Second Draft Releases Icon of Hatred: The Wages of Folly

For Immediate Release
Friday June 10, 2007

Icon of Hatred
Latest Film by Second Draft
Richard Landes

Available on YouTube Part I and Part II.

Second Draft releases the third in the series According to Palestinian Sources. Written, researched and produced by Richard Landes, a medieval historian turned media critic, Icon of Hatred explores how the media-created icon of Muhammad al Durah’s death, helped launch a new phase of global Jihad at the dawn of the 21st century.

View Icon of Hatred in Streaming Video or download it in High Definition DVIX) for free.

To this day, most Westerners typically greet any effort to discuss the Al Durah MSM scandal with: “Fuggedaboudit! It’s over. History. Let sleeping dogs lie.” But such is not the way with blood libels. They constantly emit their poison into the information bloodstream. So once the Al Durah “lethal narrative” entered the mainstream of public opinion worldwide
, it exerted – and continues to exert — an astonishingly noxious influence, blighting our young and global 21st century.

Icon of Hatred explores

  • how PA TV took the footage of what was, at most, an Israeli error, most likely a work of Pallywood, and turned it into an accusation of cold-blooded murder, a proof of Israeli intentions to commit genocide.
  • small hezollah al durah
    (Hizbullah poster of Al-Durah with picture from October 2, of Israeli soldier firing rubber bullets at rioters protesting al Durah’s “death”, photograph October 14, 2000)

  • how this “blood martyr” became the icon not only of the “Al Aqsa Intifada,” but of global Jihad, catapulting Jihadism from the margins to the center of Muslim “street,” making suicide bombing the weapon of choice.
  • bin laden recruiting video
    (Bin Laden narrating his recruiting video in which Muhammad al Durah appears as a key, introductory section.)

  • how Al Durah became the symbol of outraged compassion in the West, fueling an anti-Zionist crusade that aligned the “human rights” and “anti-war” left with the most murderous theocrats on the globe. And how, in embracing the Muslim equation of Israel with Nazis, European intellectuals have encouraged the surge of Islamist triumphalism not only in the Middle East, but within their own countries.
  • small place de la republique 2000
    (Place de la République, Paris, October 6, 2000, amidst cries of: “Death to Israel, Kill the Jews.”)

In the history of psychological warfare, the Al Durah icon was an atom bomb, perhaps the first. No single event stirred Global Jihad Warming more ardently. We still suffer from its fallout.

Icon of Hatred offers a potent “red pill” for those who wish to awaken from the virtual reality that the MSM have spun around our understanding of the Middle East conflict with their “grand frame” of “Palestinian David vs. Israeli Goliath.” It sheds a stark light on the dynamics of war and mega-death that, hatched in the tragic crucible of the Arab Israeli conflict, now haunt this whole earth. The fate of the al-Durah Icon of Hatred offers that rare single narrative that unpeels multiple layers of the cultural folly that has placed the West in its current danger and disarray.

View Icon of Hatred in Streaming Video or download it in High Definition DVIX for free.

Icon of Hatred is Part III of According to Palestinian sources… Viewing Parts I and II first is recommended.
Part I: Pallywood (Streaming) (High Definition) (Youtube)
Part II: Al Durah: The Making of an Icon (Streaming) (High Definition) (Youtube)
Part III: Icon of Hatred Streaming Video) (High Definition DVIX) (YouTube I and II)
Part IV: Rebuking the Media (in production).

Richard Landes is Professor of Medieval History at Boston University, the animator of The Second Draft, and blogger at The Augean Stables. Having analyzed a major dossier of forgeries around the dawn of the second millennium, he has turned his attention to another, and far more dangerous constellation, that permeate our MSM at the dawn of the third millennium.

66 Responses to Second Draft Releases Icon of Hatred: The Wages of Folly

  1. […] Les médias fomenteurs de haine Cliquez sur l’image pour visionner Icon of Hatred. Pour la petite histoire, lors […]

  2. calzone says:

    “Israeli mistake” huh? Yeah, I guess so. Hey, small outrages on the big pallette often turn into large embarrassments. That’s why the IDF at first just admitted what they did, hoping the fire wouldn’t spread. I certainly can’t blame the Muslims for using this incident, they’d have been irresponsible had they not. Don’t forget, you’re dealing with the ummah.
    When I see the image of Al Durah, it just reminds me of all the other children who were killed in cold blood as a result of hate, mostly on the Palestinian side. It reminds me of the Kahane-worshipping settler group that tried to blow up the Palestinian kindergarten but were foiled at the last minute by the Israeli authorities. I guess they finally learned the Al Durah lesson. Any progress is welcome progress, even if it doesn’t stem from altruism.
    For anyone to catapault the idea that the Al Durah incident was myth or propaganda is shameful. It’s HATE. Judenhass? There’s more than enuf hass to go around. Same thing done with Rachel Corrie. It stinks. It makes me feel like Israel is the moral & intellectual backwater of Jewry.

  3. fp\ says:

    told you if you give them attention you won’t see the end of their crap.

  4. calzone says:

    Ummm, fp….I see you’ve joined another forum.

  5. fp\ says:


    is there any wonder that the arabs/muslims hold the west in contempt? for it takes a lot of ignorance and stupidity to refuse to see thru lies even when they are demonstrated in full color. with useful idiots such as the MSM, jeffb and calzone — and it’s in the nature of fools to think they are anything but — i don’t think it’s hard to figure out to whom the future belongs.

  6. Sophia says:

    Whoa. It’s one thing to read about this, another to see it on film.

    To those who are having a cow here, notably Calzone, let me you ask this: even if ONE PERSON pulled a trigger in anger, why does this reflect upon an entire nation and an entire people?

    That’s the nature of blood libel, the hatred that’s been fomented against the Jewish people: we are collectively guilty of every sin committed (or even just rumored to have been committed) by any one of us. Indeed the entire balance of the Warsaw Ghetto has been wiped clean – all guilt for the horrible persecutions and murders of the Jewish people, expunged by one bullet and the Nazi symbol, and their shame, affixed to the Jews.

    Does this make any sense at all?

    This is the key issue here and the fact is, the al Durah affair exploded into a hate fest against the entire state of Israel AND the Jewish people.

    THIS was not was an accident. It was a cynical manipulation of an ancient hate and it’s already cost thousands of lives. It’s killed the future too, maybe killed the Palestinian state, emperiled the Jewish people, destroyed so much that was good. Now little children are brainwashed to hate and kill, draped in suicide vests, innocent dances performed with miniature AK-47’s and hands dripping with the color of blood.

    How will the peacemakers proceed now to build our bridges across this gulf of rage and blood? Two women were caught recently in Israel, en route to committing suicide bombings. One of them was pregnant. She was going to kill her innocent baby along with countless innocent people.

    Those who seek reconciliation will not give up – we won’t give up. But this cynically manufactured devastation will be nearly impossible to surmount. Its poison won’t fully bloom for a generation yet to come.

    It’s especially heinous to have exploited a death in this manner, given the fact that little Jewish children have been shot out of their parents’ arms, their skulls crushed with rocks, whole buses of children blown to smithereens – and there was NO ambiguity about those murders. None whatsoever – in fact they were celebrated, they were holy.

    Today in Gaza, peaceful demonstrators were shot and killed, as they tried to shame the Hamas and Fatah militias into ceasing their insane, destructive violence.

    Shall we blame the entire Palestinian people for their deaths?

  7. fp\ says:

    this was never bridgeable and it won’t be, it’s been a delusion of the west and it is this delusion that ensures there will be no bridge.

    the west, consisting of the useful idiots, specimens of which you see here sometimes, are buying all these lies because they are ignorant, stupid and scared shitless.

    without any knowledge and understanding of history and cultures they buy the propaganda and see what the islamists want them to see: a “shitty little state” that creates all problems in the world. just get rid of it and save yourselves the trouble.

    they engaged syria and iran and look at the consequences. now they want to engage hamas, they provided money and arms to fatah which was known it would fall into hamas’ hands. the more belligerent, murderous and barbaric the arabs and iranians get, the more they are appeased by the west.

    as hanson called it: the post-west.

  8. fp\ says:

    here’s evidence:

  9. Second Draft Releases ‘Icon of Hatred’

    Little Green Footballs

    Richard Landes and Second Draft have an excellent new film in their series “According to Palestinian Sources,” examining the creation of the Mohammed al-Dura myth and its large part in the rise of 21st century jihad:…

  10. fp\ says:

    Since Hamas is committed to the genocide of the Jews, it is puzzling to know precisely what there is to engage about. Look, whisper these European and American useful idiots, there are people in Hamas talking about a ten-year ceasefire! They’re even talking about removing their endorsement of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion from their Charter!!
    As ever, Israel is today between yet another murderous rock and a genocidal hard place. And as ever, the international community which has put it there by refusing to acknowledge the real nature of this terrible conflict — and that includes Israel’s so-called friends in America and Britain — continues to make Israel’s position more, not less difficult. From Europe to Washington, siren voices call for ‘engagement’ with Hamas on the grounds that this will bring the wild men in from the cold.

    Such ignorance and naivety make one want to weep. The most likely outcome of such noises-off is that Hamas will very reasonably conclude that the more rockets they fire at Israel and the more Palestinians they throw off the top of tall buildings, the more the Europeans — whose response to brute power is invariably to prostrate themselves before it —will seize any excuse to convince themselves that, yes, these are people with whom we can do business.”

  11. Phil says:

    Fantastic video! You really put it together nicely. Now, to spread the word! (Hey, why not put your website name at the end of the video?)

    One recommendation for improvement. In the scene with Enderlin, the words on the screen say “Esther Schapira.” At first, I was thinking, “Huh? Esther is a girl’s name.” It was a little confusing.

    Also, I’m a little curious why your new video didn’t attempt to cast more doubt on Talal’s story as did your older videos. Your angle seemed to focus more on the media’s reading intentionality into the culprit’s mind. For instance, I might have simply circled the bullet holes in the wall, or circle the boy’s hand as it covers his eyes — just to let the viewers think, “hey, was that supposed to show something fishy?”

    thanks for your advice. when we put the four video-essays together into one documentary, we’ll do some of the things you suggest.

  12. Sophia says:

    I’m not so sure this isn’t surmountable, but our own minds and hearts must remain open.

    Read the anger on the Lebanese blogs about the terrorists in the camps and the bombings, especially the one today, that killed the anti-Syria MP Eido and his son, along with others.

    There are most certainly millions and millions of Arabs who will make peace in a heartbeat only to have the chance to live normal, quiet lives. They’re being victimized by these monsters too. This includes the Palestinians.

    In Algeria, more than 100,000 people were killed – some estimates are twice that – in a civil war that still simmers. I don’t believe for a moment that the average Iraqi seeks the violence that rends his country. The Egyptians are trying, with a sense of growing hopelessness, to mediate between violent factions in the PA.

    Increasingly I believe people are seeing that the true enemy is violence, terror and extremism, and that hope for all of us lies in the moderate and forgiving path.

    There is no question that people seeking modernization, compromise and a free, open future, have terrible and ruthless enemies. As Jews, our path has always been hard, the odds against us fierce. But all are not arrayed against us. In Indonesia, they’ve just hosted a Holocaust Affirmation conference – people do see that evil stalks us. There is goodness among the Muslims too.

    And if we give in to despair, then all is truly lost.

  13. fp\ says:

    sophia, it is ok to have hope, but don’t confuse it with reality. you seem to be in some form of denial of a reality that is hard for you to accept.

    Yes, there are such muslims, but they do not impact events and you mention only one of the reasons. Another one is that the west is appeasing and supporting the worst muslims and does not not allow them even to self-destruct.

    here is melanie phillips again, and what she describes can be said about almost maniac:

    Even more astoundingly, America and Israel have inadvertently — but all too predictably — helped arm the very people they are now fighting. With Israel acting as the middle-man, America has been sending weapons to Fatah to equip it in its war with Hamas. Leaving aside the small matter that Fatah, too, remains committed to the destruction of Israel and that its own terrorist affiliates have persistently attacked Israeli targets, we can now see from the Jerusalem Post the truly imbecilic consequence:

    And meanwhile the elephant in the room remains Iran, which is funding and arming Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad and Syria, not to mention waging war against the west by proxy in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    Israel remains caught in a lethal trap, because it is trying to solve a problem that it cannot solve since it did not create it. The real architects of this impasse are the countries of the free world, which have failed utterly to grasp that the Israel/Palestine conflict is but one theatre of a global struggle; not a conflict over the division of a piece of land but rather one front in a global onslaught against the west. While trying vainly to solve Israel /Palestine in hope this will calm everything else down, the free world fails to grasp that it is only by dealing with regional and global aggression that Israel/Palestine will ever be resolved. Backing the Big Lie of the justice of Palestinian statehood, which has meant in fact that a country that was victorious at its rebirth against forces that tried to wipe it out has uniquely been expected ever since to make reparations to its attackers who continue to try to destroy it and to provide them with a state from which they can finish the job, has been the biggest single incentive to terror and war in the Middle East. Only when this is acknowledged, and the free world locates the moral compass which has been absent from its dealings for decades, will there be any prospect of justice in the Middle East and peace for the world.

    I won’t hold my breath.

    bold added by rl

  14. fp\ says:

    the only thing needed for evil to triumph is for fools to sing its praises.

    Paul Bogdanor
    Chomsky’s Ayatollahs

  15. Richard Landes says:

    Sophia, you are working out of a liberal cognitive egocentric model. while there are doubtless many arabs and muslims who would like to live in peace, although it’s not clear what that would mean.

    modernization? i wouldn’t jump to that conclusion, especially if you define modernization as including principles like equality before the law, and the substitution of the law for “self-help” justice (as i do). in that case it means giving up things like honor-killings.

    you cannot project a mentality developed in civil society back onto people who grow up in honor-shame cultures where it’s not only legitimate but in some cases required that you shed someone else’s blood for the sake of your own (or your family’s, or your people’s or your religion’s) honor.

    this doesn’t mean that “they” are some kind of alien race. europeans were deeply ensconced in honor-shame culture in the middle ages… indeed, in some form or other it’s the norm. it’s not a racial but a cultural gap.

    but projecting our attitudes, acquired with great difficulty and much effort onto people who don’t share them, who in many cases despise and (rightfully) feel threatened by them, is a huge mistake…

    that’s just what Melanie Phillip’s remarks are about. moral or cultural affirmative action is a catastrophic move here. when the oslo intifada broke out in 2000, it was, as we try to show in this video, the beginning of a global jihad. by sympathizing with dastardly palestinians who “just wanted their own state”, the left encouraged precisely the forces that want to devour us. aggressive dupes of demopaths.

  16. Richard Landes says:

    to calzone

    “Israeli mistake” huh?

    no. as you may or may not know from the work i and others have done, it’s least likely an israeli mistake, most likely a pallywood libel. but my guess is you couldn’t even allow yourself to think about that one.

    Yeah, I guess so. Hey, small outrages on the big pallette often turn into large embarrassments.

    actually they don’t. most of the time they remain small (especially when they’re not even outrages). we have large outrages going on every hour or even every minute in gaza, and they don’t turn into large embarrassments. only when the israelis are blamable does it become a candidate for moral hysteria. as sophia pointed out — how does this, even if it is an israeli error, become an indictment of israel and the jews. (indeed, it was a druze commander in charge of the station that day.)

    That’s why the IDF at first just admitted what they did, hoping the fire wouldn’t spread.

    actually, that was charles enderlin’s advice to the IDF spokesman’s office. and given the world appetite for such a horrific tale, any effort to say, “hey wait a minute here…” would have been treated by the aggressive moral morons of the “progressive camp” (of which the MSM seems to have a limitless supply) as proof not only of israeli cruelty but callousness.

    I certainly can’t blame the Muslims for using this incident, they’d have been irresponsible had they not.

    yes, well you nicely illustrate the moral universe you live in. blood libels are okay for muslims, but don’t you israelis dare try to exonerate yourselves when unjustly accused.

    Don’t forget, you’re dealing with the ummah.

    huh? is this supposed to mean that the collective mind-set of islam is expected to engage in medieval blood libel demonizing and scapegoating? or what?

    When I see the image of Al Durah, it just reminds me of all the other children who were killed in cold blood as a result of hate, mostly on the Palestinian side.

    now that’s fascinating. you can’t document one case of israelis killing children in cold blood. but you can document how virtually every israeli kid (including babies) were killed deliberately, often in cold blood, by the Palestinians. and yet all you can think about when you see al Durah is the medieval fantasies that the libel intends to implant in your highly receptive brain. you are a specimen that illustrates why the west may self-destruct.

    It reminds me of the Kahane-worshipping settler group that tried to blow up the Palestinian kindergarten but were foiled at the last minute by the Israeli authorities. I guess they finally learned the Al Durah lesson.

    the israeli authorities (and society) have been vigilant against the emergence of this kind of sickness in their midst long before the al durah catastrophe. that you think they operate the way you suggest here shows how little you (want to) understand.

    Any progress is welcome progress, even if it doesn’t stem from altruism.

    wdn’t it be nice to see some progress on the other side? or do they have a free pass because… well, after all, they’re the ummah? of course with your attitude — shared by way too many — there is no non-altruistic reason for the muslims to make any moral progress. they have the free pass. and apparently altruism is not going to work. we’re working on a movie right now where one of the most vicious of the suicide-bombing gang (responsible for hundreds of israeli deaths) says, “the palestinians consider martyrdom operations an altruistic act.”

    For anyone to catapault the idea that the Al Durah incident was myth or propaganda is shameful. It’s HATE.

    fascinating. what if it were myth or propaganda?

    i don’t think anyone can rationally argue that the idea that it was deliberately done in cold blood was a manipulation of the palestinians — even if the israelis killed the boy by accident. for either part of that last statement we have no independent evidence (only “eyewitness” testimony). it’s unquestionably a myth and propaganda in the way the icon was deployed. so why is it shameful? are you saying that if it’s a myth that agrees with your world-view, then don’t anyone dare challenge it? just what do you consider honorable?

    Judenhass? There’s more than enuf hass to go around. Same thing done with Rachel Corrie. It stinks. It makes me feel like Israel is the moral & intellectual backwater of Jewry.

    Corrie was another example of someone caught up in the kind of poisonous myths that you so resist being denounced. apparently you do need your fantasies. i just wonder why they are so indulgent of palestinian depravity and so hostile to any effort on the part of israelis/jews/zionists/(in this case) empirically-based analysts to reveal the poison that courses through our information systems?

    thank you for your comments. i could not invent someone like you. i’d be accused of libeling the left with caricatures.

  17. fp\ says:

    the west does not just encourage it, it actually supports and helps it. given that the islamists know what their objective is — jihad — when they see the west bending over backwards to do that, they hold the west in contempt as weak and decadent, which only invites further pounding, which invites further appeasement, which invites…

    sophia just cannot accept that because (a) she cannot put herself in their heads (b) the implications of acceptance are too scary. for civilized people there is always a rational solution. they’re incapable to deal lack of such.

  18. fp\ says:

    rl, don’t know why you persist, when you’re playing poker with a dead hand.

    btw, when they say “you’re dealing with the ummah” they validate my claim that they’re scared shitless and that they just want to signal “me good infidel, me believe your propaganda” so that they will be spared.
    what they don’t understand is that this is precisely what is being held in contempt by the ummah.

    indeed, there is evidence that when israel acts with force, they still hate it, but they respect it. it’s when pathetic idiots like olmert or barak or peres play nice that they intifadas out of contempt.

  19. fp\ says:


  20. fp\ says:

    and now the barbarians have the might of google/youtube behind them:

  21. fp\ says:

    and here come the moderates:

  22. fp\ says:

    more moderates:

  23. fp\ says:

    and here’s the folly of the west’s incompetent involvement in iraq and palestine:

  24. fp\ says:

    hanson puts it well too:

    An alien from Mars would almost instantly diagnose the problem of the Palestinians from simply listening to their inane apologists: The problem is not the acquisition of the final seven percent of the West Bank denied in the offer to them at Camp David, but the pathology of a victim culture, one that has learned, through playing the card of terror with simultaneous appeals to multicultural guilt, how to shake down Westerners for their money, attention, and pity.

  25. fp and Richard have stated the case elegantly and completely- with one exception. The real 20 foot tall 15 foot wide elephant in the room is actually hiding behind that 10 foot tall 7foot wide Iranian elephant. It is the continued hemorrhage of wealth from the west to Iran, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Venezuela and Libya.
    Oil wealth is the moral equivalent of welfare payments for despots. Just as the liberality of the U.S. and Western Europe’s welfare systems have created an underclass of un-wed mothers and disadvantaged (culturally crippled) children, The un-earned ease, excessive volume and overwhelming power of oil wealth has created a global Jihad complex that is entirely independent of the economic restraints that life, nature and the market economy usually put on failed ideas and systems.
    They can be (and have been) humiliated by their own irrationality, ineptitude and defeats, but then, we keep sending them more vast amounts of money to rebuild, redesign and make eve more devastating weapons.
    We have to start talking about this. The world must come to understand that they are squandering fabulous resources endowed on them by an accident of nature to foment death, repression, bigotry and hatred on a global scale.
    We can be as right and righteous as we want to be but unless we can get everyone to see the truth about the Oil Loot and the Oligarchy of evil it has created, we will never convince the society as a whole that Israel and The West are both David fighting a Goliath of our own making. As long as that Goliath has the money to finance the global jihad, keep (and arm) the “Palestinians” in their refugee camps and to buy outright sycophants like Jimmy Carter and George Galloway, right and reason cannot prevail.

    As Richard pointed out in his “Fom the Nile to the Euphrates” post:

    “Awareness? not until people in the West tell them that this is nonsense and says more about them than about Israel.”

    We can tell them all we want but the Oil Loot is the buffer between them and the reality that will force them into awareness. We need to have an Organization of Petroleum Importing Countries to enforce that reality…

  26. Sophia says:

    RL, fp,, I grasp what you’re saying here.

    Nevertheless whereas I see the bad I also see the people in Lebanon, the reformers in Syria, indeed even the secular members of Fatah and other Palestinians – people in Egypt and Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Dubai, Turkey and Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia, who are battling for a more modern, secular and open society. We see this of course in Iraq. There are people in Iran and expatriot Iranians who in no way shape or form fit the stereotypes.

    The West, in the name of expedience, has supported and armed people like Saddam, and the Soviets supported and armed the Syrian Ba’ath, Nasser, Libya, PLO. We didn’t react properly in 1979. We armed the mujaheddin, thinking to ensnare the Soviets – not realizing we were opening a whole other can of worms. I think the current Administration and even people in Europe haven’t reacted quickly enough to the end of the Cold War and the emergence of new geopolitical realities.

    At the same time we well-meaning Americans and Europeans, via UNRWA, have willy-nilly been providing food, shelter and education to people in the “camps” who have included some of the worst radicals as well as innocent children. I understand UN supported schools have actually been reinforcing the idea of “return” to Israel.

    We should have been working to get rid of the camps, but for some reason have bought into the paradigm that has allowed Palestinians to remain in ghettos and institutionalized refugees for almost 60 years. In fact I’m taking part in a discussion thread on Harry’s where one person, supposedly a political scientist, claims that to do otherwise is to commit “peoplecide” against the Palestinians!

    Worse, we sent a lot of arms and in hindsight, bringing Arafat back from exile and giving him a Nobel Prize and entrusting the Palestinian people and the peace process to him was insane. And, the reaction of the hard-core antiIsrael factions was predictable: signing the Oslo Accords was seen as a formal surrender, an acknowledgement that 1948 really was a defeat. At that point the terrorist attacks increased dramatically. Even the intellectuals, like Said, felt that negotiated peace lacked honor and war was the only proper way forward – as RL says, this paradigm is in direct contradiction to anything that makes sense in our world.

    So – yes. We have really screwed up. I’m worried that by putting James Baker “realism” back in power we will screw up even worse, we’ll abandon our friends, abandon the reformers, and reward our enemies in the name of short-term expedience. Of course the power of the oil industry has always played a major role in our foreign policy and this has victimized Israel AND liberalizing forces from the beginning: KSA itself reflects both the most atavistic and some slowly emerging progressive forces, waging a slow internal war and throwing off sparks in all directions along with an amazing amount of money.

    So yes, there really are forces arrayed against us and against the West. But there are also people who seek to modernize the Middle East. They too are victimized by the same forces that victimize us. And we can’t ignore the fact that those people exist. Some of them are heads of state, like Adbullah of Jordan, Sinoira of Lebanon – possibly even Abdullah of Saudi Arabia.

    These people are anything but stupid, they’re cosmopolitan, sophisticated and well-educated. Mubarak is pragmatic,though the people of Egypt really hate Israel due to endless propaganda. That in itself obviously is a huge problem throughout the region. But it can be countered!

    Egypt and other regions are increasingly under the sway of Wahhabist Islam from KSA. But there are liberals there too, though they’ve been intimidated by the jailing of bloggers: supressing MB has also resulted in the suppression of progressives and reformers. One thing that keeps Assad in power is the fear of what or who might replace him.

    The people of Turkey, though, have demonstrated by the hundreds of thousands against an Islamist takeover of their state. The people of northern Iraq – the Kurds – I’m sure you have read Michael Totten’s journals about them. They are quite sympathetic to the West and even toward Israel.

    So, maybe I’m projecting but I think I’m also seeing some economic and political and social realities that are ALSO important and they provide an opportunity for positive change.

  27. Sophia says:

    Yaacov and I posted about the same moment and we both mentioned oil and the huge wealth associated with it.

    I’m wondering about something associated with that: RL, have you studied the importance of professional public relations firms in spreading antisemitic propaganda? I’ve read that a lot of money has been spent promoting the Palestinian cause but to what extent that has included deliberately demonizing Israel I don’t know.

    But the idea of slick Madison Avenue firms crafting propaganda based on the Protocols really makes me nervous – has anybody studied this?

    i have heard that the palestinians went to madison ave. in 1967 and they told them to stop claiming they want to wipe out the israelis. it was long in coming (not honorable), but it’s been a fantastic move. as for more recent stuff, i wouldn’t at all be surprised. interesting idea. anyone have any ideas?

  28. fp\ says:

    sophia, i am sorry but even though you say you grasp, i don;t think you do. the way you see things is exactly what causes the west to self-destruct.

  29. fp\ says:

    wouldn’t surprise me — remember the PR firm who brought the saudi prince’s daughter to testify before congress about the plight of kuweit caused by saddam attack? How easy it is to fool americans, ain’t it?

    The PR firms, like all corporations, will do anything for a buck — one in the UK has just been caught trying to sell nuclear technology to iran — but i don’t think their contribution is critical, the demonization seems to increase quite well without them, thank you.

  30. Michael B says:

    Great, and true, commentary. Melanie Phillips’ final graph in the link provided above (here), the partially boldened excerpt above, is a brilliant, an illuminating summary. (Entirely consonant with other commentators like Glick and Nirenstein, and entirely inconsonant with the Judts, the Kushners and Spielbergs, and so many others who help shape, and lull, masses of popular opinion.)

    Yet as brilliant and illuminating as Phillips’ commentary is, succinct and well crafted, it can’t really be said it’s a particularly profound insight since it reflects upon what should be apparent to most everyone – most all the relevant facts are available for all to see, at least so for those who choose to see them. It’s largely the ideology driven, media driven and oil driven chimeras that serve to obscure those otherwise apparent realities.

  31. fp\ says:

    ideology and dogma are the enemies of knowledge and reason and, therefore, of civilization.

  32. fp\ says:

    i would also add that the west simply cannot contemplate the implications of the problem as defined by phillips. if she is correct, not only have they been wrong and self-destructive, but they have brought themselves to a point where they must defend themselves against barbarians, which is precisely what they have been trying to avoid, because they are neither willing nor capable to, particularly with large 5th columns in their midst.

    when was the last time europeans fought for itself?
    sweden and holland preferred to commit suicide than to fight.

  33. fp\ says:

    Just read the following paragraphs from the same article in haaretz. I gotta pinch myself to see if I am dreaming. Are the americans devoid of any brains?
    It appears that way.

    “In the wake of the Hamas takeover of the Gaza Strip, United States said Thursday that the administration of U.S. President George W. Bush will now work to prevent the violence from spilling over to the West Bank…

    Prime Minister Ehud Olmert also intends to tell Bush that Hamas’s coup d’etat must be contained in the Gaza Strip, and not allowed to occur in the West Bank as well, a government official told Haaretz on Thursday…

    Washington will urge Israel to reconsider loosening its military grip on the West Bank. Israel will also be requested to unfreeze the Palestinian tax funds it has been withholding from the PA. The money and further funding will help boost Abbas’ new emergency government.”

  34. fp\ says:

    in fact read the whole thing:

    peace with whom? and for what?

    this is now bordering on mental illness.

  35. Michael B says:

    Well, at base, I think we all have our ideologies (e.g., classical liberal forms of governance) and dogmas (first principles, in phil. terms), but I was implicitly speaking to the more deleterious ones now at play, reflected in Islamicists on the one hand and those “5th columnists” on the other hand. But I agree completely with your subsequent comment; I think Phillips’ analysis, especially so as summarized in her final graph, is highly probative.

  36. fp\ says:

    >we all have our ideologies (e.g., classical liberal forms of governance) and dogmas (first principles, in phil. terms)

    what we have philosophies, not ideologies. and those are not dogmatic in the sense that they are modified if there is evidence proving them wrong.

    soviet communism and fascism did not changed based on counter evidence. those systems went down the drain without their believers accepting the ideology was wrong. islamist countries have produced nothing but misery and yet not only does the dogma not change, but it actually spreads all over the world, to produce more misery.

    the problem is that no matter how obvious the islamists make their intentions and act upon them, the west refuses to see.

    the us and israeli reaction to the gaza takeover is imbecillic. and the israel-boycotting orgs are now talking about one-state solution just when the islamists have declared gaza an islamic state.

    as far as I am concerned, the west is committing suicide and events have reached a point where recovery is highly unlikely.

  37. Michael B says:

    fp, hmmm, interesting, at least potentially so.

    I don’t want to get lost in arcane definitions and also don’t wish to get lost in semantics. On the other hand I think there’s something fruitful here as well. I believe I agree with the spirit of what you’re forwarding. I’d only say that among the “first principles,” philosophically understood, is a warranted self-criticism, in turn leading to self-corrections as well. On the other hand if “self-criticism” is viewed as the only underlying first principle (even barring basic moral substrates), then we’re likely to fall into Habermas’s concern with a defeatist rationalism, overly corrosive forms of deconstructionism and relativism, etc.

    In terms of ideologies vs. philosophies, if you care to think of “ideologies” only in a negative or pejorative sense, that’s fine, but that then becomes a semantic issue as I’m viewing it. I tend to view philosophical discourse less in continental than analytical terms, and view “ideology” in a neutral sense, hence would contrast a classical liberal social/political ideology favorably with totalitarian ideologies. But again, that only by way of explaining how I’ve viewed the terms rather than quibbling over semantics.

  38. fp\ says:

    here’s another quote by melanie which sees the west’s blindness as an opportunity to exploit the west’s demise. what the left could not do by itself it does now by exploiting islamism:

    and here’s the original:

    and here’s more from phillips on the uniqueness of jew hatred:

    and here’s her piece on the EU dangerous hypocrisy and censorship:

  39. Michael B says:

    “the problem is that no matter how obvious the islamists make their intentions and act upon them, the west refuses to see.”

    With this and much of the remainder I largely agree, though am not quite as pessimistic, though admittedly am close to it at times. Again, I think Phillips’ final graph in the previously referenced link is something of a succinct, prismatic master-statement, genuinely illuminating across a broad range.

  40. fp\ says:

    i did not mean to go to deep into these matters either. i was using ideology in the sense in which communism, nazism and islamism are: rigid, dogmatic utopias. this is one valid way to use the term, but i did not say it is the only way.

    such dogmas are inherently totalitarian and self-destructive and thus distinct from what i termed philosophies, which are not.

    one validation of my argument is that the current left has not given up its ideology even though it failed abysmally and was discredited in practice; ditto for the islamists. and there are still nazis around.

    what melanie and spyer are saying is that they found indirect ways to explot the weaknesses of liberal societies to try to achieve what they cannot possibly achieve directly. and liberal society is blind to it.

  41. fp\ says:

    well, i am not pessimistic, but realistic and it is not very pleasant given that optimism is a survival mechanism.

    i simply dk how one can remain optimistic in the face of what’s going on in the me, western europe and the us and beyond (thailand, philippines, malaysia, indonesia, the balkans), the rabid antijewish hatred that has not only surfaced, but become fashionable everywhere, and the instinct of the civilized world to appease and prostrate before the raw power and barbarian of the islamists barbarians.

    but i sure hope that i am wrong.

  42. Michael B says:

    yes, I think we agree at the level of essense, in terms of the fundaments at play.

  43. Michael B says:

    too, i fully understand the hesitation with using the word “optimism,” since beyond what it formally denotes, it also carries some excess baggage in terms of its connotations. In the end it cannot, in terms of more serious comprehensions and articulations, reduce to an either/or choice between “optimism” and “pessimism.”

  44. Kurtlane says:

    Back to Mohammed al-Dura case.

    What no one to my knowledge has explored is the connection between the murderer (whoever he was) and the cameraman Talal Abu Rachme. Since we now know that the bullets came from the front, and the cameraman took his pictures from the front, how probable is it that the cameraman did not notice the shooter?

    I wish tests would be done to answer this question. I think it is highly improbable. Which means that either the cameraman chose on the spot not to show the shooter, or (much more probable) the cameraman and the killer were in cahoots to begin with. (This would also explain why the cameraman was in just the right spot to take his pictures.) If so, this makes Talal Abu Rachme accessory to murder. I have no idea why no one has explored this angle.

  45. fp\ says:

    simply put, we’re talking about the chances of the west changing its current behavior AND reversing the trend in the phillips’ sense. iow, in this context optimism means chances at least better than 50%, but probably arount 70-80% or more; and pessimism as the other way around.

    btw, i agree that phillips’s was not a non-trivial insight, but obviousness is not a guarantee that the west sees it.

  46. Michael B says:

    yes, indeed.

  47. Sophia says:

    fp, with respect, I’m going to defend myself from your charges that I represent “what is going to cause the West to self-destruct”.

    Baloney, sir, with respect. You have no idea who I am or my life experiences and I frankly think your point of view is dangerously black and white.

    An inability to see reality can come in many different packages and one of them is the delusion that everybody on the planet or within a certain group is the same and is your immutable enemy.

    Many people ARE the enemies of the West, of Israel, of the Jewish people, but many are not. Even among the Palestinians, as reported in an article today in Ha’aretz, people in Ramallah are declaring that the West Bank is a different nation than Gaza. And in fact this was observed in 1969 by George Mikes: Gaza was already a sullen, unhappy, radical place compared to the West Bank. I don’t know why exactly but it was – possibly because Egypt had locked people up in the Gaza strip within sight of their former fields, within miles of their relatives in Egypt. And, it had already been a launching pad for attacks on Jews in the 1940’s.

    In fact if you study modern Palestinian history the shape of the current internecine violence was apparent in the 1930’s – earlier even: radical elements, particularly those affiliated with the al Husseini clan, murdered, intimidated and drove away moderate and pro-Western people who got along with both the British and the Jews. Even after the partition in 1947, Arab objections to it were not monolithic but the radical voices – again, still associated with al Husseini – spoke the loudest. That doesn’t mean the moderates weren’t there. In fact one of them, Abdullah I of Jordan, had had good relations with the Yishuv and was shot and killed by a member of the Husseini clan.

    It bears repeating that much of the poison that infected the Palestinians didn’t come from Islam or from the East – but from British antisemites and the Nazis. So let’s make sure we choose our targets wisely. We can’t cure the disease if we don’t recognize the source of the illness! Yes there is innate judenhass in the Quran and in the dhimmitude imposed upon minorities under Islam – but much of the truly virulent stereotyping comes not from the East but from the West.

    Are you sure our worst enemies aren’t still there and not among the Arabs? I don’t think the Nazis ever went away for that matter – I think they just went underground. So much of what we’re seeing emergent now has perhaps, like a cicada, just been waiting – waiting. How else do you explain it really – the swastika imposed on the Mogen David? Listen to Nasrallah – he’s quoting THE PROTOCOLS, not an Oriental text!

    And, it’s self-defeating of Westerners to assume that the East, for want of a better term, is a monolith. It isn’t. It’s much more complex and nuanced than that. And by the same token, as I have just pointed out, some of the most poisonous, antisemitic, absolutist and primitive philosophies ever invented come from EUROPE.

    In fact, what you call “Western Civilization” has in fact been heavily influenced BY THE EAST, indeed where do you think Judeo-Christian philosophy emerged? And Greece is actually on the fault lines between East and West, and its mythologies and philosophies, including its development of democracy, similarly reflect heavy eastern influences including the worship of powerful female dieties from Asia Minor. Modern Christian imagery of eternal life probably came from Egypt! And we see the Celtic tree of life in Persia also – and in Hebrew imagery as well: there are underlying archetypes that transcend time and space and culture. So it’s a false assumption to begin with that there is some kind of absolute division between Western Civilization and the Oriental world. Nevertheless that perception has dogged us for centuries.

    Alexander the Great was a visionary who saw that East and West could be linked and there have been many people who are defacto imprinted with the influences of both worlds. That, sir, includes the Jews – especially Jews close to Oriental culture or of Oriental descent. We have ourselves lived successfully from Spain in the West all the way to China, and since the Diaspora were most vigorously persecuted, not in Central Asia, but in Christian Europe.

    Now, some see Islam – indeed only the worst aspects of it – militant political Islam – extreme sects – Jihad! – but I see the people, and the fact that cultures and religions much older than Islam still underpin their cultures and influence their art, language and mythology to this day. Jews are not separate from this cradle of the East, but an integral, living part of it! Thus I see cracks in the wall, fingers of light. Tell me you’ve never met a kindred spirit on one of the Middle Eastern blogs?

    To my mind, the threat to the West, to any culture, is ANY type of absolutism, the kind of thinking and blind reflex action that extinguishes thought, philosophy, creativity and liberty. That can come from any direction: from Nazism, militant Islamism, totalitarian Communist dictators like Stalin. Clearly it can also arise from stupidity and from an idiotic refusal to perceive a threat, from passivity – and sometimes cultures die because they just run out of vigor and blood.

    But a fatal decay can also arise from an inability to see in color, and reject out of hand opinions which don’t coincide exactly with the norm.

    And mine don’t. That doesn’t make me a threat to Western civilization, sir.

  48. Sophia, you present a fine and impassioned defense of an almost classical Liberal approach to the problem. I appreciate the honesty, intellect and passion you bring to it. However, there are a couple of important points that you are missing.

    Most importantly, this is not about anti-Semitism. It is not even about hatred or enemies of the west. It is about The Caliphate. You are making the mistake of seeing the whole world through your western prism and imagining that the Caliphatists see you the same way.

    Lest you think I am being too “black and white” go back to the “kindred spirits” you meet from the Middle East on the internet and inquire of them whether or not they believe in The Caliphate. They may be very nice people who are drawn to you and to whom you are drawn but if they believe in The Caliphate, and even most of the most “moderate Muslims” do, then they believe in the desirability of world-wide dominion of Shari’a law. If they are nice to you it is likely that they are being polite (and cagey) enough not to mention that they assume you’ll be reasonable and convert to Islam when you are asked/forced to.

    It is not a question of “see(ing) the east as a monolith”, as you put it. It is the ability to understand that what is different about what is happening today in the Muslim world and the residual background of anti-Semitism in the west is that in Islam it occurs as a an integral part of a millennial successionist movement which, as Nazism and Communism did in their heyday, envisions a world conquest by persuasion, intimidation and bloodshed- what ever works.

    As far as I am concerned, anyone is entitled to believe that their religion (whatever it may be) is the “one true faith”. What they are not entitled to is, in any way, to believe that non-members of that blessed faith should have any fewer rights or less human dignity than “the faithful”. It is the underlying assumption of those who believe in The Caliphate that the entire world should live under Muslim rule and Shari’a law and you can only be a good Muslim if you believe in bringing it about.

    The Caliphate, by the way, is not the jolly, rollicking world of Walt Disney’s Aladdin. Nor is it even the hell on earth that was Afghanistan under the Taliban or the Insane purgatory of today’s Iran. The world-wide Caliphate is the entire earth gone mad. Women being beaten, hung and stoned to death for no other crime than having been raped by a gang of perverted Caliphists who have been raised to think of women not as human beings but as “meat” or weapons of the devil. The Caliphate will be a place where the ancient dhimmi status will be revived. Dhimmi-hood in the ancient Caliphate meant that Christians, Jews and anyone else who is not a Muslim will have protection under the law only in so far as the mercy of the local mullah allows.

    It is Caliphate Islam that won’t accept a Jewish state in the Middle East because it is considered an affront to the will of Allah that Jews should not only not be subject to Islamic rule but might have Islamic citizens living in a Jewish country. It is Caliphate Islam that so stultifies the lives of its people that they have to emigrate to western countries only to reject the values that make those countries better places to live. Belief in the Caliphate justifies the mass murder of innocent office workers in Manhatten, school children in Beslan and tribal rivals in sub-Saharan Africa. The belief in and desire for the Caliphate is the difference between conservative Islam and the pernicious terrorists that endanger all of mankind for the sake of a utopian nightmare.

    Is it fair to call it a Utopian nightmare? A cursory reading of Islamic history proves that the Caliphate idea deserves to be thrown into the same garbage dump of bad ideas and hideous failures that now holds Communism and Nazism. Would it be peaceful as they claim? Well, we know that the track record is not good. The Prophet Mohammad established a vast and secure Caliphate across a great expanse of territory, yet as soon as Mohammed died people began murdering each other to determine his successor. Right down to the present day, the issue of who the true leader should be (and should have been) is the primary divider in the Islamic world. Shias and Sunnis kill many more of each other than Americans do of either over it; and the Sunni,/Shia divide is entirely derived from the original disagreement about who should have been the first Caliph after Mohammed. Still, some Muslims continue to believe that as soon as they get Israel out of the way and they take over the western governments by demographic means there will be a world-wide peaceful caliphate. That way lies ruin and madness.

    Sophia, you are much too smart not to see that the only absolutism here is The Caliphate. Nazism and Communism are dead. They were killed by the better impulses and core belifes of Western Civilization. We must never surrender those principals to the emotional appeal to be “open to diversity” which is what you are skirting around when you say, “…but I see the people, and the fact that cultures and religions much older than Islam still underpin their cultures and influence their art, language and mythology to this day. Jews are not separate from this cradle of the East, but an integral, living part of it! Thus I see cracks in the wall, fingers of light. Tell me you’ve never met a kindred spirit on one of the Middle Eastern blogs?“

    Another post of mine adresses uses this quote from D.H.Lawrence to illustrate the pitfall of, „…seeing the people“ and glorifying their rich cultural diversity.

    “It is impossible for white people to approach the Indian without either sentimentality or dislike. The common, healthy, vulgar white usually feels a certain native dislike of those drumming aboriginals. The highbrow invariably lapses into sentimentalism like the smell of bad eggs. Why? – Both reactions are due to the same feeling in the white man. The Indian is not in line with us. He’s not coming our way. His whole being is going a different way from ours. And the minute you set eyes on him you know it. And then, there are only two things you can do. You can detest the insidious devil for having an utterly different way from our own great way. Or, you can perform the mental trick, and fool yourself and others into believing that the befeathered and bedaubed darling is nearer to the true ideal gods than we are. The Indian way of consciousness is different from and fatal to our way of consciousness. Our way of consciousness is different from and fatal to the Indian. The two ways, the two streams are never to be united. They are not even to be reconciled. There is no bridge, no canal of connection. The sooner we realize this, and accept this, the better, and leave off trying with fulsome sentimentalism, to render the Indian in our own terms.”

    I want to be clear, I am in no way saying (and Lawrence wasn’t either) that there is anything wrong, defective or inferior about the Native American. I am saying two things:
    1. Once exposed to Western Civilization the Indian way of life was doomed.
    2. The life and culture of Indians was so vastly different from ours that it is simply impossible for us to understand the magnitude of the difference.

    That being understood, Lawrence had it exactly right and his perception is equally valid when applied to the modern confrontation with Arabian Caliphate Islam. The “highbrows” he was referring to correspond precisely to today’s modern liberals and the rest of the progressive left wing. That fulsome sentimentality he identified in the highbrows is more than matched by the guilty/romantic response of today’s left to the idiotic, provocative accusations of humiliation, cultural degradation and imperialism leveled at all of the west by the Caliphatists.

    Civilizations do not die because they “run out of blood and vigor”, they die because their core ideas become outworn and their citizens loose belief in them. Consider that to imply that The West might be running out of vigor and blood is the same kind of self-destructive liberal nonsense as Jimmy Carter’s public statement that the economic funk for which his relativistic policies were responsible was “some kind of malaise” endemic in the society. Real leadership from Ronald Reagan proved Carter wrong in short order, of course. No one is accusing you of being an enemy of Western Civilization, just of not being strong in its defens. We must have the courage to stand up for our culture and discriminate between right and wrong- even if it seems harsh sometimes.

  49. fp\ says:

    well, i don’t think that the length of messages will convince me. may i suggest succinctness?

    anyway, i stand by my comments.

  50. fp\ says:

    this is a video that should be spread around, although nothing will convinced the closed minds:

  51. fp\ says:

    seems like melanie phillips agrees with my diagnosis of the demise of reason:

  52. Cynic says:

    #25 Sophia when you say :

    At the same time we well-meaning Americans and Europeans, via UNRWA, have willy-nilly been providing food, shelter and education to people in the “camps”

    you show that the context is missing.
    At the behest of the Arabs and their supporters the UN “tarred and feathered” Israel when it started constructing housing and infrastructure in Gaza, for example, after June 1967 demanding that those “Palestinians” who had moved from the squalor of the camps to houses with running water etc., be returned to the camps.
    Why Palestinians Still Live in Refugee Camps
    UNRWA was the implement used by the Arab League and those in ‘league’ with them to keep the pot boiling.
    (Since the “Second Intifada” they have been involved up to their necks in supposrting Hamas and Islamic Jihad in Gaza)
    It was the Israelis who after winning the Six Day War built clinics, which among other things reduced the infant death rate, hospitals, schools and universities for the Arabs in the “occupied” area.

    When one looks at the region one must look at the big picture and also take into account European behaviour for it was after the next war between Israel and her neighbours that, under French tutelage the Euro Arab Dialogue was started in the 70s.
    Not for nothing they continue to spice the stew with their “aid” – just cast your mind back to the behaviour of Chris Patten and the money they dumped in Arafat’s lap.

  53. Cynic says:

    Here is a link to an article translated by MEMRI (beware Jeffb and calzone) by an Egyptian

    “The All-Against-All Infighting… [Has] Become the Mental and Psychological Makeup of the Palestinian People”

    “The culture and psychology of violence has been able to take possession of the Palestinian people for two reasons. The first is that the discourse of violence had already managed to be the only one on the scene, which was emptied of any counter-discourse when the rational thinkers fled or were forced to keep out of sight – [either] out of desperation or in order to preserve the wellbeing of themselves and their families amidst the vast flood of feelings of violence that began to sweep away everything in its path.
    “The second reason is that the predominant discourse of violence, most of which was formed by the religious discourse, was not the discourse of a means that attempts to achieve a goal – for instance, the liberation of the homeland – but rather was a discourse of violence and sacred killing in the name of jihad, which the literature of violence considered to be a duty that had been neglected and which needed to be carried out by every believer. [This was written,] for instance, in ‘Abd Al-Salam Farag’s book The Neglected Duty, which has been an authoritative source for the jurisprudence of jihad since the 1970s.”

  54. fp\ says:


    despite her protestations, sophia just does not get it.

    she refuses to accept what is obvious: that it is precisely the well-meaning that has fed the conflict and has been exploited by the arabs to shake the west for money, attention and pity (while holding it in contempt for its stupidity), rather than building themselves a civilized society.

    and my sense is that she just won’t see what she does not want to see: that the best of intentions can have the worst of unintended consequences.

    when you’re in a hole, stop digging.

  55. Richard Landes says:

    from fp who had trouble posting


    it’s rather more difficult than you think.

    no matter what innovation and technology will achieve, the US will have to change fundamentally in ways that americans are not accustomed to: the era of highways, suburbs, walmart malls, cars and imports of everything made in foreign countries will be over. such a restructuring will have huge economic and social dislocations which may well be destructive. this is pretty well documented by james kunstler at his clusterfuck nation site.

    here’s a couple of excellent discusions of the subject:

    That’s precisely why the elite and media are bending over backwards to tell the public what it wants to hear — that we’ll innovate our way out of this and continue as we are — and prevent the debate to reach the surface. and that, in turns, prevents taking the necessary steps to avoid it from blowing in our faces when it’s too late.

  56. Rob says:

    Richard, I’m a bit puzzled or perhaps not understanding. In your first film on al-Durah, you convinced me the whole thing was faked, particularly by the footage showing the boy moved after he was supposedly shot dead, analyses of the angles of fire, etc.

    In ‘Icon of Death’, you entertain ‘accidental death by the Israelis’ as a possible cause of death, and do not (unless I missed it) restate the argument that the whole event was a fake.

    Could you clarify?

  57. Cynic says:

    #54 fp,

    Just to rub it in so to speak here is Gadhafi:
    Arab League expresses support for Abbas, urges cease-fire

    … “The Palestinian issue has to be left to the Palestinians to deal with. Arabs have to stay away of the problem. What have Arabs done for the Palestinians? They have only exploited the issue for their own interests,” Gaddafi told Al Jazeera television.

  58. fp\ says:

    what’s the world down to, when ghadafi talks sense?
    must be on drugs.

    seriously though, why didn’t HE do anything? he had the resources.

    you just gotta take one look at Lybia to know why. he did to his own people what he says the arabs did to the palestinians.

  59. Cynic says:

    With reference to my comment above, #52, with regard to UNWRA here is another point of view from History News Network


    On September , Israel left the Gaza Strip. The next day, four synagogues went up in flames. A cheering alliance of young men from Hamas and Fatah hailed these desecrations as bonfires celebrating the future of an independent Palestine.
    Eighteen months later, fighters from the two organizations were still co-operating in attacks on their hated neighbor. By June 2007 their Kassam missiles had killed 11 Israelis. In that same period, some 600 Palestinians became victims of internecine warfare. Thousands more were wounded and half the population traumatized by a relentless chain of revenge slayings. Hidden behind masks, even brothers were at each other’s throats.
    That is how demographer Gunnar Heinshon begins his most timely article entitled Gaza is fertile ground for anger.

    for all that Gadhafi is, the criticism is a slap in the Arab’s face especially since some years before he objected to being described as Arab instead of African.

  60. fp\ says:

    ghadafi keeps reinventing himself in desperate efforts to get anybody to pay attention to him. his african period is not any different. he’s a nutter.

    i don’t think the arabs give him much thought.

  61. Eliyahu says:

    The anti-Israel side, which comprises not only Arabs but Westerners, especially Britishers, has deployed an immense array of lies against Israel. We ought to recognize that psychological warfare, featuring this array of lies presented in all sorts of manners and media, visually, aurally, in print, etc., is the main force deployed against us. It aims not only against Israel but against Jews as such.

    I’m aware that certain Jews participate in this psywar campaign, including officials of all sorts of goody goody “human rights” and “peace” groups, from Peace Now to B’Tselem to Amnesty International’s representative in Israel, one Amnon Vidan and another psywarrior named Uri Gordon. You should read Gordon’s recent column in the JPost to see how a slick psywar text is formulated.
    Gordon actually boasts of the psywar effect of his demo against the Six Day War. Vidan recently demonstrated his psywar skills when discussing Amnesty’s recent anti-Israel, Judeophobic tract. Our own favorite Mr Pants [calzone] is a rather repulsive specimen of a creature taken over by contemporary Judeophobic psywar messages. He can’t even consider the possibility that the al-Durah film was a doctored one for the purpose of manipulating public opinion.

    But the biggest lie of all is that of a so-called “palestinian people” which was not heard of until the 1960s. This lie was invented by psywar experts for several purposes, one of them to prevent peace between Israel and the Arabs. So those who want peace should reject the lie of a “palestinian people.”
    Arab expert witnesses testifying at the Anglo-American Commission of Inquiry denied that where was ever such a place as “palestine” in all history. It was just part of Syria.

    The PLO charter in its first article, states: The Palestinian People is part of the Arab nation and Palestine is part of the great Arab Fatherland [or homeland; in Arabic, watan]. This tells us that not even the PLO believed in a palestinian people distinct from the Arabs as a whole. The PLO charter is a pan-Arabist declaration. The problem is that Western govts, the MSM, and the so-called NGOs [mostly funded by govts] pretend or convince themselves that there really is a “palestinian people.” And that is for their Judeophobic purposes.

    Peacemaking between Israel and the Arabs requires eliminating the big lie of a palestinian people.

  62. fp says:

    of course.

    but you see, with the collapse of education, and therefore of knowledge and reason in the west, the reliance on the MSM and the gullibility have become the foundation of what the calzones know. and, of course, they dk how much they dk and that they are fooled. in fact, they are certain of their smarts, which prevents them from questioning and skepticism.

    this is the fundamental flaw of the west which dooms it and i’m afraid it deserves its fate, because it brought it upon itself.

  63. fp says:

    and this is how the media and the gullible calzones work together:

  64. Eliyahu says:

    fp, I like dat. Dey dohnoh what dey dohnoh.

    Mr Pants [calzone] has a very swollen head.

    I would like to add another contributing factor to the mental decline of the West. Allan Bloom mentioned it. That is, the noise that has become acceptable as music. This form of noise, inescapable in some places, coarsens the feelings [imo] and the thinking. What it does to me is that I can’t go into some restaurants or stores because of the ugliness of this noise. You recall that Plato stressed the importance of music on the development of the young mind.

    You recall that David Bar Illan, z’l, past editor of the JPost, was a fine classical pianist. I knew him and have reason to believe that he agreed with me on this point. What I find hard to understand is that some classical musicians can also listen to the noise called “rock.” By the way, I don’t give a damn if somebody calls me a snob for this. I can’t stand rock, I can’t stand the Beatles, the rolling stones, techno, etc. I wouldn’t underestimate the effect of this kind of noise, if I were you, fp.

  65. fp says:

    it’s not just music it’s the whole culture that’s degraded.

  66. what was the second intifada

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