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Heaven On Earth
Israel should recognize the Armenian Holocaust
From Abe Selig:
I think Israel should announce tomorrow that they have decided to recognize the Armenian Genocide. While a good friend of mine told me that (along with my idea that Israel point out the continued illegal occupation of Northern Cyprus, where the boats set out from) were the two “sacred cows” of the Turkish elite still on our side and quite opposed to the current Islamist government, I asked him what good this elite was, if things like Gaza flotillas and 10,000 raving Turks demanding Israeli blood have become the norm in Istanbul.
A lot of good that will do.
Israel should have done it a long time ago.
Yes, let’s see the face of that major hypocrite Erdogan.
There is always a day after tomorrow. Turkey still has a small chance to become secular again.
There is no need to act that quickly. This could be seen as exploiting historical genocides. I guess this would be seen counterproductive in Germany, Austria and other countries too.
There is absolutely no need to support Noam Finkelstein’s thesis.
Sorry, very bad idea.
I side with obsy.
(never mind some minor points on which we may diverge)
Ok, no genocide recognition. But what about sending an Israeli flotilla (cute word, isn’t it?) to cyprus in protest for the savage turkish occupation. Ships non-tripulated, except for free-first class to Chomsky, Finkelstein at al.
There is absolutely no need to support Noam Finkelstein’s thesis.
But certainly no need to be hypocritical either, particularly on the subject of genocide.
Good questions. Anybody doubt major failure here?
Why was Israeli raider force unprepared for violent resistance?
DEBKAfile Exclusive Analysis May 31, 2010, 11:33 PM (GMT+02:00)
More questions than answers came from the IDF video shots of the violent reception for Israeli naval commandos when they raided the Turkish ship early Monday, May 31 to prevent the pro-Palestinian flotilla from reaching Gaza Port and breaking the Israeli blockade on the Hamas-ruled territory.
Prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, who cancelled his trip to the United States and is flying straight home from Canada, will have to fill in the gaps left by his official spokesmen.
Released finally 12 hours after the event, the IDF shots failed to explain the big mystery of how soldiers armed with paint balls and pistols managed to kill 9 pro-Palestinian activists (Ankara claims 15 Turkish dead) and injure at least 34 aboard the Turkish Marmora.
Together with six injured soldiers – two in critical condition – the wounded activists are being treated in Israeli hospitals.
Israel’s chief of staff Lt. Gen. Gaby Ashkenazi, and Navy commander, Maj. Gen. Eliezer Marom, reported that a fierce clash developed aboard the ship as the soldiers dropped on deck from helicopters and were mobbed by passengers. The activists fired pistols, but it is not clear if the guns were in the peace activists’ luggage or snatched from the soldiers.
Neither is it clear how civilian protesters were able to disarm elite fighters of the Navy’s Shayetet 6 unit.
The soldiers performed their mission of preventing the flotilla from docking in Gaza Port and opening the door to large-scale weapons deliveries – but at what cost?
Surely the operation’s planners must have taken into account that the 600 mixed nationals aboard the Turkish vessel, the hard core of international Palestinian agitprop against Israel, would not receive the soldiers with flowers and white flags, any more than the demonstrators at Iblin and Naalin hand out to the Israeli Border Police breaking up their riots week after week.
The Border Police was bettered qualified to handle themselves against the arsenal the activists aboard the Turkish vessel used against the navy men, of firebombs, stun grenades, broken glass, slingshot, iron bars, axes and knives – and with far less risk of loss of life.
Also underestimated was the number of troops needed to commandeer the Turkish ship, control the wheelhouse and turn it round to Ashdod port. Each commando who shinnied down the ladder from a helicopter was besieged and separated from the unit, then beaten, stabbed and assaulted with flying objects. Some were pushed down into the hold and stripped of their anti-flak vests first. The soldiers reported they barely escaped lynching or possibly being taken hostage.
Any Israeli police officer dealing with Palestinian rioters knows that the first rule is never to get separated from the main force. The Shayatet 6 elite troops lacked this experience.
This error was compounded by the planners seriously underestimating expected resistance and sending the men in armed only with paintballs and pistols with orders to shoot only if their lives were at risk. They did open fire, but only after half a dozen of their number were badly hurt.
The entire episode bespeaks faulty intelligence on what was going on aboard the six vessels bound for Gaza, although the information was available from daily live broadcasts and easy access to visitors.
And another question: The IDF is famous for its innovative electronic warfare capabilities. So why were the signals and images coming from the convoy not jammed as promised and allowed to reach world TV screens hours before the authorities responsible for Israeli information woke up?
And finally, why did the interception take place 80 miles out to sea in international waters, thereby fueling the complaint that Israel broke international law? The blockade zone is 20 nautical miles deep from Gaza. An Israeli raid at that limit would have been easier to justify.
I read somewhere that Frankenstein was in fact on one of the ships. Can anyone corroborate that?
On the point of Turkey, I’m really not sure what to do. I DO think we ought to sever ties with it so long as it’s ruled by the AKP gang. It appears to me that when the secularists regain back their power, the relations would probably be reestablished again. If, OTH, the Islamist grip over Turkey is not let lose, be it because of public support or the silent coup Barry Rubin predicts, then good riddance.
As per the Armenian Genocide, it is my position that Israel’s reluctance to recognize it as such is a grave moral stain on a country who, of all places, should know better than that. Sometimes a moral truth should be above strategical considerations.
I highly recommend that you all read “Banality if Denial” by Yair Auron, which exposes the Israeli hypocrisy in broad daylight.
incognito #6
You desperately need a bit of diplomacy training at some Intl. institute :-/
Invitation extended to sshender.
MUST READ FROM SPENGLER:
http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/spengler/2010/05/31/the-political-equivalent-of-a-sociopath-blows-up-the-middle-east/
MUST READ FROM CAROLINE GLICK, who seems to agree with my assesment of utter incompetence of Israeli leadership:
In the space of four days, Israel has suffered two massive defeats. A straight line runs between the anti-Israel resolution passed last Friday at the UN’s Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty Review Conference and the Hamas flotilla. And in both cases, Israeli officials voiced “surprise,” at these defeats.
Given the months-long build-up to the NPT review conference, and the weeks-long build-up to the Turkish-Hamas flotilla, that surprise cannot be attributed to a lack of information.
What it points to rather is a cognitive failure of Israel’s leaders – from Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu down – to understand the nature of the war being waged against us. And it is this fundamental failure of cognition that has landed six soldiers in the hospital, Israel’s international reputation in tatters and Israeli spokesmen – from Netanyahu down – searching for a way to describe a reality they do not understand and explain how they will cope with challenges that confound them.
And now, in the aftermath of the lethal takeover of the flotilla, Israel’s leaders stammer. Rather than demand an apology from the Turkish government for its support for these terrorists, Defense Minister Ehud Barak called his Turkish counterpart to talk over what happened. Rather than demand restitution for the terrorist assault against Israeli troops, Israel has defended its troops’ moral training in non-violent crowd control.
These efforts are worse than worthless. They make Israel appear whiny rather than indignant. And more depressingly, they expose a dangerous lack of basic comprehension about what has just occurred and a concomitant inability to prepare for what will most certainly follow.
Israel is the target of a massive information war. For Israel to win this war it needs to counter its enemies’ lies with the truth.
In fact, decent Turks do recognize, more or less, the armenian genocide! Remember when this journalist, Hrant Dink was assassinated in 2007? he was the editor-in-chief of the bilingual armenian-turkish newspaper, Agos.
200 000 mourners marched at his funeral, chanting “we are all armenians” and “we are all Hrant Dink”.
Not every turkish citizen is a fascist partisan of the Grey Wolves of Anatolia or a fanatic member of a radical islamist sect.
I am all for Israel declaring the recognition of the Armenian genocide, but let them first evacuate the 10 000 jews or so who still live there. The turkish Jews are useful to Turkey in that they help with non-recognition of the Armenian genocide. Should this political choice be dropped by Israel, the Jews from Turkey could be very easily disposed of by Turkey, since they would have stopped being useful.
Turkish history (old and new) has shown that human life has a low price, over there…
David Hazony:
I spoke this morning with a senior producer for one of the major network news divisions in the United States. “This morning, I received a well-phrased press release from the office of [PA spokesman] Saeb Erekat,” he told me. “I got it at 4:36 a.m. It was obviously prepared in advance. Now it’s 11 a.m., and I still have got nothing from the Israeli government.” Predictably, that news release, which was sent out to key journalists around the Western world, was full of half-truths (like the assertion that the passengers on the ship were “unarmed civilian activists” who were “savagely attacked” by the IDF), but the point is that for all of Israel’s rapid response, it was wildly outmaneuvered by the Palestinian media commandos. As CNN pointed out, the pro-Palestinian activists were live-streaming the event and sending messages via Twitter throughout. “Despite everything they’ve been through,” he continued, “the Israelis seem to have been taken utterly by surprise. It’s always react, react, react — never proactive.”
UPDATE: A good friend of mine is a nurse who was on duty in the emergency room at a Jerusalem hospital when some of the injured “activists” were brought in. She tells me that many of them are wearing camouflage. “Not sure they were official Turkish army clothes,” she says, “but they weren’t civilian dress, that’s for sure.”
Sorry incognito,
Glick is not writing about the utter incompetence of Israeli leadership. She deplores their failure to realise and effectively respond to a massive information war (I’d say disinformation).
Although she’s not wrong, in all fairness it’s hard to put the blame on the (present) governing echelons only. That’s, inter alia, a problem of democracy: a real one does not and should not control all information.
As much as I agree that in terms of “information war” Israel should do better, I disagree about abandoning all diplomatic reason/efforts (incl. realpolitik) for Truth’ sake hic et nunc. As Spengler makes plain, not everything in the current situation is Israel’s fault/responsibility.
Utter failure to be cognitive of the war against Israel and absorbing defeat after defeat and remaining “surprised” and initiating operations incapable of winning and endangering lives of soldiers for no good reason is not just incompetence, but RANK incompetence.
And when the price to be paid will follow, perhaps you will stop being lenient of that band of nobodies. Include the Lebanon wars, Gaza wars, Oslo, etc. Whoever does not see the idiocy of the Israeli leadership is in full denial.
I did not say ONLY the elite is responsible, and certainly not everything is Israel’s responsibility. But it is obvious that besides Israel’s enemies, the greatest share of responsibility for even reaching the point of today is Israel’s leadership. There isn’t any.
I replied but the filters at it.
Egyptian “Expert in International Law” Recommends Sending Weapons to Gaza in Humanitarian Aid Convoys
[...] for Israel to recognize that Turkey is not its friend and to join the West in condemning Turkish complicity in the Armenian genocide. Long [...]
That’s a stupid idea.
Just like the Israeli official who some months ago forced a Turkish official to sit at a lower level than him. Literally.
It appears to me that when the secularists regain back their power, the relations would probably be reestablished again
Turkey is gone. Get out of the denial. It’s that kind of denial that is bringing Israel nothing but defeats. People just can’t accept all the enemeies the west has.
from a friend:
I think that I qualify as a person who has been warning long and seriously about the Turkish regime in power now. Having said that, let me point out that a Turkish friend who is very pro-Israel told me (and his analogy is very meaningful now!) that the problem with Turkey is the captain and crew, not the passengers who have been kidnapped. Israel should do nothing to show antagonism toward the Turkish people and republic as a whole while sparing no effort to ridicule the current regime.
For the first time, Turkey has a real opposition and polls show that it could beat the Islamist government. Whatever strategy is adopted should be to hurt the incumbents and help the opposition. The opposition should not be idealized in terms of their attitude toward Israel but their coming into power would be closer to what we had before things started to fall apart with this Islamist regime.
The main theme should be: This government is breaking with the proud traditions of the Turkish republic, making enemies unnecessarily and making Turkey look bad to the world. This includes their virtual alliance with Iran and their recent attempt to stop increased sanctions and their alliance with terrorists like Hamas and Hizballah.
Many people in Turkey are horrified at what the regime is doing and the economic situation has turned bad making them angrier. We should also remember that the well-being of around 15,000 Turkish Jews is involved, too.
Lashing out against Turkey as a whole is a mistake. We might be able to win this battle though it is going to take next year’s election to see..
from Eliyahu
It should be done gradually. Have historians debate it. Have the Armenian community in Israel express their viewpoint. Give them time on Reshet B and galey Tsahal. Have certain MKs bring it up. Don’t forget that some historians here oppose recognition of the AG. After all, if Obama is against it, then Israel should be too, at least in order to stay in step with obama.
Give it a strong Zionist background by quoting the stories of Sarah Aaronsohn and Eitan Belkind as eye witnesses of the massacres, etc. Did you know that Aaron Aaronsohn wrote a memorandum for the UK govt called Pro Armenia?? This memo was circulated among selected Brit officials and officers. The NILI group gave the British mucho info on the Armenian genocide based on Sarah, Belkind and others’ eye witness observation of the genocide. Aaron offered political advice to the Armenian delegation to the Versailles Conf.
There is plenty of documentation on this that also puts people like Aaronsohn in a good light, on the side of the angels, so to speak. It would be a great lesson in history for our youth.
The 1922 Smyrna Affair should also be discussed. The Greeks in Smyrna –today Izmir– were almost literally driven into the sea. The Armenians in Smyrna were not so lucky. The Armenians were slaughtered in 1922. The Western powers AND the Communist USSR collaborated with Ataturk, who was not then “secular.” He was still called a ghazi [Muslim warrior against kufar] at that time.
Israel should do nothing to show antagonism toward the Turkish people and republic as a whole while sparing no effort to ridicule the current regime.
I would agree with qualifications. The islamists in Turkey are the most vociferous and aggressive and the secularists are no match for them. The only hope for secularism was the army and it has collapsed like butter in heat, and they had the weapons. And it was the west who demanded it, the idiots.
The reality is that the west does the opposite of the friend’s advice. Barak has already called the AKP govt to kiss ass. Israel is ridiculizing itself not Erdogan.
Sounds to me the same denial about Iran is also about Turkey. The Islamists are now in the open and they will not permit any opposition at any cost.
The art of the kiss-world’s-ass platitude:
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0510/Another_statement_on_Israel.html
Seems like I’m not alone in the denial and failure argument:
http://volokh.com/2010/05/31/pollak-on-uniquely-israeli-stupidity/
Israel and Jewish institutions in general shoud recognize the Armenian genocide. Several countries did that and, neither when governed by secularists nor when governed by Islamists, did Turkey sever relations with them.
Secularists won’t regain Turkey’s government anytime soon and, if they do, the Armenian genocide will be the least of their problems. Besides, recognizing Ottoman crimes should be a good test for the sincerity of real Turkish democrats.
Yes, I agree with those who state that much is not under Israeli control, so Israel cannot be blamed for most of what happens. But try to explain this to the hostile media. Being weaker than the opponents shouldn’t be an excuse for also being less intelligent than them. If Israel is both weaker and acts less than brilliantly, it will be vanquished and destroyed, its population will be put to the sword.
For over 20 years I cannot remember one single occasion when Israel surprised or amazed me, one single occasion when its leadership has been able to think outside the box. I know it’s unfair to always ask the Jews to be cleverer and cleverer, but the other only option is to give up their country, convert to Islam and hope that the Muslims and the rest of the world will be merciful (they won’t).
If we cannot trust Israel to act brilliantly when confronted with such a minor task as stopping the flotilla, how can we expect it to do it right when it comes to Iran? If Israel’s military and government are so incompetent, so unimaginative, maybe the best they could do would be to nuke Teheran, Damascus and to destroy south Lebanon and Gaza right now, starting Armagedon in Israel’s terms as soon as possible rather than having to give up all its nukes unused in exchange for Obama’s hope and change.
If we cannot trust Israel to act brilliantly when confronted with such a minor task as stopping the flotilla, how can we expect it to do it right when it comes to Iran?
Forget brilliantly, they can’t even act intelligently anymore. People keep hoping for the old Israel but it’s long gone.
If Israel’s military and government are so incompetent, so unimaginative, maybe the best they could do would be to nuke Teheran, Damascus and to destroy south Lebanon and Gaza right now, starting Armagedon in Israel’s terms as soon as possible rather than having to give up all its nukes unused in exchange for Obama’s hope and change.
Alas, they won’t do that either. The fact is they dk what to do. The minute they did Oslo they self-destructed. They essentially admitted to the world that Israel is guilty and to blame and they have no defense now.
Eliyahu,
Inconsequential. Expressive rather than instrumental activity.
Remember Halutz selling his stock while he conducted a war via the airforce? Or where Barak lives? Have you followed the Olmert saga and the Holyland scandal?
The writing has been on the wall for a long time. If the US has collapsed under such elite, won’t Israel in its circumtstances?
Let’s be serious.
Turkey is gone. Get out of the denial. It’s that kind of denial that is bringing Israel nothing but defeats. People just can’t accept all the enemeies the west has.
Incog, yes, Turkey is gone, at least that modernizing, secular Turkey that made good relations with Israel possible. But why can’t you accept, and stop denying, that the Islamists are not enemies of the West, of America, at least not of the very upper crusty policymakers and shapers. It was Giscard d’Estaing, a “conservative, right-winger” who multiplied the Muslim-Arab population in France. It was the Bush & Obama administrations that allowed Erdogan to take power in Turkey [Bush] despite his party only winning ca. 35% of the vote in the elections, and then flattered Erdogan, encouraged his Israelophobia, helped him deny the Armenian genocide [Bush & Obama], etc.
The British and the Bolsheviks had a pro-Muslim policy 90 years ago. Yes, Brits and Bolshies together. They both supported Ataturk, helping him in the Greek-Turkish War of 1920-1922. Ships of the major Western powers of the time, the former WW I allies, sat in the Smyrna harbor in 1922 while the expulsion of Greeks & massacre of Armenians proceeded without real interference.
The Muslims/Islamists may be the enemies of the West as an abstract ideal of civilization. But in practice, the govts of the West have been pro-Muslim for years. The UK is the worst of course. The EU is bad too and the USA has long followed the British lead.
See link:
http://ziontruth.blogspot.com/2005/10/bolsheviks-for-jihad-genocide-stalins.html
Incog,
Why do you belittle expressive behavior as if it were inconsequential?
But why can’t you accept, and stop denying, that the Islamists are not enemies of the West, of America, at least not of the very upper crusty policymakers and shapers.
If you believe that then you don’t understand what islamism means. They can be tolerated or used as useful idiots, but that’s at the most.
It was Giscard d’Estaing, a “conservative, right-winger” who multiplied the Muslim-Arab population in France. It was the Bush & Obama administrations that allowed Erdogan to take power in Turkey [Bush] despite his party only winning ca. 35% of the vote in the elections, and then flattered Erdogan, encouraged his Israelophobia, helped him deny the Armenian genocide [Bush & Obama], etc.
Yes, but that does not mean the Islamists are not against them. It only means precisely that they are useful idiots and they delude themselves that, like you say, islamists won’t be against them if they do.
The Muslims/Islamists may be the enemies of the West as an abstract ideal of civilization. But in practice, the govts of the West have been pro-Muslim for years. The UK is the worst of course. The EU is bad too and the USA has long followed the British lead.
Your logic is flawed: the latter part does not imply the former part.
Why do you belittle expressive behavior as if it were inconsequential?
A matter of definition: instrumental means doing it to achieve a purpose, expressive means to express oneself as the purpose.
I belittle neither, only confusing the two.
[...] Augean Stables » Israel should recognize the Armenian Holocaust [...]
incognito wrote,
“They essentially admitted to the world that Israel is guilty and to blame and they have no defense now.”
Rather, what is accurate is that Israelis falsely confessed to fictitious crimes that the racist intendedly genocidal murderous attackers of the Jewish people accused them of. (As have psychologically besieged traumatized Jewish people *always* done throughout the past several thousand years, in order to try to not be attacked and hated and in order to try to be loved and accepted.)
I know that “falsely confessed” is what incognito meant by writing “admitted” but I think that it is important to communicate accurately – without subtly intendedly-self-harming, exasperated, sarcasm – I think that it is important to communicate accurately – without sarcasm – even when exasperated.
Jewish Israelis and Jewish people who defend the Jewish people – the Jewish people who defend the country of the Jewish people – need to be mindful and discerning, and need to have confidence in themselves, and need to see the lying scoundrels for what the lying scoundrels are, and need to overcome the liars with the truth.
The belief, by I think, a large majority of people in the world, in the false narrative about the past 90-year history of the situation is what the root problem is.
The war is a war of ideas – a war of communication – a war of thoughts – a war of views.
The world runs on consensus.
Consensus is determined by and attained by communication.
Clarifying correction:
Rather, what is accurate is that Israeli Jewish people falsely confessed to fictitious crimes that the racist intendedly genocidal murderous attackers of the Israeli Jewish people accused the Israeli Jewish people of.
The second half of my previous comment is not addressed to incognito, who I think communicates well, and with whose views, by whom have been expressed, I agree, in general, and who I do not know whether is Jewish or not.
The second half of my previous comment is addressed to Jewish people about whom, and to whom, I wrote in the second half of my comment.
nelson: “If we cannot trust Israel to act brilliantly when confronted with such a minor task as stopping the flotilla, how can we expect it to do it right when it comes to Iran?”
Because it thinks more about Iran than about a minor task as the flotilla. At least I hope so.
Israel should do nothing to show antagonism toward the Turkish people and republic as a whole while sparing no effort to ridicule the current regime.
The best way for Israel to ridicule the current regime is to call it a friend. It’s probably the last thing Erdogan wants. A nice handshake with Peres in front of an Israeli flag won’t be the best election campaign imaginable for him.
A warning:
Israel should prepare for Iranian (Hamas/Hezbollah) aggression in the wake of 2011′s Turkish election.
Just to add something to the Armenian debate:
Some years ago an Armenian asked my why it was that when it came to the massacre the Jews always had an excuse for not confronting Turkey with it but with regard to the Holocaust there was no excuse in the world powerful enough to let the Germans free?
All those Liberal American Jews who cry out against Israeli behaviour; where are they on the crimes committed by the Turks against Armenians, and Kurds.
How many Kurdish villages did they raze in their war against them? How many women and children did they kill?
Cynic wrote
“Some years ago an Armenian asked my why it was that when it came to the massacre the Jews always had an excuse for not confronting Turkey with it but with regard to the Holocaust there was no excuse in the world powerful enough to let the Germans free? ”
Excellent point.
Cynic also wrote,
“All those Liberal American Jews who cry out against Israeli behaviour; where are they on the crimes committed by the Turks against Armenians, and Kurds.
How many Kurdish villages did they raze in their war against them? How many women and children did they kill?”
In this case Jewish people believe lies that vilify Jewish people, and in this case if the lies that Liberal American Jews believe were true I think that what American Liberal Jews are doing would be okay , in the general sense of the practice of it (not in the perverse malicious egocentric fear-based way that Liberal American Jews are doing it) – I think that it would be a case of being noble and of not throwing stones in glass houses and of not calling the kettle black. However what American Liberal Jews are doing is not only joining, but *leading*, a huge global attack on Jewish people who are being falsely accused, initially by people who have been waging a racist murderous intendedly genocidal war against those Jewish people, and now by the whole world, of the equivalent of murdering Christian European children and using their blood baking in matzos.
The most influential propagator of the Christian European “Blood Libel” against the Jewish people, was Theobald of Cambridge, an ethnically Jewish convert to Christianity who, while accompanying, and being presented by, Thomas of Monmoth, an English Christian cleric who initiated the “Blood Libel” in Norwich England, falsely professed that the lies were true.
Lies vilifying Jewish people, and the methodology of the non-Jewish people who invent and who are the initiators of the propagation of lies that vilify Jewish people, and the fact of the always complicity of some, and, in the present time, many, Jewish people in propagating lies that vilify Jewish people, is, and has always been, obscene and perverse. It is evil. It is the most evil set of phenomena that has ever existed.
Overcome the liars with the truth.
Correction:
I wrote
“cynic wrote
‘Some years ago an Armenian asked my why it was that when it came to the massacre the Jews always had an excuse for not confronting Turkey with it but with regard to the Holocaust there was no excuse in the world powerful enough to let the Germans free?’
Excellent point.”
I misread. I, in fact, disagree. Jewish people *have* and profoundly, in an unprecedented way, *WRONGLY*, “let the Germans free”. Forgiveness is good, however, profoundly and subtl, and servilely and emotionally-needily avoiding offending and holding delusional wishfully thinks views about nature of a people who felt, and feel, not remorse nor guilt nor shame, for their people having mass-murdered, in cold hatred, several million of ones people, and who, in most cases, feel no compassion for the descendants of the people who their parents and grandparents directly and indirectly mass-murdered, but who feel *humiliation* for their people being known for having, in cold hatred, mass-murdered several million of one’s people, and who willfully believe and propagate lies that vilify the descendants of the people who their parents and grand parents mass-murdered, and whose corporations and government are the primary supporter and enablers of people who are trying to commit mass-murderous genocide against the descendants of the people who their parents and grandparents mass-murdered, is not good. It is folly. It is unmindful and undiscerning. It is good to be mindful and to discern and to understand and to, what I strive to do but what I often do not do, which is to be aware of essential things, including the factors of things – to be aware of the nature of things – and to, as a result, feel no anger and feel no animosity toward anyone.
My speech and language is, in turns, unbeneficial and beneficial. I am imperfect. I am afflicted by suffering and I am in a very difficault situation. I hope that all those who may be offended by my unbeneficial language may understand how I feel and may understand the situation that I am in and may forgive me, and may be not harmed by my unbeneficial harmful speech and language.
Daniel,
I see two problems:
1. Often it is hard to see what is true and what is not.
2. Currently, the “truth” is seen as just one among many equal opinions. Those who strongly defend the truth are often seen merely as impolite, because they can’t respect the equality of the opinions of others.
It is a sick world we’re living in.
But I don’t want to discourage you.
I hope that my unbeneficial and harmful language did not cause unbenefical and harmful thoughts and feelings to arise in the minds of Jewish people, and I am very sorry if my unbeneficial and harmful language caused unbeneficial and harmful thoughts and feelings to arise in the minds of Jewish people, and I hope that Jewish people may forgive me, and may be not harmed by my unbeneficial and harmful speech and language.
obsy,
Thank you for your understanding and compassion.
Daniel,
No forgiveness!
‘Cause there’s no harm ;-)
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=turkey-launches-a-long-time-diplomatic-war-against-israel-2010-06-01
Lies over lies from Erdogan ― as usual.
Lies over lies from Erdogan ― as usual.
Not just lies, but rank hypocrisy. We saw how he reacted when the US wanted to take a stand on the Armenian holocaust.
Suggestion: let’s see Erdogan’s reactions to arguing that treatment of the kurds and his sending the flotilla were criminal and not in the interest of turkish people and that his govt should be kicked out.
Would you hazzard a bet?
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E.G.,
Thank you. :-)
Richard,
Regarding the Armenian genocide, I like your style. A gradual and subtle approach would be best. And it would be the right thing to do.
Regarding the current scary mess in Turkey, I have been reading that the AKP is losing power.
Isn’t this when things get dangerous? When demagogues lose power, they go crazy. Do you think Erdogan will pull some stunt to keep his hands on power? (worst case scenario)
Also, if he should lose power in peaceful elections (best case scenario) he’ll still be a factor. What do you think he’ll do?
if i understand you correctly, like Hamas in Gazastan, Erdogan [thinks he] can’t afford an election he’ll lose, so he’ll resort to any subterfuge. on the other hand, if he were smart, he’d realize what a powerful player he’d be as the opposition.
i don’t know the scene in Turkey well enough to say. i’d certainly say that the intoxication of playing hero to the arab world can lead to any number of foolish miscalculations. it’s really up to the turkish people: are they interested in European Union or in Global Jihad. Erdogan’s made his choice; will the Turks follow suit?
My guess is that they’ll have to suffer considerably more from this policy before they figure out what a catastrophe this course is. Maybe they have an active unofficial information system so that people articulating these warnings have already convinced many voters that this is not wise; but if so, it would be a wonderful surprise.
Regarding the current scary mess in Turkey, I have been reading that the AKP is losing power.
That’s probably western illusions. In fact, the reason Erdogan went anti-Israel is precisely to ensure that he won’t lose power. You can go wrong with hatred of Israel.
AKP won’t permit loss of power. But even if they lose it, Turkey will never be what it was. AKP has instilled too much Islam into the system for anybody to put the cat back in the sack.
I meant “you CAN’T go wrong”.
“That’s probably western illusions.”
No, I am citing election returns. The AKP’s share of power went down in 2009 from 2007.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Turkey
More from Barry Rubin, who can hardly be called an appeaser:
“Lately for the first time, the AK government began to run into domestic problems. The poor status of the economy, the growing discontent of many Turks with creeping Islamism in the society, and the election — for the first time — of a popular leader for the opposition party began to give hope that next year’s elections might bring down the regime. Indeed, polls showed the AK sinking into or very close to second place. With the army neutered, elections are the only hope of getting Turkey off the road to Islamism.”
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/its-not-about-the-flotilla-turkey-changed-sides-years-ago/?singlepage=true
No, I am citing election returns. The AKP’s share of power went down in 2009 from 2007.
Yes, but:
Have you observed the anti-American/Israel frenzy in Turkey? Do you really believe that an AKP loss will change that? In fact, islam was always there and it was inhibited/hid by force and only by the high level officers; everything under them in the army is islamist. Read analyses being published.
The AKP castrated the high command, press and western-oriented business and infiltrated the state institutions. Now he has released the islamic jinni and I don’t see anybody putting it back. In fact, he has come on top by his anti-US/Israel attacks. Turkey is lost and only idiots like Obama don’t get it.
Incognito:
You seem to like to argue for the sake of arguing. I’m not going to engage.
I am pointing out that the AK Party may be losing electoral popularity. I said, and I’ll repeat in caps THAT WHEN PARTIES LOSE POWER THEY BECOME MORE DANGEROUS. That’s what is happening here.
OK? Get it?
I’m not denying the Islamist threat. It’s pretty obvious from my comments that I think it’s very real.
In fact I’m not interested in what you have to say, I’m interested in whether Richard wants to respond to my comments. If he doesn’t I’ll stop commenting.
I cannot fathom the moral justification a Jew could offer in defense of not recognizing the Armenian Genocide. Do you not fear the God you claim to know? You have been disgraced for using the massacre of 1.5mm+ people as a mere political fodder while expecting sympathy for your genocide. What? You say your number of dead are greater? Foolish you are to reason about this with such impunity. Turkey was never your friend or a real ally. They cow-tailed because after their crime against the Armenian people they knew the consequence if they didn’t. Their arrogant and blood-thirsty descendants remain and are far worse of a threat to both Jew and Christian than Germany. Mark my words, when given the opportunity, the 70mm+ Turks will restore the Ottoman-like Calephete to counter the EU that will include Muslim only states. This will mark then beginning of the what will surely be the greatest attack against Israel and Jews in their history – and ONLY their REDEEMER MESHIACH will be able to save.
Wait – Watch – See
You seem to like to argue for the sake of arguing. I’m not going to engage.
You seem to fail to understand my response.
rl:
“if i understand you correctly, like Hamas in Gazastan, Erdogan [thinks he] can’t afford an election he’ll lose, so he’ll resort to any subterfuge. on the other hand, if he were smart, he’d realize what a powerful player he’d be as the opposition.”
No, I doubt he wants to lose. No politician ever wants to lose (except maybe McCain in 2008!), in any case, it’s a mistake to boil this down to Erdogan’s personality.
Don’t complicate what I’m saying which is simply: when a party of fanatics and fanaticism starts losing, that’s when they start going really crazy and pulling electioneering circus maximus stunts. This is all very bread and roses. Erdogan benefits from baiting Israel and playing Caliph. Who or what is to stop him?
“i’d certainly say that the intoxication of playing hero to the arab world can lead to any number of foolish miscalculations. ”
Yes but they have little access to information. Their press is really bad and much internet access is blocked. And even that access is restricted to a few. It’s not truly a free society.
“it’s really up to the turkish people: are they interested in European Union or in Global Jihad.”
What do you mean? The Europeans are not letting them in. This doesn’t excuse the move towards Islamism, but the fact is that Europe will never let 80 million Muslims join the European union.
but the fact is that Europe will never let 80 million Muslims join the European union.
But they let them drip-drip in individually. Just ask Germany how Erdogan went there and told the turks not to assimilate.
The muslim immigration into Europe is much more consequential than admitting them into EU.
Besides what is EU? Nothing really.