The original site carrying this pearl among a lot, is as follows:
“http://thepeoplescube.com/”.
This site contains state-of-the-art political graphics combined with witty, well conceived and hilarious commentaries. Absolutely a-must-site for every free, breathing political animal on the planet.
re: #3
How do you read hate, Nooman ? How do you fight it ?
The Arab media breathes by it, and the The Arab Street lives through it,daily ! Directly when somebody with guts and some brain dares to use a mirror to ironize the totalitarian, in this -ism, too, an apolegetic comes by and sees something we others do not ! So, tell us, Nooman. What do you see ?
The Cube isn’t LGF. It’s made by a gent from former USSR. Therefore the feat. And when the first Arab publishes a site like this Ukrainian, I’m gonna laugh as heartily, as I do now.
You call that ” hatred ” !?
Nooman does it hit too close to home?
That peoplescube chose to show the bestial character behind the mask in so succinct a manner is no reason not to be able to discuss it further.
“Two-minute hate” is a bit too strong, implying that the evil is a fabrication (like Orwell’s Goldstein). I do think the whole question needs more light and less heat, however.
#5: What I see is agitprop, an image designed to reconfirm the convictions of those who already despise Hamas, not to persuade the persuadable (that is, those in the ‘moral equivalency’ camp of ‘PCP1′). The way I see it, the principle value of Augean Stables is to provide instruments and materials for such rational persuasion. RL’s work on this site has assisted me in the last four years in many conversations with academics, editors, journalists, and other opinion makers in the city of Toronto. Perhaps its vanity, but I see Toronto, with its large Arab and Jewish population and hybrid American-European political atmosphere, as a front line and a testing ground for the war of ideas between true progressive liberalism and the devil’s pact of post-colonialism/political-Islam. Landes’s research and ideas have given me the tools to challenge and interrupt the reflex of ‘respectable opinion’ to side with what appears the weaker party.
I checked out the “peoplescube”, and the graphics are amusing, but the reasoning is facile– everyone who isn’t a free-market zealot and a neo-con hawk is a stalinist? I have not time for agitprop, and I’m not going to refer people to it whose opinion and goodwill I wish to persuade of the justice of Israel’s arguments and actions (when they are just).
an image designed to reconfirm the convictions of those who already despise Hamas,
but that is already Hamas’ image from their own TV, from their own public rants ala the Nuremburg rallies.
Doesn’t the MSM show what’s being beamed from Gaza?
I think several people here have come to the conclusion that the only way to proceed in this testing ground for the war of ideas between true progressive liberalism and the devil’s pact of post-colonialism/political-Islam.</em.
is to show them up in their mirror image.
The HJP understands the Arab-Israeli conflict through the prism of honor-shame culture and Islamic jihad. These elements of Arab culture are the main factors that have made it impossible to reach a solution to the conflict. Arab leaders view any compromise with Israel as “losing face,” since such an agreement would mean recognizing as a “worthy foe” an inferior group that should be subject.
and that goes for other kuffars, not just Jews, so Toronto as a melting pot for testing ideas … is the wrong assumption.
Especially when dealing with apocalyptic sects.
I find your second paragraph in #8 stigmatising and off topic. But thanks for acknowledging that you don’t like this or that site and don’t appreciate the black/red/blue humour. I got wiser reading them.
The image mocks a salient feature of Hamas. Bad taste indeed. About as bad as using babies and infants as human shields and then recycling them into fauxto-ops. I don’t think it’s meant to convince anyone. It’s not a cartoon of Sharon-the-Terrible eating innocent babies printed in your favourite daily.
This is an illustration of one of Hamas’ (and other terror movements/parties) real weaknesses: the moral one.
E.G.
My remarks about peoplescube were a response to Jukka. You accuse me of enjoying cartoons of Sharon eating babies but you find my dislike of a far-right gag site stigmatizing? So be it; I gladly stigmatize those who honestly compare Obama to Mao.
But we’re arguing different things. I’m not saying that the photo mischaracterizes Hamas. I would never absurdly claim that this image is of equivalent horror to what Hamas does to it’s children. What I’m saying is that there’s enough of that kind of thing out there already on the ‘net, but there’s not a lot of what the Augean Stables offers at its best: sober and rational analysis of a topic that muddles otherwise clear-headed people.
As you can tell, I don’t accept that support for Israel must come bundled with a bunch of right-wing beliefs any more than a left-winger has to be against Israel. What I like about what this site does is to unbundle analysis of the Israel-Palestine conflict from those reflexive associations.
If and when I do accuse you, you won’t need to invent: I’ll state it. Like this: I accuse you of judging people’s tastes according to your own criteria. Who made you judge of taste?
I don’t think this site is devoted to analysing the “Israel-palestine conflict”. Rather, it’s an ongoing analysis of media (mis)representation of Israel, her actions and her non-actions. That’s a different perspective. Not right or left, but right or wrong (on dimensions such as accuracy, precision, completeness, etc.).
E.G.
Why should I judge somebody’s taste by another’s criteria?
I agree with your second paragraph compeltely, but would just add that the media’s representation of Israel is a major part of the conflict. That’s why Pallywood/Hizbollywood/etc.. exists. If Hamas and other Palestinian elements should succeed through media manipulation in bringing about boycotts, divestments, and sanctions against Israel, then Israel’s strategic position is weakened.
What I see is agitprop, an image designed to reconfirm the convictions of those who already despise Hamas, not to persuade the persuadable
to be persuadable about hamas means (1) to be informed (b) to be able to reason. Anybody who by now does not comprehend what hamas is about either insists not to be informed, ignores the evidence or is unable/unwillng to interpret it properly. which means they are not persuadable.
I don’t accept that support for Israel must come bundled with a bunch of right-wing beliefs
What are right-wing beliefs in this case?
What is right-wing? Surely you mean conservative?
As for what we’ve seen any left-wing support of Israel is in the emasculatory sense.
If there is support for Israel then it must be based on facts and context.
Showing Hamas in its true colours is not stigmatizing but displaying Hamas’ in its own imagery.
unbundle analysis of the Israel-Palestine conflict from those reflexive associations.
Do you mean looking for excuses to explain their. in this case Hamas’, behaviour?
So be it; I gladly stigmatize those who honestly compare Obama to Mao.
well, just watch where america is going and let me know in a year or two whether the comparison is so off. i don’t mean the murderous nature, but rather the impact on the country.
What I’m saying is that there’s enough of that kind of thing out there already on the ‘net, but there’s not a lot of what the Augean Stables offers at its best: sober and rational analysis of a topic that muddles otherwise clear-headed people.
do you have any evidence that this site is more effective persuading than peoplescube? in fact, you assume a better quality of the audience that is available out there. and i would dare to argue that it’s this side that is read by those who already know what hamas is all about.
As you can tell, I don’t accept that support for Israel must come bundled with a bunch of right-wing beliefs any more than a left-winger has to be against Israel.
intellectual analysis is not accessible to all the masses. what is more, you badmouthed LGF which has explicitly gone against those naive enough to coopt the racist right-wingers in their fight against inslamism.
so please.
oao-
I’ve encountered the following argument: Comparable to the Soviet’s de facto abandonment of “worldwide revolution”, so the reasoning goes, Hamas might be led by practical concerns to abandon their charter’s call for Israel’s destruction. I think this argument is wrong because it doesn’t take seriously the religious/apocalyptic dimension of Hamas’s ideology. I don’t believe that everyone who buys this nonsense is willfully ignorant or misinfromed; they just don’t understand the mindset of the religious fanatic. This site offers arguments against such “cognitive egocentrism.”
As for your worries about Obama, I also hope that I don’t find myself kneeling on broken glass or smelting steel in my backyard if I should move back to the states. I have enough to put up with here in Canuckistan with the free health care and municipally subsidized day care for my child! All this oppresive statism… just awful.
What are right-wing beliefs in this case?
Skepticism of international law, derision for NGOs, appealing to force as the first recourse, belief that the honour-jihad paradigm is too indelibly fixed in the Arab mind to ever allow the possibility of a separate peace, and outright rejection of any Palestinian territorial aspirations as illegitimate.
What is right-wing? Surely you mean conservative?
How do you distinguish them?
As for what we’ve seen any left-wing support of Israel is in the emasculatory sense.
I don’t know what you mean by “emasculatory.” Do you mean that enjoining Israel to continue diplomacy with its enemies is “emasculating”? What would a “masculine” approach entail? Would it be sound and just?
If there is support for Israel then it must be based on facts and context.
Showing Hamas in its true colours is not stigmatizing but displaying Hamas’ in its own imagery.
I agree and I agree. Revealing Hamas (and their ilk) for what they are is essential. But the image above is clearly not Hamas’s own imagery, but a photoshop. I’m well aware that satire can reveal larger truths– I’m fond of satire– but I have to confess that I find this particular piece distasteful and exploitative. Obviously, the exploitation is many orders of magnitude lower than that practiced by Hamas “fighters,” but my bleeding pinko heart doesn’t like seeing children used as anybody’s prop.
unbundle analysis of the Israel-Palestine conflict from those reflexive associations.
Do you mean looking for excuses to explain their. in this case Hamas’, behaviour?
No. How did you infer that?
As for your worries about Obama, I also hope that I don’t find myself kneeling on broken glass or smelting steel in my backyard if I should move back to the states. I have enough to put up with here in
Canuckistan with the free health care and municipally subsidized day care for my child! All this oppresive statism… just awful.
I’ve always maintained that knowledge is not enough to understand reality. It also requires the intellectual ability to reason, to interpret evidence, to draw conclusions from it; an analytical, synthesizing critical mind too.
I don’t believe that everyone who buys this nonsense is willfully ignorant or misinfromed; they just don’t understand the mindset of the religious fanatic/apocalyptic dimension of Hamas’s ideology. I don’t believe that everyone who buys this nonsense is willfully ignorant or misinfromed; they just don’t understand the mindset of the religious fanatic.
but ask yourself WHY they don’t understand. the answer to this question is precisely that they are uninformed and unable to reason. and that is the fault of collapsing education, which allows the MSM to feed its audience crap instead of the truth and the audience to buy it. yes, this is not necessarily willful. by now nobody is even aware of it.
This site offers arguments against such “cognitive egocentrism.”
yes, but does it affect mass persuasion? that’s an impossible task by now.
I don’t identify rationality with assuming the worst of people, nor do I think late-antique elite despair to be hard-headedness.
I concede that it is difficult to get people to start thinking. But when the habit of thinking is acquired it is a difficult habit to break. This is not my faith– it’s also my experience as a tacher.
If Hamas and other Palestinian elements should succeed through media manipulation in bringing about boycotts, divestments, and sanctions against Israel, then Israel’s strategic position is weakened.
a. The Arabs of former Palestine have been manipulating media, govts and Intl. organisations (see: UNRWA) for the past 6 decades at least.
Look at just one aspect: the “narrative” is calibrated on the Jewish one (exile-dispossession-misery-persecution – Shoah “highlights”), while the population increased from less than 1M (including those who became Israelis) to some 5M, with thousands massacred by Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese…
b. It’s not Israel’s strategic position that’s weakened. It’s her legitimacy that’s challenged. And, in fine, her existence. It happened twice, without media intervention. Each era and its warfare technology.
Hamas uses children and youth both as “militants” – making them carry military gear from one civilian location to another, making them carry and use weapons or help rocket launchers – and as “innocent civilian casualties” when they’re hurt. It teaches children that death is the best thing that can happen to them. I’m sure this corresponds to your pedagogic ideals.
I don’t identify rationality with assuming the worst of people, nor do I think late-antique elite despair to be hard-headedness.
in theory one shouldn’t. in practice, it’s much more sensible. one does not assume the exceptions, but the rule.
I concede that it is difficult to get people to start thinking. But when the habit of thinking is acquired it is a difficult habit to break. This is not my faith– it’s also my experience as a tacher.
it is hard because education–whose task is to teach people how to think critically and independently–has collapsed. that’s why the habit is not to want to think.
Revealing Hamas (and their ilk) for what they are is essential. But the image above is clearly not Hamas’s own imagery, but a photoshop. I’m well aware that satire can reveal larger truths– I’m fond of satire– but I have to confess that I find this particular piece distasteful and exploitative. Obviously, the exploitation is many orders of magnitude lower than that practiced by Hamas “fighters,” but my bleeding pinko heart doesn’t like seeing children used as anybody’s prop.
Actually the image is of two Hamas images juxtaposed using photoshop.
Please go and look at images of Hamas manipulating their own children.
Look at video of Hamas grabbing young kids and running with them across a street to shield themselves from the Israelis who wouldn’t shoot in case of hitting the child.
So how does one disparage Hamas’ use of human shields in a manner to shame their inhumanity if the MSM won’t bring their liberal morals to publish such stories and display pictures and video?
I had a longish post to Nooman’s #21 Skepticism of international law, derision for NGOs, appealing to force as the first recourse, belief that the honour-jihad paradigm is too indelibly fixed in the Arab mind to ever allow the possibility of a separate peace, and outright rejection of any Palestinian territorial aspirations as illegitimate.
unbundle analysis of the Israel-Palestine conflict from those reflexive associations.
Do you mean looking for excuses to explain their. in this case Hamas’, behaviour?
No. How did you infer that?
Nooman,
How can one unbundle a person’s reflexive associations with the I/P conflict if one has been subjected to MSM concoctions and through one’s innate freedom to think and rationalise and express oneself one paints a picture of reality but in an impressionistic form?
We should then throw out all that stuff in the “art” galleries.
Well, if we don’t permit a person’s honest and sincere reflexive association then we don’t permit him to be honest. Then he must censor his thoughts before they are applied to paper, canvas or whatever.
em>Skepticism of international law, derision for NGOs, appealing to force as
the first recourse, belief that the honour-jihad paradigm is too indelibly
fixed in the Arab mind to ever allow the possibility of a separate peace, and
outright rejection of any Palestinian territorial aspirations as
illegitimate.
Nooman,
International law applied by the Hague and the UN using John Dugard, who was
professor of Law at Wits University in Johannesburg during the reign of
Apartheid, as Judge, and Special “whatever” to Kofi, to attack Israel as an
Apartheid state which is outright rubbish. He, and Tutu, for that matter
should know what apartheid was and in pushing the Hague’s and the UN’s agenda
is a liar.
Basically what he was trying to establish along with Tutu, Ateek of Sabeel,
the EU and others is that Israel
is denying the Arabs their stake in Israel.
As for the ONGs, well they are “sponsored” by governments. They get their
money from the EU, for example, with all the overriding clauses. If they are
one thing it is that they are not Non!
And if you have been in Africa you will discover that they are as corrupt as
any politician. Go read up on the history of Oxfam, the sans frontiers crowds
(the expired medicines and food) etc.
For the rest of the quote well just go back and read up firstly on the context
of the Israeli/Arab issue.
The three no’s of Khartoum, etc,. etc.
Please go and read up on Islam and understand that the Saudi Wahabbi sect and
the Iranian Shiite sect although in religious conflict with each other are at
one over Dar Al Islam and that means the whole world eventually.
The Muslims insist that Allah only speaks through them and that no other faith
(Jews, Christians, Hindus etc) is permitted. Why is the Bahai spritual centre
(Muslims) found in Israel after being almost wiped out in Iran?
The reality of the Qur’an, Hadith and Sira will not permit those people
accepting Palestinian territorial aspirations less than from the river to the
sea.
It is Islam alone that speaks for God, they must insist. Christians and Jews
must be denied their beliefs at all costs.
As for “Palestinian” aspirations well the Arab world made sure from the get go
that it is a zero sum game.
They were offered a state several times only to have the Arab world reject it.
It is not the “Right-wing” who reject a Palestinian state; what they reject is
the dismantling of the Jewish state. Please go and read up how the British
mistreated their League of Nations Mandate to create a Jewish homeland in what
remained of the Ottoman empire after the creation of the Arab states and how
they fought with the Arabs to destroy the newly independent state of Jews
accepted by the United Nations.
Had the West wanted they could have settled the business moons ago but it has
been in their interests to continue with a proxy war against the
Israelis/Jews.
When the Israelis started developing infrastructure in Gaza after 1967 (please
study what the Egyptians and the Jordanians did during their tenure) the UN
howled blue murder and resolutions were passed demanding that Israel stop
putting those displaced Arabs in proper housing and return them to their
refugee status for UNWRA to keep a hold on. Stop the building of roads, piped
water and proper sewage.
Arafat had he not been a rogue and come to an agreement as Sadat did would
have ended up the same way.
Stop dreaming about right-wing baddies, neo-cons et al. The biggest
hoax of the 20th century was the fascist left disinformation which portrayed
the Nazis as right-wing when in fact they were Socialists of the Left as
Hitler reinforced in his 1927 Mayday speech.
Everything especially in Kanadia is soo PC and censored when it comes to a
certain other but just so In when the Juice are at the receiving end.
So how does one disparage Hamas’ use of human shields in a manner to shame their inhumanity if the MSM won’t bring their liberal morals to publish such stories and display pictures and video?
cynic, i don’t think you’ll get thru to nooman. he has the usual need to criticize responses to barbarism rather the barbarism itself, because it is “our” response.
Then he must censor his thoughts before they are applied to paper, canvas or whatever.
which is exactly what the jihadists are achieving in the west.
Cynic, how can you be so cynical about the UN? One might think that you accuse the UN, UNRWA specifically, of working for war, not peace. Next you’ll be telling us that Prez Hopenchange wants to send large forces of US troops to Afghanistan where they will have a better, more fun time than in Iraq. Who can believe such rightist heresy??!!
Eliyahu,
A long time ago during the age of Apartheid the UN sent two observers to South West Africa to report on the situation.
Anyway poor Mr Carpio found that the rule under the then South African government was not bad. Immediately he was removed from the scene on the excuse that the coffee made him sick.
As a chance reading of some South African papers at the time I got a whiff of what they termed the Carpio Coffee Incident.
And my cynicism never looked back :-)
I cannot win. :-) All the time I pointed out the reality I was criticized as a cynic (Merriam Webster defines it as a fault finding “captious critic” {ill-natured inclination to stress faults and raise objections})
Now what can be ill-natured in stressing the faults we find in those (MSM, politicians et al) disturbing our daily reverie?
Seems like M W is being run by the NYT & co.
• noun 1 a person who has little faith in the integrity or sincerity of others. 2 a sceptic. 3 (Cynic) (in ancient Greece) a member of a school of philosophers founded by Antisthenes, characterized by an ostentatious contempt for wealth and pleasure.
— DERIVATIVES cynicism noun.
— ORIGIN Greek kunikos; probably originally from Kunosarges, the name of a gymnasium where the philosopher Antisthenes taught, but popularly taken to mean ‘doglike, churlish’, kuon ‘dog’ becoming a nickname for a Cynic.
All the time I pointed out the reality I was criticized as a cynic
c’mon, if you were pointing out reality, then calling you a cynic was nonsense. i know, because i had the same experience.
we both know that those who cannot and won’t face reality hate those who make them face it and calling them cynics is the way to remain in denial and marginalize them. and that’s the vast majority.
it’s not a highly intellectual book (to put it politely), but it offers evidence for what we all suspect and exposes what we all suspect is behind his behavior. scary.
I believe some refer to the “sceptic” sense (not taking things at their face value), whereas others may be referring to the tendency to systematically challenge accepted truths conjoined by offering an alternative, severe, account.
For ex., Questioning whether the Emperor actually wears new clothes, or perhaps old clothes, or perhaps no clothes, vs. stating that the Emperor is naked, because he’s stupid enough to believe his crooked tailors, and the good people are cowards and hypocrites because they behave as if they were blind to the evidence.
characterized by an ostentatious contempt for wealth and pleasure.
Rubbish. What nonsense. How I love my pleasures, those little pleasures that titillate the taste buds, those that provide an eyeful of enjoyment; need I go on?
Wealth; well I can do with some of that right now. It wouldn’t hurt by half.
That part of the definition smells of sour grapes.
E.G.,
In the great AGW ruckus the skeptics are the one’s looking at the reality of the data and voicing their skepticism of the theories advanced to make the Rev Al wealthier.
The skeptics have been declared the “unbelievers” in the religion of Gorbal Warmening; apostates by another name, and should have fatwas inscribed in carbon offsets against them.
With regard to banks, unfortunately they hold the public prisoner ripping off profits disproportionate to the service they offer and with the connivance of the govt.
Now how can that little boy be heard?
In Britain with the FSA on hand that should not be too difficult, eh what????? but where are the “confederates” to provide the social pressure to make the customers into little boys?
Here, no chance.
As for the Hutu like mentality of the bankers along with their ministry of finance chums where will the free market manage a foothold?
What would have helped the little boy would have been Congress letting the “bad banks” go to the wall and that would have reverberated around part of the world, but ….
While one can get one or two to protest there is not enough social pressure to get society as a whole on the “Bank” wagon.
The second useful insight of social psychology is that humans like to be consistent. We tell ourselves stories and are incredibly reluctant to abandon them. Indeed Tim Lott, in his magnificent memoir The Scent of Dried Roses, argues convincingly that being forced to abandon the story that you have told yourself, is such a threat to identity that it can lead a vulnerable person to suicide.
Yes. That’s what RL has been opening his reader’s eyes to when discussing the dirt in the stables.
And the free market remains the best way to get him to speak up.”
there is no free market, that’s an llusion. no market is completely free. there are various degrees of regulation, mnipulation and control by either the govt or by participants.
the US is just relatively freer market than others (and that’s not saying much given what the others are). in fact, the US is by and large a corporate welfare system, which socializes costs and privatizes profits.
What would have helped the little boy would have been Congress letting the “bad banks” go to the wall and that would have reverberated around part of the world, but ….
markets must be regulated to be free and not to self-destruct. this is a completely different kind of regulation than the one actually performed by the govt. who is in the pocket of the large corporations.
the whole system is corrupted to the core and nothing short of a revolution will save it. instead we got alibama and the dhimmicrats, who are worse than the repugnicans.
How Hamas fights Israel:
1. Attack Israel with Qassams
2. Hide in a school or a hospital
3. Provoke return fire to Palestinian children
4. Call journalists to take remains pictures
5. For any problems call the UN
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Hamas: Intifada Baby Armor…
Brilliant: [via Augean Stables]……
The original site carrying this pearl among a lot, is as follows:
“http://thepeoplescube.com/”.
This site contains state-of-the-art political graphics combined with witty, well conceived and hilarious commentaries. Absolutely a-must-site for every free, breathing political animal on the planet.
I expect more substance and less two-minute-hate-type stuff out of this site than LGF. This is easy and disappointing.
to N00man:
i did think twice before posting, but it was too close to reality, and too illustrative of my point about palestinian suffering to pass up.
for another example, see: arab pride again trumps people.
re: #3
How do you read hate, Nooman ? How do you fight it ?
The Arab media breathes by it, and the The Arab Street lives through it,daily ! Directly when somebody with guts and some brain dares to use a mirror to ironize the totalitarian, in this -ism, too, an apolegetic comes by and sees something we others do not ! So, tell us, Nooman. What do you see ?
The Cube isn’t LGF. It’s made by a gent from former USSR. Therefore the feat. And when the first Arab publishes a site like this Ukrainian, I’m gonna laugh as heartily, as I do now.
You call that ” hatred ” !?
Nooman does it hit too close to home?
That peoplescube chose to show the bestial character behind the mask in so succinct a manner is no reason not to be able to discuss it further.
“Two-minute hate” is a bit too strong, implying that the evil is a fabrication (like Orwell’s Goldstein). I do think the whole question needs more light and less heat, however.
#5: What I see is agitprop, an image designed to reconfirm the convictions of those who already despise Hamas, not to persuade the persuadable (that is, those in the ‘moral equivalency’ camp of ‘PCP1′). The way I see it, the principle value of Augean Stables is to provide instruments and materials for such rational persuasion. RL’s work on this site has assisted me in the last four years in many conversations with academics, editors, journalists, and other opinion makers in the city of Toronto. Perhaps its vanity, but I see Toronto, with its large Arab and Jewish population and hybrid American-European political atmosphere, as a front line and a testing ground for the war of ideas between true progressive liberalism and the devil’s pact of post-colonialism/political-Islam. Landes’s research and ideas have given me the tools to challenge and interrupt the reflex of ‘respectable opinion’ to side with what appears the weaker party.
I checked out the “peoplescube”, and the graphics are amusing, but the reasoning is facile– everyone who isn’t a free-market zealot and a neo-con hawk is a stalinist? I have not time for agitprop, and I’m not going to refer people to it whose opinion and goodwill I wish to persuade of the justice of Israel’s arguments and actions (when they are just).
an image designed to reconfirm the convictions of those who already despise Hamas,
but that is already Hamas’ image from their own TV, from their own public rants ala the Nuremburg rallies.
Doesn’t the MSM show what’s being beamed from Gaza?
I think several people here have come to the conclusion that the only way to proceed in this testing ground for the war of ideas between true progressive liberalism and the devil’s pact of post-colonialism/political-Islam.</em.
is to show them up in their mirror image.
We are dealing with a zero-sum game by a tribal/clan culture fused by the Honor/Shame Paradigm
Part III of “Paradigms and the Middle East Conflict.”
The HJP understands the Arab-Israeli conflict through the prism of honor-shame culture and Islamic jihad. These elements of Arab culture are the main factors that have made it impossible to reach a solution to the conflict. Arab leaders view any compromise with Israel as “losing face,” since such an agreement would mean recognizing as a “worthy foe” an inferior group that should be subject.
and that goes for other kuffars, not just Jews, so Toronto as a melting pot for testing ideas … is the wrong assumption.
Especially when dealing with apocalyptic sects.
N00man,
I find your second paragraph in #8 stigmatising and off topic. But thanks for acknowledging that you don’t like this or that site and don’t appreciate the black/red/blue humour. I got wiser reading them.
The image mocks a salient feature of Hamas. Bad taste indeed. About as bad as using babies and infants as human shields and then recycling them into fauxto-ops. I don’t think it’s meant to convince anyone. It’s not a cartoon of Sharon-the-Terrible eating innocent babies printed in your favourite daily.
This is an illustration of one of Hamas’ (and other terror movements/parties) real weaknesses: the moral one.
Some interesting insights in the blog below, especially the concept of DARVO (Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender).
http://cgis.jpost.com/Blogs/point/entry/understanding_the_war_crimes_accusations
E.G.
My remarks about peoplescube were a response to Jukka. You accuse me of enjoying cartoons of Sharon eating babies but you find my dislike of a far-right gag site stigmatizing? So be it; I gladly stigmatize those who honestly compare Obama to Mao.
But we’re arguing different things. I’m not saying that the photo mischaracterizes Hamas. I would never absurdly claim that this image is of equivalent horror to what Hamas does to it’s children. What I’m saying is that there’s enough of that kind of thing out there already on the ‘net, but there’s not a lot of what the Augean Stables offers at its best: sober and rational analysis of a topic that muddles otherwise clear-headed people.
As you can tell, I don’t accept that support for Israel must come bundled with a bunch of right-wing beliefs any more than a left-winger has to be against Israel. What I like about what this site does is to unbundle analysis of the Israel-Palestine conflict from those reflexive associations.
N00man,
If and when I do accuse you, you won’t need to invent: I’ll state it. Like this: I accuse you of judging people’s tastes according to your own criteria. Who made you judge of taste?
I don’t think this site is devoted to analysing the “Israel-palestine conflict”. Rather, it’s an ongoing analysis of media (mis)representation of Israel, her actions and her non-actions. That’s a different perspective. Not right or left, but right or wrong (on dimensions such as accuracy, precision, completeness, etc.).
The Cube isn’t LGF.
what’s wrong with LGF? for somebody who holds your position, why do you seem to agree that there’s something wrong with it?
E.G.
Why should I judge somebody’s taste by another’s criteria?
I agree with your second paragraph compeltely, but would just add that the media’s representation of Israel is a major part of the conflict. That’s why Pallywood/Hizbollywood/etc.. exists. If Hamas and other Palestinian elements should succeed through media manipulation in bringing about boycotts, divestments, and sanctions against Israel, then Israel’s strategic position is weakened.
What I see is agitprop, an image designed to reconfirm the convictions of those who already despise Hamas, not to persuade the persuadable
to be persuadable about hamas means (1) to be informed (b) to be able to reason. Anybody who by now does not comprehend what hamas is about either insists not to be informed, ignores the evidence or is unable/unwillng to interpret it properly. which means they are not persuadable.
I don’t accept that support for Israel must come bundled with a bunch of right-wing beliefs
What are right-wing beliefs in this case?
What is right-wing? Surely you mean conservative?
As for what we’ve seen any left-wing support of Israel is in the emasculatory sense.
If there is support for Israel then it must be based on facts and context.
Showing Hamas in its true colours is not stigmatizing but displaying Hamas’ in its own imagery.
unbundle analysis of the Israel-Palestine conflict from those reflexive associations.
Do you mean looking for excuses to explain their. in this case Hamas’, behaviour?
So be it; I gladly stigmatize those who honestly compare Obama to Mao.
well, just watch where america is going and let me know in a year or two whether the comparison is so off. i don’t mean the murderous nature, but rather the impact on the country.
What I’m saying is that there’s enough of that kind of thing out there already on the ‘net, but there’s not a lot of what the Augean Stables offers at its best: sober and rational analysis of a topic that muddles otherwise clear-headed people.
do you have any evidence that this site is more effective persuading than peoplescube? in fact, you assume a better quality of the audience that is available out there. and i would dare to argue that it’s this side that is read by those who already know what hamas is all about.
As you can tell, I don’t accept that support for Israel must come bundled with a bunch of right-wing beliefs any more than a left-winger has to be against Israel.
intellectual analysis is not accessible to all the masses. what is more, you badmouthed LGF which has explicitly gone against those naive enough to coopt the racist right-wingers in their fight against inslamism.
so please.
oao-
I’ve encountered the following argument: Comparable to the Soviet’s de facto abandonment of “worldwide revolution”, so the reasoning goes, Hamas might be led by practical concerns to abandon their charter’s call for Israel’s destruction. I think this argument is wrong because it doesn’t take seriously the religious/apocalyptic dimension of Hamas’s ideology. I don’t believe that everyone who buys this nonsense is willfully ignorant or misinfromed; they just don’t understand the mindset of the religious fanatic. This site offers arguments against such “cognitive egocentrism.”
As for your worries about Obama, I also hope that I don’t find myself kneeling on broken glass or smelting steel in my backyard if I should move back to the states. I have enough to put up with here in Canuckistan with the free health care and municipally subsidized day care for my child! All this oppresive statism… just awful.
Also,
you badmouthed LGF which has explicitly gone against those naive enough to coopt the racist right-wingers in their fight against inslamism.
What?
Cynic:
What are right-wing beliefs in this case?
Skepticism of international law, derision for NGOs, appealing to force as the first recourse, belief that the honour-jihad paradigm is too indelibly fixed in the Arab mind to ever allow the possibility of a separate peace, and outright rejection of any Palestinian territorial aspirations as illegitimate.
What is right-wing? Surely you mean conservative?
How do you distinguish them?
As for what we’ve seen any left-wing support of Israel is in the emasculatory sense.
I don’t know what you mean by “emasculatory.” Do you mean that enjoining Israel to continue diplomacy with its enemies is “emasculating”? What would a “masculine” approach entail? Would it be sound and just?
If there is support for Israel then it must be based on facts and context.
Showing Hamas in its true colours is not stigmatizing but displaying Hamas’ in its own imagery.
I agree and I agree. Revealing Hamas (and their ilk) for what they are is essential. But the image above is clearly not Hamas’s own imagery, but a photoshop. I’m well aware that satire can reveal larger truths– I’m fond of satire– but I have to confess that I find this particular piece distasteful and exploitative. Obviously, the exploitation is many orders of magnitude lower than that practiced by Hamas “fighters,” but my bleeding pinko heart doesn’t like seeing children used as anybody’s prop.
unbundle analysis of the Israel-Palestine conflict from those reflexive associations.
Do you mean looking for excuses to explain their. in this case Hamas’, behaviour?
No. How did you infer that?
Noo man,
As for your worries about Obama, I also hope that I don’t find myself kneeling on broken glass or smelting steel in my backyard if I should move back to the states. I have enough to put up with here in
Canuckistan with the free health care and municipally subsidized day care for my child! All this oppresive statism… just awful.
I’ve always maintained that knowledge is not enough to understand reality. It also requires the intellectual ability to reason, to interpret evidence, to draw conclusions from it; an analytical, synthesizing critical mind too.
here’s an example:
http://www.solomonia.com/blog/archive/2009/02/obama-v-the-real-world/index.shtml
Enough said.
I don’t believe that everyone who buys this nonsense is willfully ignorant or misinfromed; they just don’t understand the mindset of the religious fanatic/apocalyptic dimension of Hamas’s ideology. I don’t believe that everyone who buys this nonsense is willfully ignorant or misinfromed; they just don’t understand the mindset of the religious fanatic.
but ask yourself WHY they don’t understand. the answer to this question is precisely that they are uninformed and unable to reason. and that is the fault of collapsing education, which allows the MSM to feed its audience crap instead of the truth and the audience to buy it. yes, this is not necessarily willful. by now nobody is even aware of it.
This site offers arguments against such “cognitive egocentrism.”
yes, but does it affect mass persuasion? that’s an impossible task by now.
oao
I don’t identify rationality with assuming the worst of people, nor do I think late-antique elite despair to be hard-headedness.
I concede that it is difficult to get people to start thinking. But when the habit of thinking is acquired it is a difficult habit to break. This is not my faith– it’s also my experience as a tacher.
N00man,
If Hamas and other Palestinian elements should succeed through media manipulation in bringing about boycotts, divestments, and sanctions against Israel, then Israel’s strategic position is weakened.
a. The Arabs of former Palestine have been manipulating media, govts and Intl. organisations (see: UNRWA) for the past 6 decades at least.
Look at just one aspect: the “narrative” is calibrated on the Jewish one (exile-dispossession-misery-persecution – Shoah “highlights”), while the population increased from less than 1M (including those who became Israelis) to some 5M, with thousands massacred by Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese…
b. It’s not Israel’s strategic position that’s weakened. It’s her legitimacy that’s challenged. And, in fine, her existence. It happened twice, without media intervention. Each era and its warfare technology.
Hamas uses children and youth both as “militants” – making them carry military gear from one civilian location to another, making them carry and use weapons or help rocket launchers – and as “innocent civilian casualties” when they’re hurt. It teaches children that death is the best thing that can happen to them. I’m sure this corresponds to your pedagogic ideals.
I don’t identify rationality with assuming the worst of people, nor do I think late-antique elite despair to be hard-headedness.
in theory one shouldn’t. in practice, it’s much more sensible. one does not assume the exceptions, but the rule.
I concede that it is difficult to get people to start thinking. But when the habit of thinking is acquired it is a difficult habit to break. This is not my faith– it’s also my experience as a tacher.
it is hard because education–whose task is to teach people how to think critically and independently–has collapsed. that’s why the habit is not to want to think.
The Arabs of former Palestine have been manipulating media, govts and Intl. organisations (see: UNRWA) for the past 6 decades at least.
it is now that it’s achieving its objective.
It’s not Israel’s strategic position that’s weakened. It’s her legitimacy that’s challenged. And, in fine, her existence.
but isn’t israel’s strategic position to exist in the long run?
but isn’t israel’s strategic position to exist in the long run?
No, it’s her natural right.
Revealing Hamas (and their ilk) for what they are is essential. But the image above is clearly not Hamas’s own imagery, but a photoshop. I’m well aware that satire can reveal larger truths– I’m fond of satire– but I have to confess that I find this particular piece distasteful and exploitative. Obviously, the exploitation is many orders of magnitude lower than that practiced by Hamas “fighters,” but my bleeding pinko heart doesn’t like seeing children used as anybody’s prop.
Actually the image is of two Hamas images juxtaposed using photoshop.
Please go and look at images of Hamas manipulating their own children.
Look at video of Hamas grabbing young kids and running with them across a street to shield themselves from the Israelis who wouldn’t shoot in case of hitting the child.
So how does one disparage Hamas’ use of human shields in a manner to shame their inhumanity if the MSM won’t bring their liberal morals to publish such stories and display pictures and video?
I had a longish post to Nooman’s #21
Skepticism of international law, derision for NGOs, appealing to force as the first recourse, belief that the honour-jihad paradigm is too indelibly fixed in the Arab mind to ever allow the possibility of a separate peace, and outright rejection of any Palestinian territorial aspirations as illegitimate.
but wordpress doesn’t seem to want it to appear.
unbundle analysis of the Israel-Palestine conflict from those reflexive associations.
Do you mean looking for excuses to explain their. in this case Hamas’, behaviour?
No. How did you infer that?
Nooman,
How can one unbundle a person’s reflexive associations with the I/P conflict if one has been subjected to MSM concoctions and through one’s innate freedom to think and rationalise and express oneself one paints a picture of reality but in an impressionistic form?
We should then throw out all that stuff in the “art” galleries.
Well, if we don’t permit a person’s honest and sincere reflexive association then we don’t permit him to be honest. Then he must censor his thoughts before they are applied to paper, canvas or whatever.
em>Skepticism of international law, derision for NGOs, appealing to force as
the first recourse, belief that the honour-jihad paradigm is too indelibly
fixed in the Arab mind to ever allow the possibility of a separate peace, and
outright rejection of any Palestinian territorial aspirations as
illegitimate.
Nooman,
International law applied by the Hague and the UN using John Dugard, who was
professor of Law at Wits University in Johannesburg during the reign of
Apartheid, as Judge, and Special “whatever” to Kofi, to attack Israel as an
Apartheid state which is outright rubbish. He, and Tutu, for that matter
should know what apartheid was and in pushing the Hague’s and the UN’s agenda
is a liar.
Basically what he was trying to establish along with Tutu, Ateek of Sabeel,
the EU and others is that Israel
is denying the Arabs their stake in Israel.
As for the ONGs, well they are “sponsored” by governments. They get their
money from the EU, for example, with all the overriding clauses. If they are
one thing it is that they are not Non!
And if you have been in Africa you will discover that they are as corrupt as
any politician. Go read up on the history of Oxfam, the sans frontiers crowds
(the expired medicines and food) etc.
For the rest of the quote well just go back and read up firstly on the context
of the Israeli/Arab issue.
The three no’s of Khartoum, etc,. etc.
Please go and read up on Islam and understand that the Saudi Wahabbi sect and
the Iranian Shiite sect although in religious conflict with each other are at
one over Dar Al Islam and that means the whole world eventually.
The Muslims insist that Allah only speaks through them and that no other faith
(Jews, Christians, Hindus etc) is permitted. Why is the Bahai spritual centre
(Muslims) found in Israel after being almost wiped out in Iran?
The reality of the Qur’an, Hadith and Sira will not permit those people
accepting Palestinian territorial aspirations less than from the river to the
sea.
It is Islam alone that speaks for God, they must insist. Christians and Jews
must be denied their beliefs at all costs.
As for “Palestinian” aspirations well the Arab world made sure from the get go
that it is a zero sum game.
They were offered a state several times only to have the Arab world reject it.
It is not the “Right-wing” who reject a Palestinian state; what they reject is
the dismantling of the Jewish state. Please go and read up how the British
mistreated their League of Nations Mandate to create a Jewish homeland in what
remained of the Ottoman empire after the creation of the Arab states and how
they fought with the Arabs to destroy the newly independent state of Jews
accepted by the United Nations.
Had the West wanted they could have settled the business moons ago but it has
been in their interests to continue with a proxy war against the
Israelis/Jews.
When the Israelis started developing infrastructure in Gaza after 1967 (please
study what the Egyptians and the Jordanians did during their tenure) the UN
howled blue murder and resolutions were passed demanding that Israel stop
putting those displaced Arabs in proper housing and return them to their
refugee status for UNWRA to keep a hold on. Stop the building of roads, piped
water and proper sewage.
Arafat had he not been a rogue and come to an agreement as Sadat did would
have ended up the same way.
Stop dreaming about right-wing baddies, neo-cons et al. The biggest
hoax of the 20th century was the fascist left disinformation which portrayed
the Nazis as right-wing when in fact they were Socialists of the Left as
Hitler reinforced in his 1927 Mayday speech.
Everything especially in Kanadia is soo PC and censored when it comes to a
certain other but just so In when the Juice are at the receiving end.
No, it’s her natural right.
which is not respected by the world, in which case the strategy is to protect her natural right of existence.
So how does one disparage Hamas’ use of human shields in a manner to shame their inhumanity if the MSM won’t bring their liberal morals to publish such stories and display pictures and video?
cynic, i don’t think you’ll get thru to nooman. he has the usual need to criticize responses to barbarism rather the barbarism itself, because it is “our” response.
Then he must censor his thoughts before they are applied to paper, canvas or whatever.
which is exactly what the jihadists are achieving in the west.
he has the usual need to criticize responses to barbarism rather the barbarism itself, because it is “our” response.
Let me offer a glimpse into “our” response. I also have a link to a longer, more elaborate version.
Ethical Dilemmas in Fighting Terrorism
Let me offer a glimpse into “our” response.
I get server not found for the link.
there is twice “http” at the beginning
this is for nooman:
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2009/02/just-like-us-video.html
who complains about photos about hamas
Cynic, how can you be so cynical about the UN? One might think that you accuse the UN, UNRWA specifically, of working for war, not peace. Next you’ll be telling us that Prez Hopenchange wants to send large forces of US troops to Afghanistan where they will have a better, more fun time than in Iraq. Who can believe such rightist heresy??!!
Eliyahu,
A long time ago during the age of Apartheid the UN sent two observers to South West Africa to report on the situation.
Anyway poor Mr Carpio found that the rule under the then South African government was not bad. Immediately he was removed from the scene on the excuse that the coffee made him sick.
As a chance reading of some South African papers at the time I got a whiff of what they termed the Carpio Coffee Incident.
And my cynicism never looked back :-)
Let’s leave Alibama and the 40 thieves for later, OK?
And my cynicism never looked back :-)
but that’s not cynicism, it’s realism!!! you are belaboring under false pretenses.
oao,
I cannot win. :-) All the time I pointed out the reality I was criticized as a cynic (Merriam Webster defines it as a fault finding “captious critic” {ill-natured inclination to stress faults and raise objections})
Now what can be ill-natured in stressing the faults we find in those (MSM, politicians et al) disturbing our daily reverie?
Seems like M W is being run by the NYT & co.
What’s M W?
Duh, it’s the dictionary.
Here’s the Oxford dictionary definition:
cynic
/sinnik/
• noun 1 a person who has little faith in the integrity or sincerity of others. 2 a sceptic. 3 (Cynic) (in ancient Greece) a member of a school of philosophers founded by Antisthenes, characterized by an ostentatious contempt for wealth and pleasure.
— DERIVATIVES cynicism noun.
— ORIGIN Greek kunikos; probably originally from Kunosarges, the name of a gymnasium where the philosopher Antisthenes taught, but popularly taken to mean ‘doglike, churlish’, kuon ‘dog’ becoming a nickname for a Cynic.
All the time I pointed out the reality I was criticized as a cynic
c’mon, if you were pointing out reality, then calling you a cynic was nonsense. i know, because i had the same experience.
we both know that those who cannot and won’t face reality hate those who make them face it and calling them cynics is the way to remain in denial and marginalize them. and that’s the vast majority.
Let’s leave Alibama and the 40 thieves for later, OK?
i don’t think he’ll leave us much time.
btw, i strongly recommend this:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1416598065/bookstorenow99-20
it’s not a highly intellectual book (to put it politely), but it offers evidence for what we all suspect and exposes what we all suspect is behind his behavior. scary.
Duh, it’s the dictionary.
ok, ok, but you were not referring to lack of trust in others, but in exposing reality.
oao,
Duh was my reply to my own silly question (#44).
I believe some refer to the “sceptic” sense (not taking things at their face value), whereas others may be referring to the tendency to systematically challenge accepted truths conjoined by offering an alternative, severe, account.
For ex., Questioning whether the Emperor actually wears new clothes, or perhaps old clothes, or perhaps no clothes, vs. stating that the Emperor is naked, because he’s stupid enough to believe his crooked tailors, and the good people are cowards and hypocrites because they behave as if they were blind to the evidence.
characterized by an ostentatious contempt for wealth and pleasure.
Rubbish. What nonsense. How I love my pleasures, those little pleasures that titillate the taste buds, those that provide an eyeful of enjoyment; need I go on?
Wealth; well I can do with some of that right now. It wouldn’t hurt by half.
That part of the definition smells of sour grapes.
#49
E.G.,
In the great AGW ruckus the skeptics are the one’s looking at the reality of the data and voicing their skepticism of the theories advanced to make the Rev Al wealthier.
The skeptics have been declared the “unbelievers” in the religion of Gorbal Warmening; apostates by another name, and should have fatwas inscribed in carbon offsets against them.
Cynic,
“We need the little boy who noticed that the Emperor had no clothes. And the free market remains the best way to get him to speak up.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/daniel_finkelstein/article5704480.ece
(I just read it)
E.G.
With regard to banks, unfortunately they hold the public prisoner ripping off profits disproportionate to the service they offer and with the connivance of the govt.
Now how can that little boy be heard?
In Britain with the FSA on hand that should not be too difficult, eh what????? but where are the “confederates” to provide the social pressure to make the customers into little boys?
Here, no chance.
As for the Hutu like mentality of the bankers along with their ministry of finance chums where will the free market manage a foothold?
What would have helped the little boy would have been Congress letting the “bad banks” go to the wall and that would have reverberated around part of the world, but ….
While one can get one or two to protest there is not enough social pressure to get society as a whole on the “Bank” wagon.
The second useful insight of social psychology is that humans like to be consistent. We tell ourselves stories and are incredibly reluctant to abandon them. Indeed Tim Lott, in his magnificent memoir The Scent of Dried Roses, argues convincingly that being forced to abandon the story that you have told yourself, is such a threat to identity that it can lead a vulnerable person to suicide.
Yes. That’s what RL has been opening his reader’s eyes to when discussing the dirt in the stables.
And the free market remains the best way to get him to speak up.”
there is no free market, that’s an llusion. no market is completely free. there are various degrees of regulation, mnipulation and control by either the govt or by participants.
the US is just relatively freer market than others (and that’s not saying much given what the others are). in fact, the US is by and large a corporate welfare system, which socializes costs and privatizes profits.
What would have helped the little boy would have been Congress letting the “bad banks” go to the wall and that would have reverberated around part of the world, but ….
markets must be regulated to be free and not to self-destruct. this is a completely different kind of regulation than the one actually performed by the govt. who is in the pocket of the large corporations.
the whole system is corrupted to the core and nothing short of a revolution will save it. instead we got alibama and the dhimmicrats, who are worse than the repugnicans.
it’s over, folks.
How Hamas fights Israel:
1. Attack Israel with Qassams
2. Hide in a school or a hospital
3. Provoke return fire to Palestinian children
4. Call journalists to take remains pictures
5. For any problems call the UN
How Hamas fights Israel
pretty effective, wouldn’t you say, given the asses on the receiving end?