Response to Omar: Part III

The continuation of Omar and my discussion. This is a response to Omar’s comments (in bold) on the first half of my comments (Part I).

Well, it’s good that you didn’t follow the usual attitude and simply considered me a terrorist only because I’m Palestinian, I appreciate that, honestly.

Is it because you’ve been treated this way before that you expected me to treat you like a terrorist, or just expectations built up from impressions?

Another thing I’m really appreciating here, the fact that you realize this is a controversy of historical resources, “two radically different sources of history”, but I have serious troubles bringing my sources here because of many facts. Most of what I know isn’t coming from reading on the internet, as a Palestinian, 50% of what we know is simply “eyewitnessed”, I don’t have to read books telling me about how Israelis are treating me! And when you grow up among elder people (politicians, fedayes,..) you have a walking sources of history, the remaining 50% is a collection of many TV documentaries, newspapers, books, and Internet. It’s hard to provide links, but I’ll try to do my best here.

I understand. Don’t feel you have to link every statement you make. Let me know where you get whatever information you have. I’ll trust you on that. Just, please, allow me the ability to call some of its reliability into question.

I’ll give you an example of what I mean. I was in a Boston area dialogue group put together after the second intifada started. At one point, one of the Palestinians in the group, whose family fled Haifa in 1948 and he grew up in a Lebanese refugee camp, told his story. Deeply touching. Especially when he was briefly in Cyprus with his father and he said, “Why can’t we live like this?” But when I asked him why his family fled Haifa, he told me they were fleeing the threat of massacres from the Zionists. Now I didn’t have the heart to tell him that the case of Haifa is the clearest one of the Jews begging the Arabs to stay, and that if his dad took the family out, it was because he believed the reports from Arab leaders about massacres and the calls to get out so the Arab armies could come in. In other words, his father had made a terrible mistake (those Arabs who remained in Haifa are in much better shape that the Palestinians in Sabra and Shatilla refugee camp, live better than the average Cypriot). So I understand that his dad would tell both himself and his family that he fled Zionist butchers in 1948 — how painful to admit so disastrous a lapse of judgment. But I also don’t think his testimony is reliable on what actually happened.

“who went to Algeria in the early 1800s“, Ok, I’m pretty sure that you don’t actually think that for the 1300 years of the Islamic empire it was all a Golden Era

Well you have to admit that that’s how it sounds from Muslims when you listen to them tell you about how well they have treated their minorities.

You have to realize that as soon as the Ottmans got in control, they started all the oppression (it doesn’t mean that it didn’t individually happen before them) not only to the Jews, but even more to the Arab Muslims, executions and exaggerated taxes were aching Arabs, Muslims, Christians, and Jews! Even the special tax (Al jezyah) that Christians and Jews used to pay wasn’t oppressive, they had to pay that tax in order not to participate in the armies of the Islamic Empire, in other words, Muslims defend their Empire’s lands, spread security, and christians and Jews don’t have to participate in that, they enjoy it only. Other than this special tax, Christians and Jews were treated just like any other Muslim elsewhere.

Here’s a good example of conflicting sources. You’re telling me what Muslims tell themselves about how they’ve treated Jews and Christians. But you also need to listen to what Jews and Christians say about this. To take one small example: in addition to the Jizya (whose weight was often calibrated to encourage conversion to Islam), Dhimmi could not either bear witness in court, nor take a Muslim to court. This is a huge disadvantage, a kind of legal apartheid that meant that Muslims could use the courts against any dhimmi with whom they were in conflict. And the reason given for this legal ruling was that anyone who could reject the truth of Islam and not worship Allah in the prescribed way had to be too dishonest to trust in court. I don’t think that people with that legal disadvantage felt that they were “enjoying” the Muslim empire. Do read the links at Eliyahu’s blog and especially the entries on Dhimmi status of Jews in Jerusalem.

As the poet Robert Burns said: “Ah would some power the giftie gie is [give us the gift] to see ourselves as others see us.” Muslims would do well to realize how it felt to be a dhimmi, not what they think dhimmis should have felt.

Actually, at the times where Europe used to seek-and-destroy Muslims and Jews in the middle ages, many Jews immigrated to the Islamic Empire because of the fact that it was the only place where Jews were actually tolerated, many Muslim Caliphas had Jews inside the Royal Castle, sometimes as physicians (Salladin, Al Ma’moon, Haroon Al Rasheed), sometimes as political advisors (Also Al Ma’amoon), and sometimes Jews participated in the Great Translation Wave, (Isaac Bin Honain), the main point is, the only place/time where Jews were tolerated was among the Muslims and Arabs.

In one sense you are right. When the medieval Christians were treating the Jews abominably, many of them fled to Islamic lands. But I’m afraid their preference for Islam was only relative. I’m not saying there weren’t good moments (like the translation projects of the 11-12th centuries in Spain). But they were short-lived and insecure, and the shift to more hostile and demeaning attitudes could come at any time. Maimonides, the famous Jewish doctor, philosopher and exegete experienced both the best (Cordoba in the “golden age”), the worst (conquest of Cordoba by Muslim zealots — the Almohades — not unlike groups like Hamas and Hizbullah, which his family had to flee), and the average (he had some not too great things to say about being a Jew in Egypt, even as the Sultan Salahadin’s doctor). I do recommend reading some non-Muslim sources on what it’s like to be a dhimmi. I do think that any Muslim treated the way the Muslims treated non-Muslims would consider it humiliating and unacceptable.

As for the time being, there are examples of this tolerance between Palestinians and Jews that I’ve witnessed my self! In Nables (my native town) there exists a minority of Jews, they’re called “Sumara.” When I was a little kid, I used to play football with them, we as Palestinians (Nabelsis) realized that those sumara are native citizens, they had been there for as long as we had been there, hence, they are treated differently than any Israeli.

That’s great. They are Samaritans and date back to the first exile (early 6th century BCE).

Another very important fact, the teachings of Quran and the prophet Muhammad highly values Christians and Jews (on what concerns how should they be treated), it’s part of the Islamic faith to believe in Christianity and Judasim, so, no matter what may have happened at some period of history between Arabs and Jews, the fact remains that Muslims are forced (by Islam’s teachings) to treat Jews with nothing but respect.

Now you have to help me here, because I gather there are more than just positive passages about Jews and Christians, and some of them are being used rather constantly these days. What horrifies and terrifies me is the waves of hatred that seem to flood the airwaves of Arab and Muslim culture. MEMRI and PMW chronicle this material in some detail, and much of it is in mainstream media. So my question to you is: are you telling me this because you believe it and live it, and everyone around you does? Or you want me to believe it (maybe you also want to believe it), but you know that’s not a very good description of the reality. Have you not heard anyone refer to the Jews and pigs and monkeys (a twist on a quotation from the Quran!?)?

Now, let’s turn to the other part, which obviously what clearifies the conflict in historical sources, let’s start with the first point.

1) “Deir Yassin took place in 1948″ “it came after decades of Arab uprisings”, fine, why would Arabs uprise? If there wasn’t a huge thing threatening them, why would they rise up?

It might be that it was because they were really threatened. But it could also be because they were victims of propaganda aimed at getting them to believe they were under threat. Haj Amin al Husseini used to incite Arabs against Zionists by sending out doctored pictures of the Dome of the Rock with a Star of David over it. That was clearly an innacurate if not dishonest depiction of Jewish intentions — even when the Jews took over the site in 1967 they did not do anything of the sort. (There’s a close parallel with the Muhammad cartoons scandal: the three worst ones [most were very mild] were not by Danish cartoonists, but by the very Imams who wanted to stir up rioting in the streets.

It’s the basic point that I want to communicate to you: there’s a difference between what we imagine drives other people and what really does. As early as 1919, Arabs were being told: “We will push the Zionists [Jews] into the sea or they will push us into the desert.” I submit to you that the Arabs have systematically been mis-informed by their leadership on the intentions and behavior of the Israelis. The Arab rioter’s comment that I quoted in an earlier post about how, even if they’ve made everyone better off, I’ve lost my sense of dominion, and I’d rather rule in poverty, suggests another reason for the rioting: not fear of being destroyed, but fear of losing dominance.

And about the example you provided, this might be the first time I hear of such a thing, I’ve checked the link, and I can’t realize how could you consider such an incident as a massacre, and actually compare it to Deir Yassin??

Are you saying they are incomparable because of the numbers involved? I consider the mass killing of civilians during “peacetime” more vicious than in the heat of war when faced with soldiers firing from behind and dressed as women.

2) “the most remarkable differences between the arrival of the Jews to Palestine and the European imperialists to Africa” So what are you basically saying here, the ARRIVAL of the Jews isn’t imperialistic? All the examples and incidents that you have written can be answered by simply asking you this:

If somebody coming from some place you don’t know where it is, decides to “ARRIVE” to your country, live beside your house, buy your land, invite other people from other places to come and live near him, start to make a military force (trained by the British), backed with an OLD political promise of getting YOUR house one day (Balfour’s promise 1917), would it really make a difference if your temporary economic status is better than before? What would you decide to do here?

This is a good and fair question. It isn’t as bad as you claim, but it’s clearly serious. No one was planning to take (rather than pay for) YOUR house one day. Indeed after 50 years of Zionist settlements there are many more Arab Muslims in Palestine than before. Take Jerusalem for example. There are many beautiful Arab houses in West Jerusalem. All of them come after the Jewish settlement, since before that, no one built a house outside the walls of the city. Why? Because they would have no protection from Bedouin raids.

But the larger issue remains. Let’s not forget that Palestine at the time was ruled by two absentee forces, the Ottomans (later the Brits) and the effendi class of landowners. The typical Palestinian had neither political autonomy nor economic independence. So the advent of a group working for a civil democracy did not necessarily challenge any freedom of the local population. On the contrary, the advent of Zionism offered real possibilities for the local population, including for an independent Palestine. But the most vocal inhabitants — not necessarily the majority — saw this in religious terms, in terms of an invasion of Dar al Islam by an population that should be dhimmi. That’s the core of the conflict.

After the Jews conquered the west bank in 1967, they literally flooded the west bank with money, the local merchants witnessed a rapid and vast economic improvement, but for how long? One month! the Jews were playing a dirty game of buying the voices of resistence. they forced the Israeli army and merchants to conduct heavy transactions with the local merchants undercover or even publically. It’s much more important to guarantee your freedom than to fill your pocket, this was the mentality of the voices that you’re talking about.

I’m a bit confused here. The statistics indicate a steady and long-range rise in all the elements of Palestinian “quality of life” statistics, from GNP to individual income, to birth rates and population rise, to institutions of higher education like Bir Zeit. What’s your evidence that this was only a month and just a trick?

As for your comment “more important to guarantee freedom than to fill your pocket,” I’m not sure that the two are distinct. People whose ruling elites do not allow them to keep most of the fruits of their labors, do not allow them political freedoms either. The Palestinian narrative pretends that before the Zionists the Arabs in Palestine were free. On the contrary, like all the other Arab commoners (masses) at the time, none of them were free and none of them are free now. Someone commented that the Arabs don’t mind being oppressed as long as it’s by their own kind. That’s the dilemma. You allow your elites to exploit you and you attack those who, not “yours” offer you a different solution to the problems of freedom, dignity and economic well-being.

3)Arabs believe in this notion because it’s true, Israel has proven to us in 1967 that it’s true, Do you want to know why do we believe in it? Why don’t you have a look at the ‘Agoura’, the Israeli coin, have a look at that map on it, and then call it a conspiracy theory conducted by Arabs! When you ask Israelis about this, they sure will laugh, because I’m pretty sure that you’re asking commoners who have no idea (don’t care) about their own history or about their own religion, ask some members of Shas, they’ll easily show off with this ambition (they’ll tell you that the lands of all Arabs ,the snakes and rats, are theirs)!! Where should categorize the Israeli imperialistic act of 1967?

The issue is not what’s on the coin, but what it means. Certainly there are Jews and Israelis who feel that the land from the Jordan to the Mediterranean should be theirs. It is the biblical borders as well as being a natural border with more security that the ’49 borders which Abba Eban called “Auschwitz borders” because of their immense vulnerability. On the other hand many of those who feel this way are willing to compromise on this in order to get on with life. It might surprise you to find out that the religious leader of Shas, Rabbi Ovadia Yossef explicitly supported the Oslo process and gave a rabbinic ruling (the equivalent of a Fatwa) permitting Israel to renounce their claim to this land for the sake of peace. And no Jew will tell you that the lands of all the Arabs are theirs.

“giving back Sinai” !!!!!!!!!!!!! ??????
I’m in total shock eversince I read this sentence, you’re trying to tell me that Israel gave back Sinai because of its good wells!! have you ever heard of 1973?

Can you explain what you think happened in 1973 that led to the return of the Sinai?

and negotiating for returning Golan! What’s that exactly? Or maybe you’re telling me that the rejection of Hafiz Al Assad’s efforts is negotiations?

Yes. What do you think happened?

Now, talk about Arabs inside Israel, tell you what, search for Azmi Bshara or Ahmad Al Tibi (both are arab representitives in the Israeli parlimant) read them, and then tell me about full rights and living under the Israeli regime.

Do you know of any Arab politicians who, without an armed party behind them, can be as publicly critical of the government of the country in which they are elected officials as they are and still be alive?

Look, I’m not telling your that the condition of Israeli Arabs is great. But I am telling you that the Israelis give more freedom and political power and educational opportunities than any Arab nation gives — not to its minorities — but to its own Arabs. No one is perfect. But under conditions of warfare with her neighbors, the Israelis have done more for their Arabs in their first 60 years than the Americans did for their blacks in their first 180 years. I’m not saying this to dismiss your complaints, but to give you some perspective. The country you live in does not even allow Jews, much less grant them any kind of political rights and protections. Isn’t this the pot calling the kettle black?

12 Responses to Response to Omar: Part III

  1. […] Part II Response to Omar: Part III I will continue to update this with more links […]

  2. Cynic says:

    Look, I’m not telling your that the condition of Israeli Arabs is great.

    I think it was 2003 that the financial situation of many towns exploded in public with the towns unable to pay their workers and there was a loud cry for the government to do something about it.
    The government agreed on condition that the towns started displaying some responsibility and tackle the nepotism, corruption and plain laxity on the part of its offices to collect the revenue due for water, sewage, maintenance etc.

    What came to light was the fact that many arab towns and villages simply did collect due rates and taxes because their residents refused to pay claiming that the money would just go to the Jews!
    But they wailed like mad and gnashed their teeth making comparisons with Jewish run areas.
    Something general in their culture to simply blame someone else for one’s troubles?

    It’s not easy for Israeli Jews to be sympathetic especially when those arab members of Israel’s Knesset are spewing seditious statements.
    The latest bit of chutzpah appeared this week when the arab MK who had called for wide arab street protest in support of Hezbollah, at the beginning of the conflict, was in Nazereth blaming Israel for the death of two arab children at the hands of Hezbollah’s rocket attack.
    BY the way take a ride through the Wadi Arrah area and see the arab mansions and all the BMWs, Mercedes etc.
    When Israel suggested including that area in the territory under PA control there was near hysteria.

  3. Antidhimmi says:

    I eagerly await Omar’s response. You are asking him to turn his entire world upside down. He’s very young and like many young people he feels more certainty than he should about matters that his culture has spent enormous energy in distorting.

    The Bourbon kings were known for their stubbornness; the politician Talleyrand is supposed to have said of them, “They have learned nothing, and they have forgotten nothing.” Is that also the problem of the Arab world. What have they learned and how have they applied the lessons.

    There are a few questions Omar really should ask himself. First, he must address the issue of the condition of Arabs, particularly Muslim Arabs in Israel. Since 1948, their numbers have increased by almost 500% and their public health status by every measure is superior to Arabs anywhere in the ME. They live longer, are healthier and better educated. Moreover, on average they are wealthier and have more opporunities for employment. They do not choose to emigrate to Arab countries because conditions are miserable and indeed fight to remain Israeli when suggestions are made to transfer land to the PA. If Israel were engaged in a genocidal posture vis a vis Arabs, how could this be so?

    Second. Israel has become a society marked by scientific and technological advancement. With no natural resources they have achieved something quite remarkable in a relatively brief period of time. Yet many Arab countries have vast educated populations and unimaginable oil wealth that could have been used to turn their societies into technological powerhouses. Why has this not happened? I hope Omar can think about these issues as he answers RLs queries.

  4. igout says:

    Hi RL,
    Whatever else the internet is, it’s the great vanity press even for us commentators. So I thought I’d put my hommage to the cabinet diplomacy of the 18th century into a 2nd edition.

    FYI: I contacted President Bush & the governments of China, India, Japan, and the EU. Basically, we’ve decided that since we all need mid-east oil, we’d prefer that the supplies not be at the mercy of the crazy people who happen to live over it. So we’ve formed OPGC–organization of petrolium guzzling nations–to take over the place and run it right. China was a little balky about hiring Israel to deal with any locals who try to interfere; they said brutal crackdowns were right up their alley, and didn’t see why we should pay somebody else to do it, but they came round. Anyway, nobody showed much interest in keeping the Islamic Republic of Iran around anymore. Ditto Syria. The French, I thought, made a really funny crack how we shouldn’t worry about that–don’t they keep saying how they like being dead? It sounded much classier in French.
    Anyway, that’s the plan. Have a nice weekend all.

    Underneath the foolery, of course, is a warning that the sympathy of the outside world is not bottomless, not when oil’s involved. My advice to your friend Omar and his friends is to cool it.

  5. MidEast War: XXVIII

    July 22, 2006 00:00 PDT Frequent updates. Scroll. Previous coverage @ right. Links to Lebanese and Israeli bloggers covering the conflict are @ Truth Laid Bear, plus a map view with pointers to the location of the bloggers in war…

  6. Ralph says:

    In paragraph 10: “… the reason given for this legal ruling was that anyone who could reject the truth of Islam and not worship Allah in the proscribed way had to be too dishonest to trust in court.” Shouldn’t this be “prescribed” rather than “proscribed?”

    yes. thank you for the correction. text amended.

  7. Now, I’m now looking at response Part III, and I’m pretty sure that we’ll reach part 1000 if we continue like this, thus, I’ll overlook many points, which I’m able to respond to, that I think it’s not significant to the current Israeli-Arab conflict, and I’m going to respond to it generally, in order not to creat needless branches of this debate.

    About the whole dhimmie thing, Both you and I agree on the fact that Muslims today, regardless to what you’re trying to prove, believe without any question that they have treated Jews with nothing but respect all over their years of dominating the world, in other words, Muslims today feel obligated to treat the Jews the same way they think their ancestors did. This is exactly what’s happening to Arab Christians who live today among Muslim Arabs, I invite to visit Jordan, Syria, Palestine, and to some point Egypt if you like to see how Muslims and Christians are living together, I’ll give you a short and recent example on that, only recently, Jordan had banned the Da Vinci Code of being showed in public theaters out of respect for the Christian Minority inside Jordan, regardless to what you may say about banning anything, but that’s an example of what’s going on.

    And another important note here, Jews were different than Christians, actually, it’s Christians who often encouraged Muslims to apply different ways of treatment upon Jews. (e.g. One of the things that Christians in Jerusalem wanted Omar Bin Al khattab to do when he conquerred/liberated Jerusalem in the 7th century was to kick the Jews out of the sacred city).

    I’m not backing off at anything here, I’m ready to flood you with endless books and incidents that show how great Muslims were in treating Jews and dhimmies, and at the same time where you wil will these books unfair and biased, the same accusation will be applied on books written by biased dhimmes who often hated Arabs and Muslims. What I’m searching for here is something that we can call “common ground”, something that we can both agree on and move on.

    I’ve revised our debates in part I and II to find the main and general points that we ought to discuss. What we have to focus on, in my point of view, is your vision about modern Israel, your vision about how peaceful and poor this modern state is, your vision of how unjustified any resistance to this state is, and most importantly, your vision of how this state isn’t causing any troubles to the Arab world but the Arab world and leaders are the ones who want to see Israel like this.

    Let me start by going through what the UN (the world) has to say about Israel; here’s a list of UN resolutions against Israel (1955-1992) (Over 30 resolutions) 106,111,127,162,171,228,237,248,250,251,252,256,259,267,
    641,672, 673,681,694,726,799
    List of SC resolutions (Over 20 resolutions)

    607,608,636,641, 672,673,681,694,726,799
    For more details of these resolutions click here .

    Not to mention what Israel is doing with constructing the apartheid wall

    This is what I can call a drop in the ocean compared to what the Palestinians are facing each day inside the West Bank and Gaza of continuous humiliation and unbelievable levels of life. I can flood your blog with endless pictures of the most disgusting and horrifing pictures in the world describing children of three and four months scattered into pieces, I can bring endless pictures clearifing the kinds of weapons your peaceful and beloved Israel have used upon poor innocent civilians, I can swamp you with hundreds of thousands of horrible stories for Palestinians describing what the Israelis did to them inside their prisons. But what would I benefit by doing that? You’re ready to justify, you’re ready to come with opposite stories, you’re ready to tell me that Israel kills and butchers civilians because terrorists hide between them! But the real story remains that this has to be one of the most ridiculous and deceitful justification anyone could come with.

    How could you prove to me or to any other Palestinian that the early Jews came and had no intention of butchering and wiping them out, while the Israelis today are commiting the most horrifing genocides in the history of man kind upon them! How could you justify to me or to anyone what the Israelis are doing today in Lebanon? How could you justify the destruction of a whole country, the unbelievable endless pounding of Bridges, Airports, Highways, and the constant slaughtering of civilians in cold blood! How could you tell me that this is the right thing to do when two soldiers of your army are kidnapped in a terrorist-free operation near the Borders!!!

    Why on earth should I (or any other Palestinian) look at Arabs inside Israel and say “ok, let’s go there” only because comparing to Jordan they relatively enjoy better conditions of freedom!!!???

    I appreciate your efforts of describing and clearifing some points in the history of this conflict, but I can’t find the words to describe to you how painful it is for me to face claims like that Israel is peaceful, or Israel isn’t an imperialistic existence!

    I can’t keep going in debates about small details while overlooking the facts on the ground! Maybe this confrontation of opposite radical sources of history be useful when we’re living in peace, maybe it might be useful when we reach to a solution to more important things.

    Regrettably, we’re goin nowhere with this debate, and this is the exact problem in the whole Arabic-Israeli conflict; negatiations had got us nowhere, the best thing that can happen is a temporal ceasefire, an agreement on the ownership of a small piece of land, but the fight will continue later. You can blame the Palestinians and hold them the complete responsibility for everything happening there, you can imagine that Israel is the peaceful innocent side of this conflict, but by doing that, your not helping any side; your intensifting the crack.

  8. Yehudit says:

    “while the Israelis today are commiting the most horrifing genocides in the history of man kind upon them!”

    This is the kind of over-the-top statement that calls into question everything else you say. You don’t know what the word “genocide” means. If the population of the Palestinian territories grows every year, and their standard of living was higher under Israeli rule than when Arafat was put in charge, obviously no genocide is taking place. There are numerous Israeli-Palestinian joint businesses and science ventures. You don’t work with people you intend to destroy.

    “How could you justify to me or to anyone what the Israelis are doing today in Lebanon? How could you justify the destruction of a whole country, the unbelievable endless pounding of Bridges, Airports, Highways,”

    Hezbullah gets arms and additional manpower from Syria and Iran. Also if Israel drives them out of one area they have to flee to another one. If the transportation infrastructure is damaged, it is harder to get the arms or move around. This is brutal to the Lebanese, but the only way to excise Hezbullah.

    “and the constant slaughtering of civilians in cold blood!”

    Again, the hyperbole. If you drop leaflets warning people to evacuate before you bomb the area, you are not killing them in cold blood, it is clear you don’t want to kill them at all. Hezbullah is very deeply dug into that territory. It pays civilians rent to keep its rockets in their homes. It does this on purpose, using civilians as human shields.

    So why is it so important to Israel to demolish Hezbollah, even at the cost of civilian casualties? Hezbullah has missiles that can reach most of Israel. There are already various bio and chem WMDs floating aound the Middle East. If Hezbullah acquires them and puts them on the tips of their rockets, they will be the ones who have the means to commit genocide. No nation would allow that to happen if they have the means to stop it. Israel must destroy Hezbollah and its munitions, whatever the cost. if Hezbullah cares about the women and children they hide behind, they will surrender.

  9. Yehudit says:

    “Not to mention what Israel is doing with constructing the apartheid wall”

    Suicide bombings dropped considerably as the wall was built. Almost every bomber who has succeeded has entered Israel where the fence wasn’t built yet. The reason it is a high wall around part of Jerusalem is because snipers on the hills were shooting into Israeli homes.

    If Egypt and Jordan had jobs for Palestinians, they wouldn’t care if there was a wall. If the Palestinian government was viable, the country would attract investment and they could build their own economy in a small area, like Singapore. Israel doesn’t owe them jobs.

  10. Cynic says:

    Why do they refer to the security fence (only some 4% is wall to stop the snipers) Israel built as an Apartheid wall?

    The Palestinians have created their own nation, people, entity so why should the Israelis be forced to live in communion with them?
    They have no common religion, language or culture so why should a multicultural mess, as it’s proving to be in Europe and elsewhere be forced on the Israelis?
    Different religions and cultures already live freely, like in the US, in Israel where there is no discrimination whatsoever based on race, religion or culture.
    Unfortunately the Palestinian culture, like its Arab brother’s (sharia) discriminates completely against non-Muslims and even against Muslim sects it does not agree with.
    Very visible is the Sunni – Shiite rift and if we look at Pakistan we find the Alawite being persecuted as well.
    The Bahai faith has complete freedom as a Moslem sect in Israel whereas it’s hounded to death in Iran.
    The Bahai’s shrine and gardens in Haifa and its other holy places in Israel stand in stark contrast to what the Muslim world has permitted the Jews. Where are the glorious Christian Cathedrals in Muslim lands?
    Need one remind people of the desecration of the Church in Bethlehem?
    As for Christian Muslim harmony one need only look back at the ‘Millenium’ Cathedral – Mosque fight in Nazareth leading up to the year 2000.
    For the Palestinians one need only look to the Taiba business for religious and cultural harmony:
    Muslims ransack Christian village near Ramallah

    The incident began on Saturday night and lasted until early Sunday, when Palestinian Authority security forces interfered to disperse the attackers. Residents said several houses were looted and many families were forced to flee to Ramallah and other Christian villages, although no one was injured.
    The attack on the village of 1,500 was triggered by the murder of a Muslim woman from the nearby village of Deir Jarir earlier this week. The 30-year-old woman, according to PA security sources, was apparently murdered by members of her family for having had a romance with a Christian man from Taiba.
    “When her family discovered that she had been involved in a forbidden relationship with a Christian, they apparently forced her to drink poison,” said one source. “Then they buried her without reporting her death to the relevant authorities.”

    Lebanon’s civil war of the 70s between Sunni, Shiite and Christian with Arafat’s PLO massacring thousands of Christians is apparently not warning enough of zero-sum religious politics.

  11. kariaz says:

    Israil (Jew) will completely missing in earth soon. There are no place to hide.

  12. osama bin laden says:

    Israel can kill,kill,kill,kill muslim but wait your turn will come soon. Just waittttttttttttttttttttttttttttt!

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