One of my commenters recently wrote me off-line to warn me about trolls, identifying Imran Ahmed as a possibility. I’m not sure, personally. He strikes me as a fairly honest person, in the sense that he tells you just what he’s thinking (however muddled), and as such, worth responding to seriously. The test of his real honesty, will be in how he responds to our challenges. So far, he hasn’t done too well. Below, I analyze his comments, the responses he’s given to other commenters at the site, pose him questions (in bold).
Please, Imran, feel free to answer any or all of my questions.
Imran’s comments came in response to a piece I posted with Nidra Poller’s analysis of the dynamics of Eurabia.
Comment by Imran Ahmed — February 27, 2009
HA HA HA. That’s all I can say about a bunch of scared fools who cant remember history well enough to realize their own religious acts from the past. The only difference was that at that time there were no CNN, Blogs, Internet, Media etc.
Last time I check:
1. Jews didnt like Jesus Christ that well – if you know what I mean.. So did Christians banned Jew’s book?
2. During all Crusades – more Jews were killed by Christens then ever… what happened to that party?
Here’s a passage from wikipedia: “For the first decade, the Crusaders pursued a policy of terror against Muslims and Jews that included mass executions, the throwing of severed heads over besieged cities walls, exhibition and mutilation of naked cadavers, and even cannibalism…”
3. Hitler was also from a religion.. so why didn’t you Jews classify entire Christianity as an AIDS virus?
Similarly, there are millions of other questions..
People, the answers to all these questions is simple: there was no media, no internet at that time… otherwise the crime, the terror, the hostility, the horror committed at that time against Muslims, Jews or Christians are even sometimes impossible to imagine. Not even the writers of Friday the 13th could imagine that torture.
So, lets face it.. its been always a triple threat match between Jews, Christians and Muslims… However none of our religious books actually (and I mean ACTUALLY) signals hate or torture.
I’m not fully sure of what the point is here. On the one hand, there’s a point I agree with: without the eye of the camera, terrible things happened; on the other hand, since Muslims were among the most vicious — and continue to be… what are you saying?
The only problem was and still is, that if one guy wakes up one day to say – “This Religion is Crap – they are taking over, they are this, they are that…. bla bla bla..”, He only is trying to light-up a a fuel tank..
Presuming here that the “guy” who wakes up one day is the non-Muslim and the “crappy religion” that wants to take over bla bla bla is Islam, then the non-Muslim (i.e., infidel) is trying to light up a fuel tank, namely religious war? or Islam? This, of course, leaves the issue of whether Islam is, indeed “taking over.”
If you Christians and Jews think that Islam is taking over Europe.. I’ve got two questions:
1) Was Europe born with your religion? or did you took over it before we did?
Isn’t that jumping the gun? You haven’t taken over yet. But let’s say you meant, “before we set out to take it over.” In which case there are two answers:
a) Europe has, over the last two millennia, been the subject of constant invasions, some of them successful — Celts, Roman, Germans — some less successful — Huns, Saracens (Muslims), Magyars (Hungarians), Northmen (Scandinavians), and Turks (Muslims again). So, yes, in the “longue durée” it’s conquer or be conquered. But that just leaves us at, Muslims are trying to conquer and Europe wants to/should defend itself (if it can).
b) Europe was not Europe until the last millennium. (Some say that Charlemagne was Pater Europae, but that paternity was really post-mortem. From the eleventh century onwards, the “Europeans” made Europe what it is today — the richest and most powerful civilization the world has seen. So again, surely Imran, you don’t mind if they defend themselves from attack, right?
2) If you are so civilized and “Better than us” – then try to stop it like as if you are indeed “Better than us”. I mean preach your religion, show dignity of your beliefs, show ppl that yours better. it would only be a fair competition. What? are you scared of some competition from as you calls it “just another religion”? the all mighty Chris-Jews combination is scared now… hahaha.. you’ve got to be kitting me.
I agree completely with you. But Muslims aren’t playing by those rules. On the contrary, they bully and riot, and show no dignity when they get hysterical over criticism or lack of respect. I’m think you do that because in a really level playing-field (i.e., no coercion, market-place of ideas) your religion will not carry much weight. So you operate on the principle that if you look like a winner, and a nasty winner at that, people will join your side to avoid the fate of losers when you win. Your ha ha ha sounds a lot like a bully’s laugh.
Finally, let me tell you one thing:
If English dont want any Muslims in their country – they shouldnt have invaded India, Arabs and Africa.
To which Cynic aptly noted: Maybe if the Muslims had not invaded India, the Mediterranean region and North Africa and just stayed in what is Saudi Arabia there wouldn’t be a problem today.
In doing so, he highlighted the empty moral game at work here. Muslims are imperialists, and have been so from the earliest stages of the religion. Their indignation at Western imperialism is hollow, and their demand for justice is just a pose for their desire for revenge and domination… and Imram has barely bothered to dress up his desires in the demopathic clothing of human rights. For him, the West is just getting what it deserves. What goes around comes around.
If Americans hates Afghan’s Taliban – who asked you to be at Afghanistan in 80’s?
If Americans dont like Iraqis – who invited you there?
the problem with you ppl is simple – You invade and then you expect an “expected” response. My friends, there is no expected response from we Muslims.. if you invade us – we wont do anything.. but when you leave – we will be there before you! That’s the simple rule.. I mean – “come here sure: but you ant going back alone.”
So let me get this straight. The West kicks the stuffings out of Muslims on a battlefield, and then, in a combination of guilt and desire for cheap labor, opens its borders to Muslims, who then take advantage of it to take revenge. You’re proud of the Eurabian strategy.
And what the hell are you crying about America in danger from Islam Take Over? Last time I check, you Europeans invaded America, took it over from top to bottom. Its only natural that the history repeats itself. I mean if we need a permission for America, we will ask it from the Red-Indians.
Actually, if anyone had a “right” to blow up the WTC in Manhatten, it was the native Americans, who have a markedly different attitude towards the white invaders from the Muslims (anything to do with numbers and perceived strength?). But Muslims will not ask permission of the native Americans any more than of the Europeans to invade.
So the bottom line is – stop clamming the whole world !
Is that “claiming” the whole world? You mean, like Muslims do?
Notes oao (sarcastically, for the tone-challenged): folks, when muhammad came up with the quran which talks about the supremacy of the muslims, and their right to subjugate or kill all infidels, he was responding to the european and american conquests and the lack of justice in muslims not ruling the world. such a sharp insight into the future could be worthy only of the utmost prophet and the will of allah.
this ahmed is right on one subject: the west is doing it to itself — alowing and helping the ahmeds of the world to take them over.
E.G. tried sarcastic judo: This Ahmed is a cartoon of a Moslem. And offense to the whole Umma.
To which Ahmed responded:
@ E.G: I ve offended the whole Ummah? ha ha ah ha.. How did I do that?
To which E.G. responded, in character: Ahmed is a blasphemer. Ridicules the religion of Peace.
He shames the Moslems. Puts the Prophet’s beard in flames. This caricature brings Allah’s wrath upon all true believers.
To which Imran, under the new name I.A., responded:
Cherry-pick at work indeed! I completely agree with all sides of cherry picking. everyone is doing it. See with (cool heads), even on this blog. Out of all things a said in just 3 paragraphs: EC and oao picked few lines, twisted them and presented them in a dirty way and called me Blasphemer – just like Wilder did in his movie about Islam.
So, the matter is further proved.
And please, can we use TOEFL level English and not GRE/GMAT level. you guys are really promoting wikidictionary (if you what I mean) ;)
It seems Imran didn’t get E.G.’s sarcasm, but didn’t like it either (understandably). The comparison to Wilders “cherry-picking” is interesting: Wilders is picking the most disturbing elements of Islam, the ones that most impinge on “infidels.” To insist that outsiders bury these comments in a sea of other passages in the Qur’an, when it’s the Muslim preachers and jihadis that are actually doing the (very violent) cherry-picking, is an invitation to self-induced paralysis.
I.A.: why shouldn’t Wilders and the rest of us non-Muslims pay particular attention (i.e. cherry-pick) the most violent passages in the Qur’an, not because they’re there, but because they have been given special meaning (activated) by contemporary Muslims?
Then OptiPesi tried:
If the Arab/Muslim world was better than the “Western” world we live in, we would actually welcome the invasion to profit from the wisdom, science and liberties of your upbringing. But the problem, as you know, is that whenever the Arab/Muslim get their hand on anything that might be considered beneficial to the community, they tear it down (See the Gazan greenhouses left functional by the settlers) and I can never seem to remember the names of the great Arab institutions that gave us all these glorified Nobel laureats.
You get the drift, or do you??
The drift, of course, is that unlike communism, which in 1917 had never been tried, this particular Muslim millennial solution to the ills of the world is clearly a disaster for those forced to live under it. So not only do we have the example of other authoritarian millennial movements that have failed, to guide us in the 21st century, but the current candidate is clearly a catastrophe in waiting. So the only excuse of pushing it is simple libido dominandi.
Imram chose not to answer that one. But oao tried again, linking to yet one more example of the ruthless tyranny that assures “order” among Palestinians.
your “civilization” at work. wonder why people have no choice but try to control you?
Law and Order Palestinian-Arab Style
This got a response from Imram:
Hay Mr. “oao”, perhaps you live in a too serious world… its a blog not UN, CNN, BBC. stop being a violent protester throwing stones and burning tyres.
Half my message was further proved by you. I said the same thing – only a bit differently. Not to mention I used actual historic references where as you and this “Cynic” guy are just using Hard English as an argument.
I dont see any difference between You, Wilder an Any other Extremist – you directly went on and called me a Blasphemer. So just cool down. ok.
This is the first real hint of demopathy so far. Imran has virtually boasted of he and his fellow Muslims wanting to take over Europe, but Wilders and his supporters are extremists. Classic double-bind: I can be as extreme as I want; you, in your defense, may not.
Moreover – you said “when muhammad came up with the quran which talks about the supremacy of the muslims, and their right to subjugate or kill all infidels, he was responding to the european and american conquests and the lack of justice in muslims not ruling the world. such a sharp sight into the future could be worthy only of the utmost prophet and the will of allah.”
– Out of all the Islam, you could find this only ? is this how you wanna prove a point, just falling under the trap of Wilder – proving him correct that Islam preaches killings? You are the true Blasphemer. Not me! I didn’t say Kill, you specifically searched “kill” from all over Islam. Islam mentions peace, respect, love far many times more than any other religion.
And Mr Cynic, I am sorry I thought you are a European. So where are you from?
This is a strange response. Obviously this is not the only question (or passage) one could come up with to suggest that Islam preaches killing. Just the (very long) list of preachers who promote it makes the disturbing point.
I.M.: do you really want us to believe that in current Islam is not prone to violence against anyone the zealots define as either infidels or apostates (or Jahaliyya)? Wilders didn’t just cherry-pick his passages; he picked the ones of most concern to Westerners because they supply the fuel for the admittedly widespread use of terrorism that characterizes much public Muslim behavior these years. What’s wrong with that?
I.A. then gave a series of responses to previous posts:
Here, let me explain to settle your anger in the wrong direction: In my original passage,
1st paragraph was criticism on media and ppl believing what they hear on TV.
I didn’t understand it that way. I understood it to say that before TV there were lots of violence that went unrecorded. If it was to say what you just claimed above, does that mean that you, I.R., are willing to consider that you shouldn’t believe all the TV tells you about Israeli attacks on Muslim civilians?
Then I talked history and how we all have hurt each other previously
Then I criticized Wilder (which should be the actual FOCUS of this blog)
I’ve posted on Wilders, and remarked that, with a few minor changes, his film could be a recruiting film for global Jihad. What’s your response to that?
Finally I twisted fun, reality and modern history of american war together.
—– But apparently, a bunch of 90 year olds who just realized how to use a keyboard cant get it. You guys directly jumped on the ‘B’ word. Even I, greatest opposition of Wilder didnt jumped on the ‘B’ word for him which he deserves.
Why does he deserve the “B” word? Does that mean that all the preachers he cites are blasphemous?
and seriously, you guys dont have anything to say about Americans in Afghanistan and Iran? Who created the Talibans at the first place.. can anyone of you SERIOUS guys look up in the history and tell me? Who was the best friend of Americans before 1st Iraq Invasion? Who is now thinking of Lets-Invade-Iran while previously they themselves helped Iran against Iraq? Who is the All Mighty financer of Pakistan but secretly planning to one day lets invade it?
I have some problems here. First, you seem to think that the US “created the Taliban,” based presumably on the early support the US government gave the Taliban when they were fighting the Russians. This hardly means they “created” them; quite the contrary, it’s an independent Muslim (extremist) movement which the US was mistaken to encourage. But to say we “created them” is actually demeaning to Islam, since it suggests Muslims have no agency; they’re puppets of the infidels.
As for the rest of the paragraph, it seems to take bumbling US efforts to play “my enemy’s enemy is my friend” — which, when dealing with the Arab/Muslim world right now seems to be a mistake in almost every case — as some grand conspiracy.
I.R. then answered a series of responses by oao.
1. Cherry Picking… That’s all what you just did. both [E.G. and oao] of you.
2. [oao:] “when i see or hear you “moderate” muslims speak out and protest harshly against your extremists imams and jihadis, you will be taken seriously. as long as you are more concerned with us revealing the truth than with the killers on your side you have no hope of being taken seriously. you’re just ridiculous”
so if Moderate Muslims speak out against other Extreme Muslims – you will take us seriously, but when we speak out against Extreme terrorist such as the one who killed kids n women in Gaza recently – you wouldn’t take us seriously? Perhaps you have not seen the pictures of torture and Massacre from this recent Gaza killings. That’s why you wont understand the sentiments of those stone throwers.
the answers to these SERIOUS questions may be simply just one Country, but the cost n effects of these events will go long long way into the future.
Now oao and EC could blame me AGAIN for these events as much as they like to….. They dont speak for the whole world.
Everyone knows who is the real “B” word award inductee!
I guesss this answers my earlier question about believing everything you see on TV. In your book, what the TV tells you about Gaza is true as long as its about Israeli terror against Palestinian civilians. But what about the documented cases of Hamas terror against its own people, including torture? What about Hamas efforts to create a humanitarian crisis? What about Hamas seeking to victimize its own people? What about the possibility that the civilian casualties were much lower and the combatant casualties much higher? Or is that all Zionist propaganda?
Part of the problem here, and the reason your response to oao is inadequate is that he’s asking for you to self-criticize as a Muslim, to take responsibility for what your co-religionists do… especially if you want us to believe that Islam does preach respect for others and peace. Demonizing the Israelis is really easy. The sign of your good faith is your willingness to self-criticize. Why is is that the Israeli/Jewish side is full of self-critical people willing publicly to say “we are (at least in part) responsible”? Why is it that your side only uses this to say, “told you so” rather than do some self-criticizing yourself?
“fitna is just a collection of what your imams are saying. if indeed it is true that islam does not incite to killing, are those imams islamophobes?”
Fitna is not just a collection of this. it compares every speech with a sentence from Quran. Not to mention, it did a lot of cherry picking. you think all the imams in the world everyday preach what was shown in Fitna? No, they dont. 90% of them preach peace, respect and love for others.
Look, if there are 1.2 billion Muslims on the planet, that means, by your count, that 120 million Muslims are hearing Jihadi hatreds and genocidal violence preached everyday. That’s staggering, and, quite frankly, unacceptable. You can’t possibly expect us to be stupid enough to believe that if 90% of Muslims preach peace and respect (your claim), that that makes Islam okay for infidels.
And when it’s clear that the 90% of peaceful, respectful Muslims (among whom, I presume, you include yourself), have nothing special to say about these other 10%, but prefer to “cherry pick” Israeli war crimes as the object of their indignation, then it’s hardly what I’d call reassuring.
Do you really expect us to take you seriously? Or are you yanking our chain? ha ha ha?