Who Endangers Europe? Islamists or Islamophobes

When discussing the dangers that Europe faces with colleagues, it’s very difficult to get them to take it seriously. Partly this comes from an almost narcissistic sense that Western culture (whose freedoms we academics enjoy to the fullest) is immortal and invulnerable, something like James Dean tooling down the highway on his hog at 120mph without a helmet. Partly this comes from their inability to imagine the Europeans behaving self-destructively, even though many of our own “progressive” values contribute to that behavior. In the asymmetrical warfare between Global Jihad and the West, the role of “progressive” values, aggressively asserted by dupes of demopaths plays a key role. Not only do “progressives” consistently attempt to silence any effort to expose the hate-mongering world of Islamism with cries of Islamophobia, but they aggressively attack anyone who objects. In this, the police seem to play an astonishingly central role.

Here’s a post from the Brussels Journal on the behavior of the police and other “progressives” concerning a protest of Islamism and its growing influence in Belgium that illustrates many of the suicidal dynamics at work in Europe today.

Council of Europe Backs Belgian Authorities: “Europe Is Threatened by Bigots – Not by Islam”
From the desk of Paul Belien on Thu, 2007-09-13 09:35

Last Tuesday the police authorities in Brussels, the “capital of Europe,” brutally attacked peaceful demonstrators protesting the Islamization of Europe. Even the European Commission was shocked at the appalling behaviour of the Brussels police, but the officers seem to have their fans as well.

This is a press release (590/2007) issued on Tuesday by Terry Davis, the Secretary General of the Council of Europe.

    Europe is threatened by bigots – not by Islam

    Statement by Terry Davis, Secretary General of the Council of Europe, on the march “Against the Islamisation of Europe” today in Brussels

    Strasbourg, 11.09.2007 – European values are under threat, say the organisers of a protest march under the banner “Against the Islamisation of Europe” which was due to place today in Brussels in spite of the ban by the city Mayor. The fact is that Europe and its values are indeed under threat, but the danger is not coming from Islam. Our common European values are undermined by bigots and radicals, both islamists and islamophobes, who exploit fears and prejudice for their own political objectives.

    The self-proclaimed defenders of European values say that the Mayor has violated their rights under the European Convention on Human Rights. The freedom of assembly and the freedom of expression are indeed essential preconditions for democracy, but they should not be regarded as a licence to offend. I will not enter into the discussion about whether the march should have been allowed or not, but I note that the protesters’ reading of the Convention is selective to say the least. It is very important to remember that the freedom of assembly and expression can be restricted to protect the rights and freedoms of others, including the freedom of thought, conscience and religion. This applies to everyone in Europe including the millions of Europeans of Islamic faith, who were the main target of today’s shameful display of bigotry and intolerance.

Need it be added that Terry Davis is a Socialist?

And need it be added that when we are dealing with people for whom the slightest criticism is taken as offensive, then following these guidelines — without applying them to Muslims — is a recipe for censorship. The difference between politeness and civility is that when one is polite one avoids saying things lest there be violence while when one is civil one can say what needs to be said, and there won’t be violence. European Muslims need lessons in civility.

Meanwhile the RTBF, the Belgian (French language) public television, reports that the demonstrators had staged the police violence. Showing a picture of Frank Vanhecke, a member of the European Parliament, lying on the ground after the police maltreated him, the RTBF reported: “These images are deceptive because he went to lie down on the ground himself.” Perhaps, Mr Vanhecke also pinched himself in the balls?

pinching balls

Note that when they want to, progressives are perfectly capable of calling into question the meaning of photographs and claiming that they are misleading.

Pictures from VTM, a private television network, clearly show that Mr Vanhecke was thrown down by police officers and that another Belgian politician, Filip Dewinter, was hauled away by police officers while he was giving an interview to the VTM journalist several yards away from the demonstration. The Belgian authorities intend to charge both Vanhecke and Dewinter for assaulting police officers.

[The video on YouTube to which they link is “No longer available.”]

Oh yes, before I forget: The Council of Europe is an organization of 47 European countries which has as its aim to safeguard human rights in Europe.

These are pictures taken in jail by a Dutch woman who was arrested at the demonstration in Brussels. She was kept in the cell for 7 hours. The detainees (aka the bigots) received one bottle of water and a… Brussels waffle.

If I were a Belgian reporter, I’d ask these police folks what they think they’re doing — is it a combination of fear of confronting Islamism so you bully the people you’re afraid will provoke them? Do they think they’re doing the “right thing,” or are (at least some of them) unhappy with what they’re ordered to do? What’s the justification given by their superiors? Are we looking at a new form of kapo mentality in which some of the oppressed join with their oppressors and do their dirty work? If I were an Islamist planning on taking over Europe, I’d be laughing out loud.

29 Responses to Who Endangers Europe? Islamists or Islamophobes

  1. Frank Dupont says:

    The real reason behind the behavior of the police is so provincial I’m almost ashamed to write about it. But here it goes. Belgium is a divided country. The north is dutch speaking while the south is french. The two cultures were united into a single country because of historical coincidence. For a long time, the conflict between both sides was a class conflict, with a french elite ruling a “peasant” north. Since the 60s, the dutch north has progressively liberated itself, both through economic growth and a process of a complicated state reform that has left the country of 10 million people with no less than 6 governments at various levels. Because of it’s preference for a socialist system, as opposed to the more economically liberal north, the french south has degraded from a ruling elite to a dependent minority that uses the federal state to suck unemployment and health insurance benefits out of the more prosperous north.
    The situation has developed into a crisis that has prevented the formation of a new (federal) government since the last election, more than a 100 days ago. It is in this context that the anti-Islam manifestation took place. The harassed politicians belong to a flemish party that advocates independence for the north, which would rob the socialist south of an important source of income. For sure, the french and socialist mayor of Brussels originally banned the manifestation to appease his muslim voters – more than 50% of the elected council members of his party are muslims – but the primary reason for him organising such brutality, is simply to take revenge on the one flemish party that has the balls -so to speak- to want to throw off the french yoke once and for all. The real causes behind these events have in the end little to do with Islam. They are the pathetic and provincial death struggle of a nation that has almost reached the end of it’s existence. The Americans would do well to support flemish independence and the division of Belgium, when it comes.

    i am familiar with these tensions as a medievalist, when the university of Leuven/Louvain was split into a Flemish one at Leuven and another at Louvain-la-neuve, and the library divided the journal volumes by year (even to one, odd to the other). it struck many of us as madness. now it’s suicidal madness. in a sense, it sounds like the US shd do in Belgium what it shd do in Iraq, favor a split and support the sides that support us (ie Flemish and Kurdish north). by the way, this split goes back to the early modern period when the south was a) catholic/inquisitorial and b) part of the hapsburg empire, and the north was a) protestant and b) prosperous beyond all expectation. – rl

  2. fp says:


    some of us are familiar with the situation in belgium.
    the harshness of the treatment of demonstrators seemed weird, but your explanation makes sense.

    It seems to me that Belgium is an artificial country, similar to the ones created by the colonial powers in the middle east, where allgiances are not to the state.
    you’ve got 2 regions which have different cultures, languages, political ideologies and economies — it’s a wonder that it took so long for things to explode.

    While I understand what you’re saying about the muslim aspect, I would nevertheless maintain that it is precisely of such circumstances that islamists can take advantage and create problems. that the capital of EU has more than 50% of councilmen muslim should give everybody pose as to the problem, the belgian divisions notwithstanding.


  3. fp says:


    it looks as if europe needs to experience life under sharia to comprehend the danger. and in that sense I see poetic justice: they will get what they deserve. whether they will be able to do something about it once they comprehend, i would not be so sure.

    there’s an interesting passage in Gregory of Tours where a fornicating priest gets into life-threatening trouble twice and his indulgent bishop bails him out. his response: turn on the bishop. when he gets into trouble the third time, the bishop lets him stew. hmmmmmm.

    aside: couldn’t help compare your comments here about taking offense vs. your reaction to my style offending visitors here. hhhhmmmmmmmm….

    parents rapidly learn to pick their fights. put on your thick skin. :-)

  4. fp says:


    Now anybody who does not have an islamophobic reaction to this ought to have his head examined.

  5. Michael B says:

    The “capital of Europe,” but of course. Quite amazing yet unsurprising. Related, if only in the most general, but still poignant, terms, Andre Glucksman. h/t normblog

  6. Weds. Morning Links

    Time for another Boston Tea Party? And, related, how much is America taxing its rich?Serious pumpkin-carving. CoyoteWho endangers Europe more? Islamists or Islamophobes? AugeanPat Buchanan on global warming:Like the panics of bygone eras, this one has…

  7. lgude says:

    “Bullying the people you are afraid would provoke them” is a pretty fair description of Stockholm syndrome. In my experience cops don’t usually get into that as easily as the campus thought police so the explanation of the ethnic dynamics of the situation seems to explain a fair bit. Still the Brit example from a while ago you link to is pure copper bullying on behalf of the bullies. All in all I think this white on white bullying just hastens the day of reckoning.

  8. fp says:

    it is evidence of the desperation of the establishment to prevent muslim violence by bullying those from whom they know there won’t be repercussions. iow, the very behavior of cowards.

    1. what they have not learned out of their own historical experience is that cowardice invites the very violence they want to avoid

    2. this is particularly true of muslim bullies who are in contempt of weakness and see it as invitation for more attacks.

    to the immigration dynamics must be added emigration dynamics: those who see the writing on the wall leave europe in large numbers. the demographics of the combination are dooming europe and imo, that’s what the stupid EU deserves.

  9. David M says:

    Trackbacked by The Thunder Run – Web Reconnaissance for 10/24/2007
    A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day…so check back often.

  10. Michael N says:

    fp – “muslim bullies who are in contempt of weakness and see it as invitation for more attacks”

    As Omar Bakri Mohammed said, after being refused re-entry to the UK:

    “I think Britain is missing me already. Maybe I have ideas you don’t like, but multi-cultural society needs to have extremes like me. I have to laugh.”

    If people cannot wake-up to what is implied in open statements like that, we will fall. Tolerant and free societies are not a given on the earth; they are not the default setting of human communities, and we need to fight with fierceness anything that threatens them, because as this animal deduces, they have weakspots and loopholes.

    Our ability to be civil is nothing unless we also have claws.

    retractable claws… or as the saying goes, no one (but fools) forgets where the hatchet is buried.

  11. fp says:


    if? as i said before, as far as I am concerned the only thing that will wake the west up is life under sharia, by which time they won’t be able to do anything even if the want to. and to be honest, it does not deserve any better, because it has brought it on itself.

    Turks Set Cars Alight in Brussels

    The capital of EU has already fallen. The police got the natives by the balls earlier, but it’s the other way around with the barbarians, who are already in, not at the gates. they were let in without a fight.

  12. Michael N says:

    yes fp, I read your comments on the inevitability of sharia in Europe the first time you made them. You say ‘when’, I say ‘if’. We agree to disagree on that, so please be assured that I am aware of your position even if I fail to refer to it when I state my own ;)

    Please can you expand (succinctly) on what you mean when you say: “the demographics of the combination are dooming europe and imo, that’s what the stupid EU deserves.”

    What I’d request from you there is for you to define your terms; when you say that the stupid EU deserves the doom that Europe will suffer, who or what exactly do you mean by “Europe”, and by “EU”?

    On the stupidity of the anti-democratic cabal that rules from Brussels, you’ll find no argument from me.

  13. fp says:


    with pleasure.

    demographics combination: I referred to the islamic immigration into europe and native emigration out of europe. coupled with the non-reproduction of natives and high reproduction of immigrants, that spells doom.

    EU: the unelected, undemocratic EU bureaucracy

    Europe: the European societies, including those not in EU e.g. Switzerland

    Stupidity: EU does not hold the monopoly on stupidity. European governments suffer from it because they invented EU, imposed it on the populations and are supporting it. And neither do the national elites hold the monopoly: much of the population is ignorant, apathetic, still buried in leftist nonsense, and has its heads in the sand.

    Sharia is already the law in many parts of Europe, and there is a lot of self-dhimmification. The islamization of europe is not due to the islamists. It is entirely self-inflicted. And it took major stupidity to achieve that.

    Here’s Mark Steyn again:

    “The decline of the West,” wrote Samuel P Huntington, is still in the slow first phase, but at some point it might speed up dramatically.” What is the point at which it becomes irreversible? If you’re on a river heading over the falls, it’s not the moment when you plunge over the precipice and are dashed on the rocks below. That’s the great visual dividing line – Joseph Cotton in Niagara: one minute his boat’s horizontal, next it’s heading straight down. But the critical point happens way back upstream. It’s still flat, it’s still the river not the distant falls, but what you thought were the placid shallows has, in fact, a strong silent running current and, before you even know it, you’re being swept along.


  14. Cleanthes says:


    “The difference between politeness and civility is that when one is polite one avoids saying things lest there be violence while when one is civil one can say what needs to be said, and there won’t be violence. “

    I think this is slightly wrong: Politeness is avoiding saying offensive things because, *given* that there won’t be violence, the offensiveness will be unnecessary.

    The problem we have is that there are those who are using politeness against us when the “given” is not: the threat of violence is there.

    on some level you’re right. but when any criticism is taken as impolite, then we’re in trouble.

  15. Monique says:

    Hi Everybody,
    Thanks for putting the link to my site: Eurabia.
    154 people get arrested that day. Some folks came from Holland(I’m also from Holland)and when they got out of the train, they got arrested. Many people didn’t demonstrate at all, because they we’re allready in jail, before the demo started. The mayor of Brussels had to make a statement, by sending us to jail. None of de demonstraters were violent or racists. We were talking to the press, while we were waiting for the demo to start. The police told us: “Follow”! “Face against the wall”.
    Many policeofficers did just their job, without knowing why. BEFEHL IST BEFEHL, just like the nazi’s did.
    In Holland our government speaks now about the muslims and non-muslims. That’s apartheid! We’re back in 30’s -40’s.

    After our arrest in Brussel(my husband and I), we’ve started SIOE Nederland. This islamism has to stop! We want our country back, and most important, we want our freedom back at all costs.

    I want to ask you all: please be with us in your thoughts on the 2nd november, the day that Theo van Gogh was ritual murdered by an islamist. We’ll have a commemoration in Amsterdam on 2nd november at 1900 ours. We’ll put flowers at the statue and we will take one minute of silence for Theo. Maybe than the shit really hits the van, because of the riots in Amsterdam of the last few days(car’s burning op), but we don’t care. Enough is enough! No Sharia in our country, No Sharia in Europe! Stop the islamisation of Europe.

    Take a look at our site: http://sioenederland.wordpress.com or at the international site: http://sioe.wordpress.com(english)

    Kind regards,

    SIOE Nederland

    Monique, my thoughts and hopes are with you. if i had any advice it would be to mobilize PR beforehand — invite the media, invite bloggers to come and witness it. make sure people are filming what goes on. if the european leaders who are behaving so suicidally right now fear anything more than the muslims, it’s international humiliation.

  16. Michael N says:

    fp, thanks for that. Again, broadly we agree. But I personally would nuance-in slightly more sympathy and less blame for the average Joe in the European street. The fact is, we have been progressively cowed and bullied by governments and institutions we are too damn polite to resist with anything like – say – the fervour and elan of the average French trade union. Culturally we don’t like to cause trouble. We have come to believe that protest marches are the limit of our ability to act.

    It actually rather reminds me of what Mark Steyn wrote in the immediate aftermath of 9-11: to paraphrase, he said that lives would have been saved had the passengers on three out of four planes not played by the outdated rules of the Federal Aviation Authority – that if we did what hijackers demanded and left everything in the hands of the Authorities, they would sort everything out for us. We were raised to play by the rules, (especially on passenger planes), and it killed us. The old rules no longer applied that day. Quiet, restrained behaviour cost thousands of lives in a single morning.

    You evidently don’t think we will awake until it’s too late, and I can understand why, but I think that there will come a time when people will become volatile and will stand up against what they instinctively feel threatens their freedom. There are things you have written that I simply can’t go along with (yet) because I believe they they are sweeping over-statement:

    “Sharia is already the law in many parts of Europe”

    What you surely mean is that a few very minor aspects of sharia law that do not conflict with western law have been implemented into the law in some parts of Europe. You make it sound as though parts of Europe have replaced their own legal structures with wholesale implementation of the entirety of sharia! If that’s what you mean, or nearly what you mean, please share the evidence, because I will sincerely be as receptive to it as anyone else. It’s an absurd and craven surrender that ANY aspects of religious law are being implemented anywhere in Europe, particularly the laws of a religion that despises us at best and wants to destroy us at worst.

    “The capital of EU has already fallen”

    If New York voted a muslim into Congress, would you claim that “the United Nations has already fallen”? (Bad example, I know, the UN has fallen! – but you get the analogy I’m sure). Muslim councillors of Brussels have nothing to do with governing the EU. The EU is not a state (despite its ongoing and undemocratic efforts to become one) and to call Brussels its capital is in this sense slightly misleading.

    The muslim councillors are a problem for the good people of Brussels (or “the bigots”, as we are now to call them), not for the EU. And they are a problem. That I do not dispute.

    I don’t want to exaggerate our differences. An ill-informed and timid population is facing the prospect of domination by an increasingly vocal and intimidatory religion which knows how to use our system to destroy what we have, better than we can use it to protect ourselves. I think where we disagree is mainly that you think we are closer to the waterfall than I do.

    I still think it’s worth paddling hard, (and this site is a fine paddle indeed) but sometimes you talk as though there is now nothing that can be done in Europe. You’re in a worse position than Cassandra – not only knowing what will happen if you’re not listened to, but knowing that even if you are listened to, nothing can be done.

    Isn’t that a counsel of despair? Hasn’t Europe faced even worst crises than this and somehow turned the situation around?

    (Apologies for the length – I have work to do and am trying to avoid starting it…)

  17. Richard Landes says:

    michael, i see that our normally voluble fp has not yet responded, so let me get a word in first.

    i am a minority of those who, realizing the situation, still think europe has a chance. the real problem is, how long will it take to wake them up. at another post here i have an analogy to the action flicks where the good guy has to be in danger of his life before he fights back hard, and the europeans seem intent on “leveling the playing field” before they mobilize.

    unfortunately that means waiting until it’s a matter of who sheds the most blood, whereas i am convinced that a robust civic reaction will work. it’s just that when it ocmes to defending themselves, the europeans seem determined to do exactly the wrong thing — appease.

    as for europe working its way out of yet another fix — the last two times europeans, by their own folly, almost destroyed themselves (the 30 years war of the 20th cn), the americans (and canadians and australians) came to their aid. this time, i don’t think europe can count on that, partly because we americans have our own problems, and partly because the europeans have been much more openly and viciously anti-american than they were in the past.

    it’s time for europe to grow up. ironically, it’s been a civilization for longer, but as democratic societies it’s younger (and i’d argue far more immature) than the usa. i know that sounds strange to most people (including lots of americans), but that’s part of the problem.


  18. Michael N says:

    Richard, that’s an interesting analysis of European democracy. I would have no quarrel with the idea that Europe needs to grow up and is in many ways less mature in its democracy than the USA. The European attitude is very much one of voting someone into power twice a decade and then taking almost zero interest in anything that that government may do – unless it hits us in the wallet. The only people who do continually monitor and pressure the powers-that-be come almost entirely from the left. Everyone else is happily asleep, watching Celebrity Come Dancing or X-Factor.

    I can only speak for the UK: here’s our problem. Thanks largely to the BBC, debate on immigration, for example, is almost completely stifled. The major political parties will not touch it, for fear of the knee-jerk reaction of being called racist and right-wing by our beloved BBC. The proof that an increasing amount of people here are alert to at least some of the problem is that this situation has led, unfortunately, to a large increase in the number of people voting for the British National Party. In my opinion they are as malevolent and as deceitful as the political islamists. They would not stop at ending the power of islamism in this country, but would then sort out the Jewish problem, and the black problem, and the Irish problem, and so on.

    It’s deeply regrettable that increasing numbers of people are feeling little option but to vote for these thugs, but it might perhaps alert one or other of our main political parties to the fact that people are becoming restless in the face of mass immigration and islamisation. I don’t expect ideals from politicians, (maybe from Blair, but certainly not from Brown) but I do know that they can smell potential vote-winning ideas the same way a shark can smell a drop of blood in a mile of ocean.

    It’s our sedative media, in my opinion, that presents the major stumbling block – which is what drew me to this site in the first place.

  19. fp says:


    I do not disagree about progressive indoctrination, and in fact I have argued it myself often. it’s actually more than that — it is accompanied by schooling devoid of education, resulting in the public trying desperately to avoid indepenedent and critical thinking because, the pertinent faculties not have been developed, it’s too damn hard.

    do you really THINK a wakeup will occur, or do you actually HOPE, because you can’t cope with a reality in which it does not occur?

    while i agree that sharia is not the official european law, various dhimmitude policies and behaviors are increasigly creeping in, including the US. there are certain areas in europe where european law cannot be enforced. if you read the steyn quote carefully, his metaphor of sailing towards a falls is quite apt.

    europe has not turned itself around. sometimes it had destroyed itself completely and then rebuilt. its ass was saved by others in ww2 and since then it has been protected and did not need to lift a finger in self-defense. but the point is the whole west is in decline, and there are no saviors anymore, leaving europe incapable and unwilling to defend itself.

    as to the BBC

    ‘Don’t Panic, I’m Islamic’

    so how can the public wake up enough of before it experiences extreme damage personally?

  20. Monique says:

    Thanks for your support, I really appreciate it :)

    Yes, it’s humilation, to all the people who’ll critizise the islam. They just want their freedom. It’s all political correctness we’re dealing with here.
    They want us to shut up.
    Read about the murderattack on the SIOE-leader and members, last sunday: http://sioe.wordpress.com/2007/10/25/update-on-the-copenhagen-demonstration-murder-attempt-on-sioesiad-denmark-leader-and-members/#comments

    Tomorrow, SIOE England will have a demonstration in London(UK) and France will have their demo on december 8th.

    Please read the press-releases on the main site: http://sioe.wordpress.com

    We must fight for our freedom, we will not submit!

    Kind Regards,


  21. Michael N says:

    fp, What strikes me as worrying is that it is not as though we can let the quiet jihad here in Europe go so far, then wake up and start to undo what has been done. These are not people who EVER accept the un-islamisation of what has even once been islamised. They still think that Spain is occupied territory after so long.

    As to whether I think or merely hope that we will wake up in time… that’s a difficult question. I still think anything is possible. It’s not about making predictions, it’s about doing whatever can be done, whether ultimately it works or not.

  22. fp says:

    exactly right about unislamization.

    which is why it looks to me like you contradict yourself. and actually that indicates it’s hope against reason. reason wins.

  23. Michael N says:

    fp, I can only repeat; we have two options:

    1) to agree with RL, to believe that things can be rescued here, that we still have time, and thus do whatever we can to fight islamisation. This involves acknowledging that the 2.5% of the population who follow islam in the UK have, despite being vocal and intimidatory, so far achieved very, very little in terms of their own agenda, but have managed in the process to incur the strong distrust of the majority of British citizens who do not work in the London media.

    2) to agree with you that it’s already too late, that nothing either can or will be done. This involves acknowledging that the 2.5% of the population who follow islam in the UK have so far achieved virtually nothing in terms of islamising the UK, have incurred the distrust of the majority of Britons, but will in the next few decades make such colossal leaps forward that we will be unable to resist their imposition of sharia law.

    Am I sure that I am right? No. As I said above, making predictions is not the point. I leave that for things like soccer matches and my brother’s marriage.

    The point is; if I believe there is even a small chance that I may be right, then there are things I can do, efforts I can make. I can at least try.

    If I am sure that you are right, I may as well apply for my USA visa right now, and leave my country to the islamists. Are you essentially saying that it’s a waste of time even trying? That I should do nothing? That it is a waste of time even reading this site?

    Let’s suppose I agree that you are right. What should I then do?

  24. Michael N says:

    Or would the important thing be that I acknowledge that you’re right, more logical than I am?

  25. fp says:

    my point regarding your #23 was that the 1st paragraph does not exactly lead to the second — a bit of a contradiction.

  26. Michael N says:

    fp, you’re saying that there’s a contradiction between recognizing patterns of islamic attitudes regarding islamized territory, and believing that all is not yet lost and we should therefore do what we can do to fight Islamization in Europe? That’s a leap. It’s not quite logical. My position is that muslims don’t like to let go of territory that has been islamized, and therefore we should prevent this territory becoming islamized before it’s too late. Contradiction? Where?

    While the first paragraph may not “lead” to the second, there is no inherent contradiction. The reason is that despite your assertions that the “capital of the EU has already fallen” and “sharia is the law” in “many” parts of Europe, Europe is NOT islamized to the extent that you may believe.

    (Before you think I am being naive, I am in no doubt whatsoever about the severe, potentially suicidal, potentially catastrophic attitudes that are seeping across Europe. I just think that we are currently in a position where we still have time, IF we can wake up. And even if RL’s analysis is right – that we are like the reluctant fighter in a western movie, who only takes up his gun once all other options are closed and his loved ones are threatened – even if we wake up SO late that a peaceful civic solution can no longer be found, we can still overcome this by other means. You are fond of telling us that America bailed us out during the twentieth century, (while neglecting to mention that nazi Germany lost its war and its will in the snows of the USSR, before the USA decided to join the fight) and that is undoubtedly true. However, I remain proud of the fact that on this small island, when the continent had fallen, we found a leader who ignored the voices of appeasement, ignored the odds, ignored the voices that told him it was too late to fight, and somehow – despite nightly bomber raids flattening London – kept the candle burning until help from outside arrived. Yes, circumstances are different; but you talk as though you know for certain what the future of Europe is. Dismiss this in whatever way you choose, but the fact is, you don’t.)

    And in fact, the example I used – Spain – proves that whatever islamists may choose to believe about former gains, islam can, and has been, repulsed from territories where it has seemed far, far more secure and established than it currently does in Europe.

    As RL says – it’s about taking the initiative. The islamists currently have it. Where we disagree is that you think we cannot get it back. I think we could.

  27. fp says:

    no, my point was that if they will insist and not give up and fight, and we already know that the west is decadent, ignorant and coward, thinking and hoping that the west will survive is not logical.

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