This is a topic I don’t often blog on, although I should. It’s the core of my own academic work, but I’ve chosen to focus on the media at the Augean Stables. Nonetheless, it’s important to keep in mind that one of the major functions of the MSM in the 21st century is to keep from the public awareness of the nature of the challenge. Islamic apocalyptic millennial expectations are at the heart of both the Shi’i (Khoumeini, 1979/1400) and Sunni (Bin Laden, 1989) jihadi awakening.
If you don’t know about this dimension of the problem, you’re much more likely to fall prey to PCP and LCE… which is why the guardians of the public sphere — academics and media talking heads — don’t like to bring it up much.
Hamas and Islamic Millenarianism: What the West Doesn’t Recognize
Paul Landau | Bio 08 Jan 2008
Some 20 years after its founding, the Palestinian organization Hamas remains little understood in the West. Although it is invoked nearly daily in the media, it has been the subject of only a very small number of serious studies. The most common error made by observers in considering contemporary Islamist movements — and notably, Hamas — is that of attempting to grasp them in terms of concepts and modes of thought that are proper to the West. Most western analyses of the phenomenon of Islamism tend to underestimate or even obscure a fundamental element that is common to all the various Islamist currents and organizations: namely, the role of specifically Muslim religious beliefs and, more precisely, of Islamic eschatology.
Thus in his book “Jihad,” a well-known French expert of Islamism like Gilles Kepel can explain Iran’s Islamic revolution of 1979 as the result of an “alliance of the pious bourgeoisie and the poor urban youth.” In similar fashion, numerous journalists continue to describe the perpetrators of suicide attacks — both Palestinians and others — as economically disadvantaged and driven by “desperation,” even though all the research conducted on the subject demonstrates that such a Marxist-tinged sociological interpretation does not reflect the reality.
It is impossible to understand the success enjoyed by Hamas, notably since the Palestinian elections nearly two years ago, and the persistence of Islamism in general — the decline or even proximate demise of which is regularly announced by Western observers — if one fails to take into account the beliefs held by the members of Islamist movements themselves or if one diminishes their importance: dismissing them, for instance, as medieval gibberish devoid of any concrete significance.
We need to listen to what the Islamists say and appreciate the importance of their discourse if we are going to be able to grasp their motivations and strategies. It is symptomatic in this regard that the Western media, which regularly touch upon the rivalry between Fatah and Hamas in covering events in the Middle East, nonetheless almost never mention the charter of the Palestinian Islamist movement.
[snip]
Eschatology and the Conflict Between Islam and the West
One of the most essential — and most little-known — aspects of contemporary Islamism is the role of eschatological or millenarian beliefs within it. This millenarian dimension of Islam has often been minimized by commentators, sometimes for polemical reasons: Christianity is presented as the only religion that is oriented toward the beyond, whereas Islam is supposed to be characterized by strictly this-worldly preoccupations.
This forgotten dimension of the Islamist phenomenon is key to understanding the current resurgence of a triumphalist Islam, since it cuts across all the divisions within the Muslim world: between Sunnism and Shiism, between traditional Islam and contemporary Islamism. As the French historian Pierre Lory explained in a recent lecture at the Sorbonne, “Eschatology represents one of the fundamental traits of the Muslim religion. The imminence of the end of time and of the final judgment is one of the oldest and most constant Quranic themes and is found throughout the sacred text of Islam.” Inasmuch as Muhammad is the last prophet (bearing the “seal of prophecy”), his advent inaugurates the last period of universal history: i.e. the eschatological period.
In his collection of Hadith titled “The Major Signs of the End of the World from the Prophet to the Return of Jesus,” Abdallah al-Hajjaj cites a saying of the prophet, who, raising his hand, is supposed to have affirmed that his mission and the final hour were as close as his middle and index fingers. This belief in the imminence of the end of time is a fundamental aspect of the contemporary Islamic reawakening, in both its peaceful and belligerent forms.
It is sometimes suggested that only the Shia version of Islam assigns importance to eschatological considerations, and it is true that the motif of the return of the hidden Imam, the central element of Shia belief, lends itself especially easily to millenarian interpretations. Since Iran’s Islamic Revolution in 1979, millenarian aspirations have been at the center of developments in the Shia Muslim world. The belief in the imminence of the Final Judgment helps to explain both the suicidal forms of behavior that proliferated during the Iran-Iraq War of the 1980s and the current attitude of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
[snip]
A Millenarian and Redemptive Anti-Semitism
Hamas is a radical Islamic movement whose worldview is marked by an Islamic eschatology in which the Jews occupy a central place. Its apocalyptic vision of a final confrontation with Israel excludes every possibility of coexistence or “moderation.” This vision is identical with that of the most radical Jihadist movements.
Far from being merely an epiphenomenon, the anti-Semitism of Hamas constitutes the very core of its political-religious doctrine. The hatred of Jews expressed in the Hamas Charter and conveyed in the discourse of its officials is not simply a religious anti-Judaism or an imported anti-Semitism of European origins. It is, as the French scholar of anti-Semitism Pierre-André Taguieff has put it in his book “La nouvelle judéophobie,” a “millenarian and redemptive anti-Semitism.” Taguieff compares radical Islamic Judeophobia — in terms of which “the Muslim world can only be saved by the extermination of the Jews” — to the racist anti-Semitism of Hitler.
It is troubling to note, as Richard Landes has recently pointed out, that the West, far from condemning the apocalyptic discourse of Hamas, actually encourages it. Such an attitude is undoubtedly to be explained by the fact that certain European leaders and diplomats share the convictions of Hamas officials concerning the imminent disappearance of Israel.
Paul Landau is the author of the recent study of Tariq Ramadan and the Muslim Brotherhood “Le sabre et le Coran” (Editions du Rocher, 2005). The above article was translated from French by John Rosenthal.
Read the whole article.
Finally!! The Truth!
George Bush is creating a catastrophe in Israel.
When Rice started to reinvigarate the Piece Process I knew right then and there that our government knows NOTHING about the war we’re in.
It’s unbelievable that in 2008 the Federal Govt still has no conception about Islam’s goals and what Israel’s demise means for the world.
It’s so very dispairing to know complete idiots are running the country… i fear we will not survive them.
Comment by Vince P — January 14, 2008 @ 9:53 am
Was it my imagination or were the gigantic green flags waved triumphantly by the long-suffering partisans in the finale of the Metropolitan Opera’s current production of Macbeth a nod to Hamas? Is Hamas actually becoming a cultural placeholder for righteous freedom fighters?
http://blog.metoperafamily.org/metopera/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/_mg_9355.jpg
Comment by Diane — January 14, 2008 @ 11:35 am
an excellent analysis by Paul Landau. He is right that there are few serious studies of Hamas in Western lands. Raphael Israeli has written some articles published in English, as well as a book in Hebrew: Le’Hiyot `im haIslam לחיות עם האיסלאם [Living with Islam]. This book contains both an analysis of Islam and especially of what he calls Islamic fundamentalism and recommendations of what to do to handle the problem. Massimo Introvigne wrote a helpful book on Hamas in Italian, although I disagree with some of his incorrect remarks about Israel, for instance, the international law status of Judea-Samaria-Gaza. It is curious that despite France and Italy being part of the pro-Arab, pro-Islamic European Union, a number of good books on Islam and the threat represented by “radical” or “fundamentalist” Islam or Islamism have come out of those countries. It seems that scholars in those places are more often unafraid of offending Muslim sensibilities by criticizing Islam than in the US & UK.
Comment by Eliyahu — January 14, 2008 @ 12:54 pm
Dore Gold’s book Battle for Jerusalem is about this topic too.
Comment by Vince P — January 14, 2008 @ 1:07 pm
vince,
it’s not just policy makers ignorance and stupidity, it’s worse. it’s also the wish to appease themselves out of the hole they dug for themselves and their sense that they brought america down the drain.
how is the following different than what landau says the MSM is doing?
The Implications of the Dismissal of Stephen Coughlin
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/019534.php
fp
http://fallofknowledgeandreason.blogspot.com/
Comment by fp — January 14, 2008 @ 3:03 pm
fp: trust me.. i understand our entire civilization is broken and will be flushed… and our govt is paving the way.
Comment by Vince P — January 14, 2008 @ 10:06 pm
The son inherits when the father dies. Perhaps George Bush’s millenarianism will come half way to meet the hidden Imam. Yikes!
Comment by Abu Nudnik — January 16, 2008 @ 12:36 pm
Abu: If you try to reconcile Islamic Eschatology and Biblical Eschatology what you find is that the same story is being told, with the same cast of characters. The ending is a different though.
Based on my year of research into this , a reasonable case could be made that:
The Bible’s Antichrist is Islam’s Mahdi/Caliph
The Bible’s False Prophet is Islam’s Issa (Jesus)
The Bible’s Jesus, Son of God is Islam’s Dijjal
The Bible’s End Time Beast Empire is Islam’s Revived Caliphate
Here is why I found a link.
In the Bible, the Antichrist will, amoung other things, seek to kill Jews and Christians , institute his law around the world, and eventually go to Jerusalem as his new capital for the world empire he seeks to establish.
In Islam, the Imam Mahdi will lead the Muslims in a global jihad against all Kuffar. He will be the Caliph for the Muslims and they will fight in allegiance with him. Their mission is to establish Sharia law on the entire globe. The Mahdi then goes to Jerusalem which will be the throne for the Caliphate.
In the Bible , the False Prophet is the side-kick of the AntiChrist.. he will appear as a lamb but will really be a dragon. His mission is to compell people to establish worship of the Antichrist and his god , Satan. He will kill those who do not submit.
In Islam, Isa (Jesus) will return to Earth and he will be subordinate to the Mahdi.. allowing the Mahdi to lead in prayers. etc.. Isa will assist in the Global Jihad. Isa will testify to Christians that their religion is false. That he was never the son of God and that he did not die on the cross. He will abolish the jiyza tax, which means no one will be allowed to be a dhimmi any more.. you have the choice of conversion to Islam or death.
In the Bible, Jesus, the son of God, returns to earth from the skies and goes to battle against the ANti-christ on behalf of God’s chosen people, the Jews. This is the moment of Israel’s redemption with God and the fullfillment of all the promises from God to the Jews.
In Islam, the Dijjal is the Antichrist will do battle with the Muslims and he will protect the Jews and fight on their behalf.
In the Bible, the empire the Antichrist rules is a Middle Eastern based government that had once existed on Earth but then had appeared dead for some time. The people on earth will be amazed when this empire is reestablished
In Islam an end time Caliphate is prophecied .. it will return justice to the earth, this caliphate will establish Islam around the globe.
Muslims today believe that the time for this has come. With every concession that Israel makes, the Arabs feel that much more confident that everything is moving in.
Muslims believe they have an active role in the end time.. an active roll of killing Non Muslims.
Christians believe the end time is soon and they believe that the Antichrist will be ruthless in seeking out and killing them.
RL: see my response at comment #17.
Comment by Vince P — January 16, 2008 @ 2:12 pm
Sounds like Israel/Kingdom of Judah to many, if not always consciously.
yes, the original “antichrist” thinking was christians reading jewish messianic hopes as the work of the evil forces. it’s only since the 17th century that a serious strain of christian apocalyptic thinking has been able to view jewish messianic aspirations — e.g., the state of israel — as a positive sign, not a sign of evil. there’s a strong correlation between that generosity of spirit — positive-sum apocalyptic thinking — and the emergence of democracy.
Comment by Abu Nudnik — January 16, 2008 @ 2:59 pm
… but I appreciate the kind sentiment, Vince, just the same.
Comment by Abu Nudnik — January 16, 2008 @ 3:01 pm
>Sounds like Israel/Kingdom of Judah to many, if not always consciously
Israel’s revival is in the Bible too… but never in the context of the revival of the beast empire mentioned in Daniel and Relevation. Here is Israel’s revival after an extrodarnarily long exile. The Babylon exile was only about 70 years, the most recent one was about 1,900 years.
Ezekiel 38:8 After many days you [Gog, the Antichrist] will be summoned; in the latter years you will come to a land restored from the ravages of war, with many peoples gathered on the mountains of Israel that had long been in ruins. Its people were brought out from the peoples, and all of them will be living securely.
RL: the positive-sum scenario has the jews restored to their land and the nations about adopting the ways of justice (isaiah 1:2-4, micah 2:1-4): swords into plowshares, spears into pruning hooks. no denominational monopoly on salvation and righteousness, but salvation thru morality, whatever your religion.
unfortunately, christianity rapidly succumbed to zero-sum thinking about the jews — they replaced them as the chosen people (rather than joined them), and so any jewish activity that remained jewish rather than converting, became threatening… hence, in the christian imagination, the revival of israel was associated with the evil empire of (the whore of) bablyon.
>… but I appreciate the kind sentiment, Vince, just the same
Abu: I expressed no sentiment. I objectively related what are clear similiarites between the two religions.
I know for a fact that most Christians have no idea what Islam’s eschatology is… so that’s why I wrote so much about it.
And if anyone should take issue it would be me. after all your religion says that my eventual fate is either to be killed or forced to convert. On the other hand, you have nothing to fear from me.
Am I wrong?
i am unaware of any christian apocalyptic scenario that does not believe that, after jesus returns, the only survivors will be christian. am i wrong?
Comment by Vince P — January 16, 2008 @ 3:55 pm
My religion? What makes you think I’m a Muslim? My moniker is a joke: Abu is the Arabic cognate of Abba=father in Hebrew. Nudnik is Yiddish for “pest,” in the sense of a person who bugs people, usually used to describe a mischievous person, often a child. “My Father is a pest” is the translation, which is a pun on more austere names like “My Father is peace” (Avishalom or Absalom in Hebrew, Abu Salaam in Arabic) and others which are taken as honorifics by Arabs and are, I believe, thought of as military names. Hence, Abu Nudnik, a joker, a pest and a Jew: glad to make your acquaintance, Vince.
Comment by Abu Nudnik — January 16, 2008 @ 6:06 pm
Well I sure made a mistake with that assumption :)
Sorry about that. Nice to meet you.
Obviously you didn’t need my explaination on Ez 38. :)
What did you mean by this line.. was it sincere or sarcasm.. it’s hard to tell
“but I appreciate the kind sentiment, Vince, just the same”
- Vince
Comment by Vince P — January 16, 2008 @ 6:18 pm
Sincere Vince. I appreciate any and all people who don’t want to destroy Jews for our control over the whole world. [HUMOUR ALERT] We don’t do a great job of it cause there are so few of us [THIS IS HUMOUR!! THIS IS HUMOUR!!] and our goyish dupes are, frankly, not always up to scratch. [HUMOUR! HUMOUR!] But we DO try. I don’t know why I’m in such a nutty mood today.
Comment by Abu Nudnik — January 16, 2008 @ 6:48 pm
Thanks for clarifying :)
I’m tired I had a long day arguing with Leftists earlier.. so I’m trying to heal my mind after it was forced to read comments my 5 year old nephew is too mature to say.. and then being in the Muslim mindset that I mistakeningly read your comments in.
can you remember any of them? i’m collecting these “arguments.”
Now i’m over analyizing :)
I went to Israel in 1998.. it was agreat place. love to go again.
you and as many people as you can get to go with you should go. you’ll see up close the difference btw the impression of the msm and the reality on the ground.
Comment by Vince P — January 16, 2008 @ 7:02 pm
Response to Vince by RL
Abu: If you try to reconcile Islamic Eschatology and Biblical Eschatology what you find is that the same story is being told, with the same cast of characters. The ending is a different though.
Based on my year of research into this , a reasonable case could be made that:
i disagree with your analysis, which i think is actually another form of apocalyptic thinking. i will explain.
they key here is one of the two major “laws” of apocalyptic phenomena: one person’s messiah is another’s antichrist. your list illustrates this tendency: the muslim messiah is the bible’s antichrist. in my long study of apocalyptic phenomena i have found that the interest in final total battles has done great damage to humankind, and deserves scrutiny, not replication. i emend your comments accordingly.
The Bible’s Antichrist is Islam’s Mahdi/Caliph
the bible does not have an antichrist, not even the new testament. “The” antichrist is a product of the christian apocalyptic imagination, and the proper “counterpart” to the christian antichrist is the muslim “dajjal” — the figure of evil who leads the forces of evil in the final apocalyptic battle
The Bible’s False Prophet is Islam’s Issa (Jesus)
i do not understand. as far as i know, jesus is a key and positive figure in muslim apocalyptic scenarios.
The Bible’s Jesus, Son of God is Islam’s Dijjal
what’s your evidence for this? or is this merely a way of saying that apocalyptic muslims view apocalyptic christians (who see Jesus returning to establish his kingdom) as agents of antichrist? in which case, i agree with the “in other words” but not your formulation.
The Bible’s End Time Beast Empire is Islam’s Revived Caliphate
the bible’s millennial kingdom of jesus’ rule corresponds to islam’s revived caliphate. in both cases, when believers thought that they were the agents of divine will to bring about the “perfect society” through boundless violence, they have wrought terrible destruction and suffering on those they claimed to “save”.
Here is why I found a link.
In the Bible, the Antichrist will, amoung other things, seek to kill Jews and Christians , institute his law around the world, and eventually go to Jerusalem as his new capital for the world empire he seeks to establish.
there is no biblical “antichrist,” not one passage that speaks of “antichrist” as a single, near-omnipotent agent of evil who comes at the end of time. alas, in christian apocalyptic mythology, the antichrist will persecute christians, but he is a jew, a messiah to the jews, who direct gog and magog to kill christians.
In Islam, the Imam Mahdi will lead the Muslims in a global jihad against all Kuffar. He will be the Caliph for the Muslims and they will fight in allegiance with him. Their mission is to establish Sharia law on the entire globe. The Mahdi then goes to Jerusalem which will be the throne for the Caliphate.
in christianity, christ will lead his troops in a war against his enemies that brings on great slaughters (Rev 19), and establish the millennial kingdom of his rule all over the world.
In the Bible , the False Prophet is the side-kick of the AntiChrist.. he will appear as a lamb but will really be a dragon. His mission is to compell people to establish worship of the Antichrist and his god , Satan. He will kill those who do not submit.
In Islam, Isa (Jesus) will return to Earth and he will be subordinate to the Mahdi.. allowing the Mahdi to lead in prayers. etc.. Isa will assist in the Global Jihad. Isa will testify to Christians that their religion is false. That he was never the son of God and that he did not die on the cross. He will abolish the jiyza tax, which means no one will be allowed to be a dhimmi any more.. you have the choice of conversion to Islam or death.
interesting point, altho it follows directly in line with you theological exegesis.
In the Bible, Jesus, the son of God, returns to earth from the skies and goes to battle against the ANti-christ on behalf of God’s chosen people, the Jews. This is the moment of Israel’s redemption with God and the fullfillment of all the promises from God to the Jews.
this is at best a very recent variant with almost no precedent. in the overwhelming majority of christian apocalyptic thinking, he returns for his faithful (ie christians) and the jews have the choice of conversion or death.
In Islam, the Dijjal is the Antichrist will do battle with the Muslims and he will protect the Jews and fight on their behalf.
In the Bible, the empire the Antichrist rules is a Middle Eastern based government that had once existed on Earth but then had appeared dead for some time. The people on earth will be amazed when this empire is reestablished.
and the antichrist will be a jew.
In Islam an end time Caliphate is prophecied .. it will return justice to the earth, this caliphate will establish Islam around the globe.
in christianity an end time “kingdom” is prophecied… it will return justice to the earth, and spread christianity around the globe.
Muslims today believe that the time for this has come. With every concession that Israel makes, the Arabs feel that much more confident that everything is moving in [their direction (?) — added RL].
some christians believe that the time for this has come. with every concession that Israel makes, the christian millennialists believe that the jews in israel have betrayed their historic role — to rebuild the temple — and have gone over to the forces of antichrist.
Muslims believe they have an active role in the end time.. an active roll of killing Non Muslims.
this is the most terrifying belief of all. it turns the relatively common cataclysmic apocalyptic scenario — enormous devastation accompanies the shift to a messianic era — into a movement of megadeath and destruction. from passive (heavenly forces do the job) to active (we are divine agents). this active cataclysmic apocalyptic represents the single most dangerous form that any religious belief can take. it has, when it succeeds, killed millions of people, and accounts for most of the lion’s share of the standing accusation that religion has killed more people than any single belief (except, of course, secular millennialism like communism and nazism).
Christians believe the end time is soon and they believe that the Antichrist will be ruthless in seeking out and killing them.
as yet, christian apocalyptic believers remain loyal to the passive cataclysmic apocalyptic scenario — jesus and his celestial armies will defeat the antichrist. let us pray that they do not shift from passive to active. of course, the longer the “secular” and presumably responsible forces of civil society do not resist islamic apocalyptic ambitions (and thereby encourage them), the more likelihood that, just in self-defense, christians will move to more active apocalyptic beliefs.
one group’s (islam’s) messiah (the mahdi) is another’s (christianity’s) antichrist.
we are all in trouble. and the slumber of the responsible awakens the demons of apocalyptic war.
Comment by Richard Landes — January 16, 2008 @ 10:23 pm
Jesus Richard! Or Richard Jesus! That means my original post is more or less on the money?
Double yikes!!!!
Does that mean that the Jew is despised precisely because he insists on a proper freely chosen contractual arrangement in human affairs negotiated without restraint or coercion?
short answer: yes. yes. and those remarks go very deep. the key to positive-sum is voluntarily chosen cooperation, not coercion. “transformative” apocalyptic scenarios are, imnsho, at the heart of successful democratic revolutions.
Comment by Abu Nudnik — January 17, 2008 @ 12:07 am
every time i read about religion i marvel at the delusional creativity of the human mind, which can build sophisticated structures out of nothing.
Comment by fp — January 17, 2008 @ 3:27 pm
fp: are you also amazed by things like the “New” Economy of the 1990s.. or the Subprime Mortage money market?
Comment by Vince P — January 17, 2008 @ 3:47 pm
It is one thing to have no imagination, sir, another to be intensely proud of it: to think that imagination is a weakness and its products are delusional is profound delusion in itself. There is hardly a significant activity of mankind which uses fictional or hypothetical figures to create, to explain, to explore including writing, banking, art, philosophy, poetry, history, law and even science which must posit hypotheticals in order to test them in experiment.
Once I knew a person who refused to read fiction because he thought since the characters didn’t really “exist” the book must be a “lie.” This kind of literal thinking will certainly build no structure more sophisticated than a dog house. In fact, it’s likely to spend its day watching daytime soaps and writing nonsense in blog commentaries. God’s existence is precisely like the existence of fictional characters. The MEANING of the story is what counts: its TRUTH not its facticity. My brother once said to a fellow who complained that God was an invention of the human mind that toasters also are and THEY exist.
What is really annoying is the hubris of comments like yours, fp, the assumption that your intelligence is so beyond anyone else’s that anything beyond your imagination must be a delusion. If you were more intelligent, you’d be ashamed.
Comment by Abu Nudnik — January 17, 2008 @ 8:52 pm
vince,
i marvel at anything that discards knowledge and reason, those two included. however, those are relatively passing phenomena, while religions persist, because they serve much deeper social tasks than profit.
Comment by fp — January 17, 2008 @ 9:18 pm
nudnik,
i would suggest you try to figure out why is it that you develop such profoundly incorrect interpretations of matters, including of my comments. armchair psychology without the necessary background says more about yourself than me.
there is NO relationship between my position on religion and all your ramblings about imagination and fiction. Neither is your position on god and religion what makes people religious. Tell me, what is the meaning of god that drove catholics to inquisition and obl to jihad?
give me a break. and i mean it literally.
Comment by fp — January 17, 2008 @ 9:25 pm
LOL! That’s a good one!
Comment by Abu Nudnik — January 17, 2008 @ 11:21 pm
glad i could entertain you. but believe you me, if you knew how intelligent you are, you would not laugh.
you are so pathetically typical: you complain of lack of civility and bullying, but while all I said was that you are wrong, it was you who questioned my intelligence and prmpted me to be ashamed of myself.
and you did not even realize how funny that would be if it weren’t so sad.
Comment by fp — January 18, 2008 @ 1:57 am
I test at 152
Comment by Abu Nudnik — January 18, 2008 @ 9:42 am
Name one incorrect interpretation please.
Comment by Abu Nudnik — January 18, 2008 @ 9:55 am
When Richard doesn’t agree with an idea he takes the argument apart. I admire that.
It’s not that you think my ideas are beneath your efforts: you just can’t understand them and that’s why you can’t address them.
Comment by Abu Nudnik — January 18, 2008 @ 10:08 am
152, huh? LOL! that’s a good one. and you want to be taken seriously.
if i were to name one i would engage you in a back and forth, which is exactly what I don’t have time and inclination to do, because I don’t see it as a productive use of my time.
as i explained, RL still has the patience to engage. while I am glad there he’s doing it, my opinion is that this is not gonna make a meaningful difference. I used to do what he does, but at some point I had to admit it’s a lost cause.
not even old tricks like “you don’t understand me” or “you can’t answer me” will stimulate me to elevate you to a discussant. if it suits you to believe I can’t handle you, be my guest. but trust me, if you do, the 152 means absolutely nothing. in fact, that’s true even if you don’t.
Comment by fp — January 18, 2008 @ 4:27 pm
fp: Speaking on behalf of the lurkers in this thread we demand more entertainment and/or educational value from your retorts.
They have become very mundane and contentless.
Comment by Vince P — January 18, 2008 @ 5:26 pm
there is only so much i can do with what i have to react to lately. perhaps your demand should be addressed elsewhere.
there is always some content in there, though, if you care to pay attention.
anyway, i am not sure if you can speak on behalf of lurkers and I suggest you can request, but not demand.
Comment by fp — January 18, 2008 @ 8:15 pm
Abu Nudnik! well I certainly got a laugh when you defined you pen name, lol But seriously, when reading comments from most Jewish writers, I never hear them speak of fighting back, ie preemptive wars etc. Has Isreal really and truly placed its collective fate in the hand of the L–D? It is also chilling to read the apocalyptic parallel of islam and the Bible. I susspect that proper education about the differences of islam and Judeo/Christian beliefs would go a long way to clear up the mess in the middle east. Unfortunately, the mainstream presses of the world would never do that. May G-d protect Isreal.
Comment by Larry B. — January 27, 2008 @ 1:38 pm
RL:
Somehow I completely missed your reply to me back in January. Not sure if you’ll read this comment at this late date.
the bible does not have an antichrist, not even the new testament. “The” antichrist is a product of the christian apocalyptic imagination, and the proper “counterpart” to the christian antichrist is the muslim “dajjal” — the figure of evil who leads the forces of evil in the final apocalyptic battle
The Bible clearly has an individual person who appears at the End Time. He’s given many names: The Assyrian, The King of Babylon, The Lawless One, The Beast, Gog, etc.. These references are extensive and are found in both the OT and NT and they are all referring to the same person.
In order to determine which actor from the Bible corresponds to which actor in Islam there’s two ways you can look at it.
You can use an objective point of view.. to match the two sides , the criteria to be used should be to match the specific activities they will engage in, the people or forces they ally with and those they oppose.
In Islam, the Dijjal sides with the Jews. The Dijjal fights against Muslims. Of the cast of chacters in the Islam end time, the Dijall appears last , after the other two characters have already immerged (the Mahdi and Isa).
So , no , I disagree with your claim that the Bible Antichrist is the Islamic Dijjal In the Bible , the Antichrist comes first.. followed by the False Prophet, followed by Jesus.
To my statement: “The Bible’s False Prophet is Islam’s Issa (Jesus)”
you said:
i do not understand. as far as i know, jesus is a key and positive figure in muslim apocalyptic scenarios.
Isa is a positive figure for whom? Certainly not for Christians or Jews. In Islam, Isa comes to kill the Jews and put an end to Christianity. Also, Isa is subordinate to the Mahdi.
In the Bible, this is the exact same role the False Prophet fills. Thus the Muslim Isa is the Bible’s False Prophet. The Bible says the FP is a wolf who appears as a lamb. Islam’s Isa will purport to be Jesus, the lamb.
the bible’s millennial kingdom of jesus’ rule corresponds to islam’s revived caliphate. in both cases, when believers thought that they were the agents of divine will to bring about the “perfect society” through boundless violence, they have wrought terrible destruction and suffering on those they claimed to “save”.
There is no similiarity between a Caliphate and the Millineum.
Sorry but you’re doing the most superficial sort of analysis. You’re taking categories like “The Good Guy”, “The Bad Guy”, “The promised kingdom” and then matching what the Bible says those thigns and what Islam says those things are.
I’m comparing the substance of the thing. What the experience is said to be.
I believe the two religions are describing the same events. The Muslims believe they’ll be on the side that kills the Christians and Jews… and the Bible says that hte Christians and Jews will be the ones to be killed during the End Time.
I could go on but not even sure if you’ll see this.
Comment by Vince P — April 14, 2008 @ 7:32 am