Quintessence of the Useful Infidel: Spanish Gay Pride Parade bans Israeli Delegation

An article at Ynet illuminates the combination of insanity and cowardice that now animates much of the Western “left.” The largest Gay Pride parade in the world disinvited the Israeli contingent because of pressure from increasingly violent anti-Israel demonstrators in Spain, especially since the Flotilla Fadiha.

On the one hand, we have Israel, the only country in the Middle East where Gay Pride Parades occur, the only country which, despite being labeled a theocracy run by a bunch of rabbis who think homosexuality is an abomination, even allows Gay Pride parades in the holy city of Jerusalem, right in the face of the religious zealots, without violence.

On the other, we have the Palestinians and other Arab and Muslim countries, where homosexuality is repressed harshly, where killing a homosexual son is a widely approved form of honor-killing, where zealots roam unopposed by governments and kill homosexuals, where homosexuals flee to Israel for asylum, to hang out in the free atmosphere of cities like Tel Aviv.

And in between, we have progressive, peace-loving, free-spirited, rather flamboyant Western homosexuals, who side with the Arab homophobes. Why? It’s hard to gauge the part that’s idiocy (Palestinians are a progressive cause) and the part that’s cowardice (we’re afraid of security problems). But it sure does add up to produce yet another fine example of the useful infidel.

Spanish pride parade doesn’t want Israelis
Sources say pro-Palestinian groups led Madrid to cancel invitation extended to LGBT delegation
Yoav Zitun
Published: 06.08.10, 00:44 / Israel News

Organizers of Madrid’s pride parade, scheduled for the beginning of next month, have announced that they are cancelling the invitation of Israeli representatives slated to appear there, Ynet learned Monday.

The Israeli delegation, made up of members of the LGBT association and the Foreign Ministry, was scheduled to run an Israeli “bus” in the parade, for the first time since its establishment.

But the delegation has recently received hints from Spain that their arrival may cause anger among local pro-Palestinian groups, which may require excess security and, more importantly, cause a lot of embarrassment.

And we don’t want to be embarrassed when we’re being proud, do we?

The organizers’ fears peaked with the emergence of anti-Israel protests following the IDF raid on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla, and on Monday they cited lack of security for the cancellation. Sources close to the affair say the decision was also affected by a number of anti-Israeli groups.

The Madrid Pride Parade is considered one of the largest in the world, and boasts over a million marchers each year. The past few weeks have seen Israel’s gay and lesbian community in intense preparations for the event, including choosing its representatives.

I guess it’s okay to embarrass them.

Community reps expressed their deep disappointment by Madrid’s decision. Chairman of the LGBT Union in Israel, Mike Hamel told Ynet, “We regret the fact that the pride organizations in Madrid have decided to focus on issues that have nothing to do with the community. The Union was invited as a non-political organization. This is a missed opportunity for dialogue.”

And that’s precisely what the anti-Zionist groups with their violent objections want to do. This is more of the Arab/Muslim street that has taken hold in Europe and the rest of the Western world since 2000.

Foreign Ministry official Yossi Levy said, “As far as we know, the Spanish organizers of the parade canceled Israel’s participation for so-called security concerns. In any case, this is an ugly scandal that turns the pride parade into a shame parade.

Not that that kind of language will work with a group as shameless as they are proud.

Israel is the only country in the Middle East that holds pride parades, hangs pride flags on the streets and respects the gay and lesbian community’s rights. The primitive politicization and the blatant capitulation to the terror and violence of anti-Israeli elements go against the Pride Parade’s principle of preventing discrimination,” he added.

“Those who decided to prevent Tel Aviv’s representatives from participating are dragging the Pride Parade into the hallways of the anti-Israeli inquisition, instead of marching on the path of tolerance and dialogue.”

181 Responses to Quintessence of the Useful Infidel: Spanish Gay Pride Parade bans Israeli Delegation

  1. incognito says:

    It’s hard to gauge the part that’s idiocy (Palestinians are a progressive cause) and the part that’s cowardice (we’re afraid of security problems). But it sure does add up to produce yet another fine example of the useful infidel.

    And is another indicator of collapse.

  2. [...] more here:  Augean Stables » Quintessence of the Useful Infidel: Spanish Gay … AKPC_IDS += “9655,”;Popularity: unranked [...]

  3. entresminutos says:

    You have missed the words of Miguel Ángel González, president of one of the organizations, refered to the israeli Gay association :

    “The whant to pose as victims when they are the executioners. We havent vetoed them, they have vetoed themselves with the attitude of their goverment”

    http://www.abc.es/agencias/noticia.asp?noticia=412334

    He says they are doing this in solidarity with the human rigths defenders that were murdered in the boat.

    Spain is one of the most antisemitic countrys in Europe
    rigth now. I can tell, I’m spanish.

  4. nhd says:

    I appreciate your righteous indignation, but I think the organizers of this march realize that Israel is hardly the bastion of gay friendly policies that you make it out to be (try to be gay in the Occupied Territories among the Jewish religious fanatics, one of whom blew up a gay bar in Tel Aviv last year). Moreover, Israel plays itself up to be a far more tolerant place than it is for gay men and women precisely because it wants to use this as propaganda against Arab countries (“Israel is freedom, Islam is tyranny” blah, blah, blah). All of which is to say, the organizers of this march didn’t want to be used for pro-Israel propaganda and responded accordingly. I, for one, applaud this.

  5. E.G. says:

    entresminutos,

    Could you please clarify what González says?
    Is it the gays in general that usually pose as victims or the Israeli ones in this case?

  6. E.G. says:

    The second part of González’s phrase is a classic. The rapist accuses the raped for the crime he committed but won’t assume.

  7. Sergio says:

    Again, what whould one expect from a country that invented racism avant la lettre “limpieza de sangre” and that still can’t handle the horrors of their civil war and decades of dictatorship?

  8. Sergio says:

    Again, what whould one expect from a country that invented racism avant la lettre (“limpieza de sangre”) and that still can’t handle the horrors of their civil war and decades of dictatorship?

  9. Richard Landes says:

    nhd: thanks for your post. responses below in italic – rl

    I appreciate your righteous indignation, but I think the organizers of this march realize that Israel is hardly the bastion of gay friendly policies that you make it out to be (try to be gay in the Occupied Territories among the Jewish religious fanatics, one of whom blew up a gay bar in Tel Aviv last year).

    assuming that you’re right in your blanket description of evil settlers, how does this distinguish it from a dozen countries in which such homophobes living in the boonies beat up gays. wouldn’t you have to exclude almost every country if you disqualified any country where there was a small minority of angry testosteronic males, repressed by law, who nonetheless occasionally broke out in violence?

    Moreover, Israel plays itself up to be a far more tolerant place than it is for gay men and women precisely because it wants to use this as propaganda against Arab countries (”Israel is freedom, Islam is tyranny” blah, blah, blah).

    i find this remark fascinating. correct me if i’m wrong. are you claiming
    a) israel tries to be a far more tolerant state (legal protections for gays including the right to march in jerusalem), in order to use it as propaganda? (ie, they don’t really care about these principles of tolerance and the rule of law, it’s all a show.)
    b) that as propaganda (blablabla) it should be rejected whether it’s accurate – i.e., Israel is far more tolerant of homosexuals than any place in the Arab (or Muslim, for that matter) world?

    All of which is to say, the organizers of this march didn’t want to be used for pro-Israel propaganda and responded accordingly. I, for one, applaud this.

    So apparently, yes to b) at least. So as not to get “used” defending a (relatively-speaking) highly tolerant state and society (Israel), you prefer that the organizers cave to the intolerant threats of violence from pathologically homophobic political actors?

    or have i misunderstood you? and if i have, please clarify what it is i’ve misunderstood.

  10. Sergio says:

    This nhd’ comment is just *typical* of the current intellectual bankcruptcy in the West. The conceptual flattness, the moral equivalence of everything, a complete mental muddle. Amazing indeed. I m astonished with RL’s patience too! :)

  11. incognito says:

    These useful idiots are coming out of the woodwork.
    The gullibility of these assholes to the propaganda of the islamists and the MSM is stunning. They have no discerning or critical faculties, they swallow everything lock stock and barrel and are totally unableto reason. It’s tragic what liberal democracies are producing these days.

  12. incognito says:

    Such retardedness in people who are discriminated against to the point of violence and murder which leads them to confuse their own kind with their murderers won’t keep them alive or very long.

    Perhaps there is something in the claim that it’s a sin against god — and I’m an atheist.

  13. incognito says:

    rl,

    There is NO WAY you can get thru to this ilk. There is no intellect/cognitive ability whatsoever.

    BTW, did you notice that they do what the arabs do when they feel powerless? The arabs turn not against their dictators, but against their women, The nhd’s turn not against their killers, the muslim, but against their savers, Israel. Always against the weaker.

    Pretty moral on their part, don’t you think?

  14. Sergio says:

    Talking about coming out, another milestone was tresspassed with that senile lady Thomas. The climate of bien-pensants opinion is such that she felt she could say what she did and woulnd’t be molested. Not only was she right: she’s got a pension! Imagine the $$$ she’ll get for interviews in Al-that-Jazzera et al.

  15. jay says:

    Richard,

    Can I ask you a question, and I mean it in all seriousness and non-snarkiness.

    What sustains your never-ending geyser of righteous indignation?

    I mean, really. Isn’t there a point where an adult just throws in the towel and says, “this is insanity, and there’s no point in trying to make sense of it”?

    I am not saying you should stop supporting Israel, but collecting more and better examples of anti-Israel bias strikes me as a very sterile endeavor.

    Regarding this gay pride thing, do you think that a gay pride parade is an example of a free exchange of ideas? It isn’t. By nature a gay-pride parade is a one-sided biased presentation of a certain viewpoint. They have every right to exclude Israelis. I have every right to think they are assholes.

    Just as a matter of fact, the guy who said that Israel uses gay pride as a propaganda weapon is right. Not that there’s anything wrong with that – this is war, and every bit of information is a weapon. But from my knowledge of the situation on the ground, Israel tolerates gays and lesbians but is hardly welcoming. A few gay bars and formal inclusion of gays in the military hardly makes Israel the Netherlands. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

    Sure, being gay is way better in Israel than Gaza. But so what? Really, what is the point of getting worked up over this stupid non-issue?

  16. entresminutos says:

    E.G.

    Sorry for my English, I thougth it was clear. Gonzalez is talking about the israeli. Gonzalez is the president of the Gay association of Madrid, the one that has vetoed the israeli.

    Sergio.

    I don’t know if you are spanish or not (you have a spanish name), but what you are speaking nonsense. Spain did not invented racism, don’t start with the Black Leyend again.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Legend.

    Yes, there were “limpieza de sangre” policies. And?. Where they the only contrys in the world and in history to apply such rules?

    And how is this subject related to the Civil War?

    Don’t do with Spain the same thing many people does with USA or Israel. It right to point out some problems, that what I have done, but not to the point of saying “What can you expect from them?. They have always been the scum of earth”.

  17. Sergio says:

    Dear entresminutos,

    No, I’m not spanish, I’m brazilian, and, to be honest, I am a bit tired of spanish arrogance and how they view themselves as judges of morality. My point is that, yes, spain invented biological racism with the “limpieza de sangre”, expelled their jewish population (sure, England did that too) and persecuted the converted. So, historically they contributed very much to antisemitism.

    Though this is unrelated to the civil war, my point is that Spain has lots of unresolved issues concerning massacres in that war, and, maybe, they should try to solve them before hectoring others, don’t you think?

    Also, how does it feel to have your country poked a little? It sucks, eh? So, think again when you read El Pais next time.

    And, finally, yes, I think Brazilian president Lula is a moron.

  18. E.G. says:

    entresminutos,

    Gracias. It’s less your English than my need to be sure of my understanding.

  19. entresminutos says:

    Sergio

    I guessed you were from South America. That kind of antispanish speech usually comes from anticolonialism. Kind of old speech, by the way. Boring, really. Maybe you hate your ancestors (or where the portuguese conquerors better than the spanish?). Anyway, that is your problem, not mine.

    Speaking of arrogace, do you know what newspaper I do read?. Wow!. But, wrong. Guess again.

    No matter how many times you say it, it won’t become true. Biological racism was not invented in Spain.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism#In_history

    Wow, we have unresolved issued, there were massacres in the Civil War. Point me out a contry that has no unresolved issues. Following your logic, no one can say nothing about other countries.

    And really, I don’t mind if someone makes a fair critique of Spain, as long as is not based on cliches, and ignorance. I agree with the analisys of Richard Landes on this Gay Parade issue, you won’t hear me complainig about it.

    But you are just giving an antispanish hate speech. A quite lame one, by the way. I just wanted to point it out.

  20. E.G. says:

    I’m not sure this is the most appropriate place but there’s this conversion of women to Islam that is a relatively recent phenomenon.

    The most weired case is the Leftist women.


    Leftist Tali Fahima converts to Islam

    Here’s an interesting analysis of their motives:
    Wear a veil if you must, Yvonne. But stop demonizing Western culture

  21. Sergio says:

    Listen, senõr entresegundos, I also don’t care much about your national oversensitivities. This is your problem. By the way, wasn’t nationalism supposed to be over? By the way, you should be ashamed of spewing’s antisouthamerica hatred speech. I could be from Italy too, which shows your ignorance of your own continent. Ah, those enlightened europeans!

    Now, at least you concede that your country has many unresolved issues. You should include antisemitism in the list.

  22. entresminutos says:

    Sergio

    You could be from Italy? You have said you are Bralizian, in comment 17. That’s why I assumed you are Bralizian. As I’ve said before, you are talking nonsense.

    I don’t have national oversensitivities. I’m just pointing out your prejudices. I haven’t given an antisouthamerica hatred speech. I haven’t said nothing about the people in South America in general. I have only said “That kind of antispanish speech usually comes from anticolonialism”. Doesn’t mean that every South American is a dupe. But some of them are. Like some germans, some italians, and of course some spaniards, and so on.

    And, what about the portuguese conquerors?. I’m waiting for your answer.

  23. Sergio says:

    By the way, browsing the wikipedia site on “limpieza de sangre” (cleaneness of blood) quoted by hidalgo minutos, on finds that:

    “Nevertheless, the concept of cleanliness of blood came to be more focused on ancestry than of personal religion. The first statute of purity of blood appeared in Toledo, 1449.”

    Now, if that is not racism, señor minutos, what is?

  24. Sergio says:

    Entresminutos,

    I guess you have some difficulty recognizing sarcasm. Never mind. Of course, Portuguese colonialism was another disaster, mainly to natives. See? And Brasil was one of the last countries to abolish slavery (1888). Yes, that’s shameful but I’m not having a fit or having my nationaliy offended, as you did. And Lula’s foreign policy is pathetic example of backwards anti-american thirld-worldism.

    Now, are you happy? Can I bash Spain a little? Can you take it? Like her pusilanimity of giving in to the terrorist by abandoning the coalition in Iraq.
    Or the sickening boycott to holocaust ceremonies? Of its rampant antisemitism disguised as antizionism?

  25. entresminutos says:

    Sergio, seriously, this is boring. Of course the “limpieza de sangre” was racist. I have said that Spain did not invented racism, not that Spain has never been racist.

    Of course those laws were awful, and racist, as were the slavery and many other things. But Spain was not the first (neither the last) place were those horrible things happened. Every country in the west has a past, and Spain is not better, nor worse, than the others. But, why should we keep punishing ourselves forever?.

    What you have said about the spaniards, this “what do you expect from them” line, is the same as saying “the germans were nazis once, what can you expect from them”, or “the people from USA had slaves once, and Jim Crow laws, what can you expect from them”. Pure nonsense.

  26. Michelle Schatzman says:

    E.G., I had so much fun reading the Tali Fahima conversion story. From helping the Al Aqsa martyrs to embracing Sheikh Raed Salah… at least, when Uri Davis converted to islam, it was because he wanted to marry a beautiful woman. I would have called that “quequettotropisme” in half-familiar, half-learned french, but I’d rather not translate into english, for fear of not reproducing exactly the same level of language.

    But this Tali, she puts a keffieh as a head scarf, and she might even be convinced, since she does not need to convert in order to marry a muslim!

    Has she got this organ, called brains, inside her skull?

  27. Michelle Schatzman says:

    Senhor Sergio, señor Entresminutos,

    may I observe that your interesting dialogue is slightly OT?

  28. entresminutos says:

    Sergio, you really are a dupe. I won’t bother to answer anymore.

    Read the comment 3, by the way.

  29. entresminutos says:

    Michelle

    Yes, you can. I agree. That’s why I am stoping.

  30. Sergio says:

    Sr. entresegundos, you are a self-righteous ignorati.

    Sorry señorita Michelle.

  31. Sergio says:

    Sorry Michelle, one last bit: I said spain invented biological racism, not racism pure an simple. Congrats to sr. entremenudos.

  32. Sergio says:

    Entreminutos,

    Ok, I have missed your recognition of antisemitism in spain. I apologize.

  33. E.G. says:

    Michelle,

    Yes, better avoid the translation. :-D

    Now that the Hidalgos seem to have concluded a ceasefire, can we discuss (Leftist) chicas and niñas conversions?

  34. obsy says:

    I think we have to look at this from a social point of view.

    Gays have received most support in the rise of their lifestyles from the left.

    What I hear from time to time is that gays don’t like the “haters”. When they feel minorities in their countries and communities threatened, IMO, they take that very serious and are oversensitive in that respect, maybe because they believe they will be the next.

    The media narrative of concentration camp Gaza is hitting the right buttons.

    This feeling may overrule knowledge of Islam and history of other people (Muslims). Their own experience and “own” history in Christian/Jewish societies are more important.

  35. Michelle Schatzman says:

    Hey, E.G., do we have another funny example of conversion of a niña judía y agradable to islam? Can’t draw a law from the observation of Ms Tali Fahima’s behavior only!

  36. Michelle Schatzman says:

    Sergio,

    you are rejuvenating me! Calling me señorita! Nothing could please more the ramamitkal!

  37. incognito says:

    E.G., I had so much fun reading the Tali Fahima conversion story. From helping the Al Aqsa martyrs to embracing Sheikh Raed Salah

    These people seem to have a congenital desperate need for a cause, some cause, and some attention to be able to live. My guess is they have nothing else in their lives and they are nobody because they lack much intellect and cuases give them a reason to live as well as a social network.

    Leftism, islamism, who cares — she probably thinks — as long as I have a cause and somebody pays attention to me.

  38. incognito says:

    Or perhaps Fatimah has picked the strong horse?

  39. Sergio says:

    OK, what about moza donosa, instead? :)

  40. E.G. says:

    The Hidalgos duel is, in part, linked to the conversion phenomenon. Conversion touches more non-Jewish women than Jewish/Israeli ones (I’ve been told that in Europe there’s money involved), and what Stephanie Gutmann highlights is their sense of purity that is satisfied by adopting the seclusion of the non-secular. Limpieza anyone?

    I’ve noted on several occasions the Left’s obsession with cleanliness. First and foremost the Moral one.

    I intuit that obsy’s remarks on gays’ self-perception and social positioning is also related to this obsession, but for the moment I’m not clear about it. Help anyone?

  41. Eliyahu says:

    nhd #4, it is particularly outrageous that you “know” who killed two persons in that gay club in Tel Aviv last summer. You “know” that the killer was a “Jewish religious fanatic” from what you call “the Occupied Territories.” You are arguing purely from prejudice. In my opinion, the killings were another provocation in order to embarass the Netanyahu government when it was running into opposition from Obama’s White House or vice-versa. See link:
    http://ziontruth.blogspot.com/2009/08/tel-aviv-gay-murders-provocation-for.html

    From the details known about the killing, it is likely that the killer [and accomplice/s/] were not dressing in any way like religious Jews. Neither a knitted skullcap typical of the national Jews who live in Judea-Samaria nor the black garb of the Haredi orthodox [ultra-orthodox]. If they had been dressed that way they would have been noticed on the crowded streets of that part of Tel Aviv at that time. So there was no visible sign that the killer [and accomplice or accomplices] were religious Jews. In fact, not long before the killings [a few days as I recall] someone in the Shas party had spoken harshly of homosexuals. The Shas party following are more likely to dress in the black Haredi garb than in the garb of national religious Jews. They are also less likely to live in Judea-Samaria. Further, some people close to Meretz accused the Shas personalities [not the national religious] for provoking these murders by their words. But there was no proof. Merely those harsh remarks. But no proof.

    The culprits were professional killers who knew how to kill quickly and get away quickly. I believe that the killings were a provocation in hopes of a reaction such as you, nhd, supplied. Read the blog post at the link above.

  42. Eliyahu says:

    Speaking of the hatred of Jews, it goes back long before the Spanish notion of “limpieza de sangre.” I once read a French article on the origins of racism in the biological sense. The author put a lot of blame on Buffon who had worked out a scientific classification of animal species, as Linnaeus had done for plants.

    But we ought to consider that the hatred leading to the Holocaust was not due to simple racism.

    What explains the riot in Madrid the other day against an Israeli [I think that he was a scientist talkng about "green energy"] in which a car windshield was busted?? Spain is a country where few Jews have lived since 1492, although there are maybe 50,000 Jews in the country now. So nothing done by the Jews living there now can have caused that riot. Rather it was hysteria over alleged Israeli crimes, particularly to the Turkish “freedom armada”, that led to the riot. This indicates deep prejudices in Spain against Jews that were not caused by anything contemporary Jews have done. It is curious that some Europeans where few Jews now live or ever lived are the locations are of the most extreme Israelophobia.

    By the way, does anyone remember the principle that “civilians are innocent” and should not be harmed? Was that principle in effect when the Spanish rioters went after that man in Madrid the other day?

  43. E.G. says:

    Eliyahu,

    I’m afraid you need an update: “civilians are innocent unless they’re Israelis” for at least the past 10 years.

  44. Sergio says:

    Well, it seems the OT discussion is back, eh?

    My point in the clash with señor Minutos (besides a bit of provocation, I concede) is that a country like Spain, with a past of antisemitism, should be extra-careful before going around with moralizing posturing. He himself conceded there’s rampant antisemitism in Spain nowadays, w/ usual “anti-zionism” mask, which add to the insult.

    Same goes with Turkey and other Euro-moralists. Now, one of the typical replies, the one Entresminutos used btw, is that “every country makes mistakes” and “then no country can be criticized due to past errors?” is totally diversionist. We all very much know which country has been relentlessly castigaded by so-called
    “international community” while the worst genocidaires go happy around, and they even join the chorus!

  45. Paco from Sefarad says:

    Unless I’ve missed it nobody has mentioned here that one of the reasons given by the Spanish gays for dis-inviting the Tel Aviv contingent was because the Tel Aviv town council refused to condemn the recent flotilla boarding (I refuse to call it an attack – it was the “peace activists” who attacked the IDF).

    See here:
    http://tinyurl.com/29yosu6

    (Their emphasis)

    La carroza gay procedente de Israel, que tenía previsto participar el próximo 3 de julio en la marcha del orgullo gay de Madrid, no podrá hacerlo finalmente porque su organizador, el Ayuntamiento de Tel Aviv, no ha condenado públicamente el ataque israelí a la Flotilla humanitaria de la Libertad ocurrido la semana pasada.

    So, basically they want an Israeli town council to criticise its own national government’s policy on something completely divorced from gay issues as a precondition for being accepted.

    Reminiscent of the Nazis and Jewish Kapos?

  46. incognito says:

    This indicates deep prejudices in Spain against Jews that were not caused by anything contemporary Jews have done.

    I don’t think the maurs could have dhimmified the jews in Spain without some local acceptance of that.

    Today the general european instinct is anti-Israel. The simple reason is that europe is in free fall, increasingly islamized (spain in particular practically bankrupt) and this is the context for scapegoating. Now, who can they scapegoat these days cost-free?

  47. Michelle Schatzman says:

    Senhor Sergio,

    In fact, all nation-states are built on blood, battle and treachery. The problem is not whether this happened, it is whether this is still happening, how much, and how a given nation-state relates to its past. If the moral is “do what I say, not what I did”, it is not very credible, period.

    Regardign Señor entresminutos, I believe that it is not appropriate to load him with all the sins of Spain, no more than it would be appropriate to load you with all the sins of Brazil (and don’t tell me Brazil has no sins, I won’t buy it). I am french and I am *not* gulty for the Vichy regime, for the Dreyfus affair or for torture by the army during the war of Algeria. I am not even guilty for the present antisemitism (guess why ?).

    I don’t think that looking for every nation’s sins on this blog is terribly interesting. If you really want to do that together, you could ask our gracious host to transmit your mail to the other party, and discuss in private all the sins of the nations which were at some point of history dominated by iberic peoples. That might occupy you happily for some time.

  48. incognito says:

    I believe that it is not appropriate to load him with all the sins of Spain

    I did not pay enough attention to the exchange to know whether this is what Sergio was doing, so I am just stating here a general principle: a participant here should be judged strictly based on her/his positions and their logical implications, and not those of his country, unless, of course, he defends the latter.

  49. Sergio says:

    Senhora Michelle,

    Another option is that you just don’t read my messages, if they occupy your precious time so much.

    If you noticed, the discussion you called OT came back, so maybe it was not that OT as you thought.

    Now, you and entremenudo seem to be easily offended by criticism of your nations. I have no problem with criticism of my country’s past and present failures, and I exemplified in my replies. This may help us understand our past and try to avoid mistakes.

    That doesn’t mean that I’m saying you or him are responsible for past sins. But everyone should be responsible for knowing a bit of history, how it affected the past and how it may be affecting the present. Even more so, and *this* is the center of my point, when some countries, particularly in Europe, assume a moralizing posture. In particular, the fact that France and Spain had a dark past of antisemitism is very important to keep in mind. Germany seemed to have done a better job in dealing with her past.

    Now, back to the supremely important issue of deluded damsels in distress, or infidel jungle-fever.

  50. Sergio says:

    BTW, there’s a brilliant essay by Eve Garrard on normblog
    related to other countries’sins vis a vis Irael.

    http://normblog.typepad.com/normblog/2010/06/israel-human-decency-common-humanity-by-eve-garrard.html

    PS: Michelle and/or Entremenudos, please feel free to ignore this comment.

  51. incognito says:

    In particular, the fact that France and Spain had a dark past of antisemitism is very important to keep in mind.

    Not just past. It looks very current to me.

    Germany seemed to have done a better job in dealing with her past.

    Hhhhmmmm, perhaps because it had much more intense dealing to do. Nevertheless, I would not be so sure about that either. Lots of lurking, particularly with all those turks in.

  52. Sergio says:

    Incognito,

    “Not just past. It looks very current to me.”

    Exactly! That’s what I meant when I said it add insult to injury.

    No doubt Germany was the central origin of the Shoah, so they had to look at their past much more deeply. But, of course, it’s not easy: recall the brouhaha of Goldhagen’s book.

  53. E.G. says:

    Hidalgos,

    May or should I remind you that Western Germany was the only country to benefit from a denazification programme?

  54. Sergio says:

    Compadre EG,

    The denazification programme was a sham, at least with respect to punishing criminals and accomplices. It began well, the main nazis were hanged, but then the cold war began and from then on, leniency took hold. Many nazis were on the payroll of americans. Meanwhile the always nice and compassionate Vatican established it infamous ratline to give shelter to such persecuted refugees such as Stangl et caterva.

  55. E.G. says:

    Caro Sergio,

    As bad as it might have been, the denazification programme – especially the educational part – proved better than the nothing done in/for other countries.

  56. Sergio says:

    Prezado EG,

    I agree. No doubt the educational part seemed to have worked, plus the american/english occupation, the economic help and all that. But, in terms of punishment of the many implicated in atrocities, it was a disgrace.

    Um abraço.

  57. Sergio says:

    EG,

    And regarding other countries: what about the scandal of deciding that Austria was a victim of the nazis? They cheerfully embraced Hitler and there was a high percentage of austrians in the extermination camp command and administration.

    Now, just in case there’s any austrians in this blog: I am not loading the sins of that generation on you, so no tantrums, please.

  58. entresminutos says:

    I think you are missing something about spanish (and also european) antisemitism. The spanish people don’t hate Israel because they hate the jews, they hate the jews because thay hate Israel. This started whith the soviet propaganda, and became worst with the Al-Durah incident. What do the spanish people see in the news, what do they read in the newpapers? They see this powerful nation killing the poor palestinians, they see the pallywood propaganda.

    Of course this Israel hate is fueling back the antisemitism, the “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion” old song. Of course there is a pre-existent condition, but I don’t think that this condition is the main force behind the new antisemitism.

    This is not related with the old antisemitism, the “limpieza the sangre” policies. The regular spaniard don’t hate the jews because his father has taught him so. It’s the way the news tell the history what it is changing the people’s mind. And the more leftist you are, the more Noam Chomsky and Naomi Klein books you read, the more you believe in the international jew conspiracy.

    You can’t blame the regular guy for the loss of the cognitive war. Blame the intellectuals, blame those who create opinion, blame the leaders, blame the left propagadist. The regular guy thinks what he is told to think, what the newspaper he reads tell him to think.

  59. E.G. says:

    entresminutos,

    You’re describing a debilitated people (regular guys).

  60. Sergio says:

    Well, I agree the soviets were intrumental in spreading antizionist propaganda, which by the way, was already a code word for antisemitism. And I agree that “intellectuals”, particularly self-style progressives or left-wing, are the main culprits. But it is really hard to separate the current antizionism from a disguised or
    politically correct antisemitism. The accusations are similar, the same obsession and monomania. Usually antisemitism grow where there is a receptivity to it, and a previous history could very well be playing a role.

    But, also, I guess the regular guy too has to be blame for cognitive bias. A citizen has to be responsible for his opinions and be informed of the consequences of them. Because they are the ones that pay attention to dupes and demopaths.

  61. entresminutos says:

    E.G.

    Yes, I’m describing a debilitated people. I’m describing a sick people. Sickned by the tiranny of guilt, by the soviet memes that survived the fall of the Berlin wall, by the void that this fall have left.

    The Defense Minister of Defense of Spain says she is a pacifist. The former one said that it is better to die than to kill. The spanish soldiers in Afganistan have order of not returning fire. Many people (mostly young people)I know says that the army is pointless, that we should get rid of the army and live forever in peace. They don’t see the danger in having a neighbour like the King of Morocco that have said many times that he wants the Canary Islands. They don’t see the danger in Hamas saying that they want Al-Andalus back. They don’t understand that our army is the only thing holding them back. They don’t want to face the ugly truth. It’s Chamberlain again, and the problem is that there are no Churchills.

  62. Sergio says:

    Entresminutos,

    Even after the attack in Madrid? Spanish people think that was their fault?

  63. E.G. says:

    Sergio,

    Of course! Why else would some oppressed guys get themselves blown-up?

  64. incognito says:

    entresminutos,

    Yes, I’m describing a debilitated people. I’m describing a sick people.

    Don’t worry, they’ll get what they deserve.

    Ignorance and stupidity is not a survival method.

  65. Sergio says:

    So, I guess they hate Israel even more as they as see that Israel dares to do what it takes to defend herself, including violence against (and killing of) lunatic jihadists.

    There’s curious parallel here with jew’s role in medieval
    Europe: they were hated for doing the despised but essencial job of money-lending (“usury”) without which the princes couldn’t manage their feuds. Moreover they had no choice as the “dignified” professions were forbbiden to jews by the Church.

  66. E.G. says:

    incognito and Sergio,

    Please, can you take into account that non-Jews don’t have the same associations Jews have?

  67. entresminutos says:

    Incognito

    I know you are being sarcastic, but I am worried. I live in Spain. If they “get what they deserve”, I will also be getting the same “medicine”.

  68. Sergio says:

    Entresmimutos,

    In fact, Spain already has got a deadly terrorist attack.
    That should have opened their eyes to the real threat of islamofacism.

    EG: I don’t get it. Care to explain?

  69. Sergio says:

    By the way, Entresminutos, someone should have asked your Minister of Defense how can one be a pacifist with some kamikazes that are ready to die trying to exterminate you. Same against the nazis: pacifists helped in delaying the allies preparedness to fight them.

  70. E.G. says:

    Sergio,

    Second trial.
    What’s obvious for Jews, or for people who’ve been acquainted for a long-time with Jews and Judaism (or the Jewish psyche), is less so for non-Jews and more or less recent Zion-sympathisers or just people shocked by the most recent manifestations of Judeophobia.
    One such less obvious task is connecting the dots.

    As I understand it, entresminutos is horrified by the Spanish/European situation. He sees anti-Semitism disguised as anti-Zionism as part of the problem, not (yet?) as its core.
    He’s here to inform and to seek information. Perhaps some moral/intellectual anchors too.
    (entresminutos — do correct me if I’m wrong)

    Perhaps adjusting expectations and a bit of patience won’t harm the dialogue?

  71. incognito says:

    I know you are being sarcastic, but I am worried. I live in Spain. If they “get what they deserve”, I will also be getting the same “medicine”.

    Yes, I know, I have the same problem in the US, although here I will probably die before it gets that bad.

    Unfortunately they can’t deny reality that long. Given that Spain is in the footsteps of Greece economically and UK’s islamically, you may want to reconsider where you live, although it’s becoming more difficult to find good alternatives.

    You might want to reconsider where you live

  72. incognito says:

    There’s curious parallel here with jew’s role in medieval
    Europe: they were hated for doing the despised but essencial job of money-lending (”usury”) without which the princes couldn’t manage their feuds. Moreover they had no choice as the “dignified” professions were forbbiden to jews by the Church.

    The causes and mechanisms of anti-semitism don’t change much in substance, only in form.

  73. entresminutos says:

    E.G.

    My intention is to give an inside view on the Spanish psyche. I have been following this blog since I saw the Pallywood documentary two years ago, but I don’t usually comment. It is hard for me to write in English, and I don’t usually have nothing interesting to say, neither am I and expert on the subject. But if you are talking about Spanish history and present, well, I think I know something about it.

    Ten years ago, there were more pro-Israel than pro-palestinian people in Spain. Having a problem with terrorism ourselves (ETA), people used to understand that the guys with the bombs were the bad guys, and Israel had the right to defend his citizens. There were only a few, among the extreme left, siding with Fatah. The Al-Durah images changed all. The israeli soldiers killed a boy, on purpose, so now the israeli were the bad guys. Those images were in the news 24/7, we saw him die 200 times. Everyone has seen this. No one has seen the Pallywood documentary.

    I think this new antisemitism is diferent from the formers. No ones remember the “limpieza de sangre”, those are 16th century issues. Few people care about the jews in Spain in the 19th century. There were none living here. So I don’t think there is a direct link between the old and the current judeophobia in Spain. Of course there are memes, and there are people being infected by those old memes, but there are other factors in the equation, like the antiamericanism.

    The best example I can find, is that now there are good jews and bad jews. In the old antisemitism, all the jews were bad. Now you can find a radical antizionist who goes to a Woody Allen movie, or who admires Albert Einstein. As long as the jew does not speak in favor of Israel, and does not handle too much money (pun intended), he can be good. And they love an antizionist jew.

  74. entresminutos says:

    Incognito

    I’d rather stay and fight back. I like the lost causes. You can call me romantic if you want. :D

    I am not that pesimist. Maybe some things will flip around, maybe Europe will be able to wake up before it is to late.

  75. incognito says:

    I’d rather stay and fight back. I like the lost causes. You can call me romantic if you want. :D

    That’s your prerogative. But you’ll be fighting windmills. Europe is gone and so is the US. Look around: they barely count anymore.

    I am not that pesimist. Maybe some things will flip around, maybe Europe will be able to wake up before it is to late.

    What you call pessimism I call realism and I call your perspective unwarranted optimism. I will deem any flips possible when I see any evidence that suggest that. Unfortunately, what I see is evidence of constant deterioration.

    I really would like you to prove me wrong.

  76. incognito says:

    The spanish people don’t hate Israel because they hate the jews, they hate the jews because thay hate Israel.

    A distinction without a difference.

    The Al-Durah images changed all.

    I very much doubt that just one such incident can completely reverse positions so drastically. What is more, the incident was proved to be a lie. All this indicates that there was already anti-jewish proneness, that it probably was hidden, that it was very easy to extract to the surface and that even evidence to the contrary did not help.

    As long as the jew does not speak in favor of Israel, and does not handle too much money (pun intended), he can be good. And they love an antizionist jew.

    Well, those of us who know history know that the two are inherently related. Spain is in trouble and that’s the time they scapegoat and jews are the traditional, no-cost scapegoat. Since I know with 100% certainty that europenas don’t give a ff about the pals, that means that the anti-zionist position is anti-semitims in disguise.

  77. E.G. says:

    incognito,

    It’s one vivid exemplar, that keeps being revived, directly and by association. Even when refuting it – it’s reactivated in memory.

    The atavistic link goes so far that entresminutos has a hard time finding its relevance. And the convergence with anti-Americanism takes an extra significance in a country that has so many piazzas and streets named Cristobal Colon. Recall RL’s “envy” factor?

  78. entresminutos says:

    incognito

    Sorry, it’s hard for me to explain what I think. Of course it’s not only the Al-Durah images, that hardly could explain all. That was only an important turning point, but there were more images, before and after that.

    I don’t know, maybe there is and anti-jew proneness.

  79. E.G. says:

    entresminutos,

    You’re doing fine. And, as you see, I and others don’t hesitate to ask for clarifications when necessary.

    How’s anti-Colonialism doing in Spain? Much guilt? Much repentance? How does it operate with the (stereotypical?) Spanish pride?

  80. entresminutos says:

    E.G.

    To understand the present in Spain, you have to understand the 40 year of dictatorship under Francisco Franco. It was a fascist regime (more like the Italian than the German one), with strong accent on nationalism, pride on the Spanish history, the Empire, the catholic kings and the conquest of America, the conversion of the Indians, and so on.

    Once this regime was over, there was a reaction, and people shifted to the opposite narrative (specially the leftists). And the new narrative is “we were so evil during the conquest, we made a genocide with the Indians”. Many people hates the catholic church, the Spanish flag, and anything related to the things that Franco used as propaganda. So yes, there is guilt, and repentance. And it is worse among the young people.

  81. E.G. says:

    entresminutos,

    And the shift took away that deeply rooted pride?

    I didn’t notice it 2-3 years ago in Barcelona (but we only spent an extended week-end). I recall being amazed by the the adverts on the Grand Cathedral restoration funded by some banks: how un-Catholic!

  82. entresminutos says:

    I’m not sure what you mean with this pride. You mean the “macho” culture?. The bullfighter image?

    I think most of the Spanish people will tell you that Spain is the best place to live, because people are open and funny, and the food is better, that kind of things. Is that the pride you mean?

    We see ourselves less European than the Germans, more third country alike. There is sort of a complex with this issue. There is a catchphrase “Africa starts in the Pyrenees (the mountains between France and Spain)”.

    We also have this thing with nationalism, there are the Basques, and the Catalans, there is separatism, and many of the Catalans ans Basques hates Spain.

    If someone (lets call him Fernando) is talking to a leftist, or a separatist, and he says that he feels Spanish, and he loves his flag and traditions, it is very likely that this person will think that Fernando is a fascist, admirer of Franco.

    The only context were you can wear a flag an be proud about your country, is a football or tennis match.

    It is a complex country, with a complex history.

  83. Sergio says:

    Talking about complexity, we should also remember that Franco rejected an alliance with Hitler, which shows there are shades of fascism: Franco’s was in the catholic ultramontane brand; Hitler’s was neo-pagan and uncompromisingly racist and antisemitic.
    Also, recall that some jews were able to escape the nazis through Spain and Portugal.

  84. incognito says:

    I don’t know, maybe there is and anti-jew proneness.

    We jews ave thousands of years of history which teaches as that seldom that is NOT the case.

    Many people hates the catholic church, the Spanish flag, and anything related to the things that Franco used as propaganda.

    Well, that makes sense. Hence:

    1. Fascism is prone to anti-semitism so some of that must have been instilled.

    2. There was a leftist revolution which was killed with much blood, so there are leftist roots too.

    If they hate all that then it’s not a nation and it will be discarded. Indeed, what the concept does is to do away with nations and have an elected bureacracy dictate every little thing that people should do.

  85. incognito says:

    We see ourselves less European than the Germans, more third country alike.

    Judging by the economy, you are.

    We also have this thing with nationalism, there are the Basques, and the Catalans, there is separatism, and many of the Catalans ans Basques hates Spain.

    As I said not a full fledged nation.

    It is a complex country, with a complex history.

    If you go deep into its history, all countries are.

  86. E.G. says:

    I meant the hidalgo attitude. Pride in ancestry, in some way.
    Apparently gone. Or only used vis-à-vis foreigners.

    Local Fernandos will face the same reaction in many European countries (they all had their big/little Francos).

  87. Sergio says:

    Talking about complexity, we should also recall that Franco rejected a full-fledged alliance with Hitler and some jews were able to escape from the nazis through Spain and Portugal.

    Now, Entresminutos talks about soviet antizionist propaganda. But this should have influenced only on left wingers. It is hard to believe that a long catholic tradition, which includes antisemitism as an integral part of its mythology, would not facilitate the acceptance of this obssession with Israel.

  88. entresminutos says:

    Yes, all countries are complex. What I meant is that you can not simplify things, or say Spanish people are like this, or French people are like that.

    You can’t explain everything with to phrases in a comment in a blog. You can’t explain the rise of antisemitism in Spain in few words.

    One thing I can tell you for sure, is that in Spain there are few extreme right followers, no more than 5000 neo-nazis for sure. And most of the pro-Israel people are neoliberal. The problem is the left, they are the ones hatching the serpent’s egg.

  89. obsy says:

    “We see ourselves less European than the Germans,”

    Who does not?
    And there is a complex involved in this issue as well…

  90. [...] Idioten/Ungläubige am Werk: Der größte Schwulen-Umzug der Welt findet in Spanien statt. Dort wurde die israelische [...]

  91. E.G. says:

    entresminutos,

    Are you sure it’s a rise of anti-Semitism or is it a revival?

    What makes you sensitive to the issue?

  92. incognito says:

    Who does not?

    Romania, Bulgaria, Albania. Those who can’t survive without aid, mainly from Germany, as the others are bankrupt. Spain may soon need German money too.

    Spain should see to its economic and terror
    problem instead of going around ostracizing Israel.

    It is hard to believe that a long catholic tradition, which includes antisemitism as an integral part of its mythology, would not facilitate the acceptance of this obssession with Israel.

    Indeed. People should check the inquisition in Spain. It is not by chance that the jews were kicked out of there either.

    You can’t explain everything with to phrases in a comment in a blog. You can’t explain the rise of antisemitism in Spain in few words.

    Absolutely. But you can give the gist of it, just like we did here. Those with a modicum of intellect know that a gist is not a full explanation. For those without one it does not matter anyway.

  93. entresminutos says:

    E.G.

    I am not sure if it’s a revival or an independent rise. But the antisemitism in Spain ceased after the XVII century. There were no Jews left. I don’t see how to connect both.

    I am not sensitive about it. I know there is a lot of antisemitism in Spain right now. I just think that it is not directly connected with the inquisition times, at least not for most of the people. It is connected with the leftist ideology much more than with the catholic “they killed god” accusation.

    Speaking of the Inquisition. The Spanish Inquisition persecuted not only the Jews, but also the Muslims. Following the line of though “it all comes from the inquisition days”, the Spanish people should be hating the Muslims now also, and making some noise about Iran.

  94. obsy says:

    incognito,

    there are many Germans from Turkish heritage in Germany who depend on German money. It may shock you to hear, but those usually do not see themselves as Germans. Identity is not determined by the place where your money comes from.

  95. E.G. says:

    entresminutos,

    But the inquisition was not about “they killed God”. It had more to do with compliance to dogma (see e.g., Galileo).
    It called for conversion and submission, including Catholics.

  96. E.G. says:

    obsy,

    Excuse me, your remark is true but I don’t see what it relates to.

  97. entresminutos says:

    E.G.

    Yes, that is my point. In the Spanish case, it was also about unity: “One nation, one faith, one language”.

    I did not used the “they killed God” line in relation with the Inquisition. I used it in relation to the roots of the present judeophobia among the leftist, and how the catholic antisemitism may have influenced them. I think there may be some connection, although most of the Spanish leftists hate the catholic church, but I don’t think this is the driving force. In the Spanish case, it’s more related to the oppressed people paradigm, with Al Fatah being a Marxist liberation movement and Israel a fascist regime. This distorted picture it’s the one that have mostly caused the shift.

  98. E.G. says:

    entresminutos,

    Can you see similarities between the Inquisition (not necessarily only the Spanish one) and other “movements”, with various gods, dogmas, and rulers?

  99. entresminutos says:

    Of course.

    Gestapo, Cheka, any witch hunt, you name it.

  100. incognito says:

    But the antisemitism in Spain ceased after the XVII century. There were no Jews left.

    Heh, heh, heh. I LOVE this.

    I just think that it is not directly connected with the inquisition times, at least not for most of the people.

    It’s connected to catholicism, of which inquisition was also a part.

    The Spanish Inquisition persecuted not only the Jews, but also the Muslims.

    Ah, it’s alright then. What I am interested in is why there is no such thing as jewish persecution of christians or muslims, only the other way around? Does that suggest anything?

  101. incognito says:

    there are many Germans from Turkish heritage in Germany who depend on German money. It may shock you to hear, but those usually do not see themselves as Germans. Identity is not determined by the place where your money comes from.

    only the opposite would shock me. this is nothing different than muslim immigrants in UK, France and any other EU country.

  102. incognito says:

    In the Spanish case, it’s more related to the oppressed people paradigm, with Al Fatah being a Marxist liberation movement and Israel a fascist regime. This distorted picture it’s the one that have mostly caused the shift.

    Most likely. As I argued many times here, the left lost the socioeconomic game so for them to remain left (in which they are invested) they had to find the new oppressed. And in full ignorance of the fact that jihad has nothing to do with left-right, they bastardize themselves into an alliance with it because it is an enemy of the system to whom they have lost.

  103. incognito says:

    Can you see similarities between the Inquisition (not necessarily only the Spanish one) and other “movements”, with various gods, dogmas, and rulers?

    There are secular religions.

  104. entresminutos says:

    incognito

    To be precise, there were Jews left. But they were forced to be catholics, and they disappeared in the common pool (both cultural and genetic).

    I have read something about the Spanish people DNA. 17% in the Spanish DNA pool is Jew.

    And the question “why did the Jews never persecuted the Muslims or the Christians” in tricky. They never (after the Diaspora) had an Empire, a State, they never were majority. They never had the power to do it.

  105. E.G. says:

    entresminutos,

    Witch? ???
    Dissident is a more secular term…
    And we know, don’t we, who is famous for not complying with predominant dogmas.

    So would you consider that la nueva inquisición might be:
    Izquierda Politically Correct?
    Islamic correctness? (Islam = submission)

  106. E.G. says:

    entresminutos,

    I haven’t read about the %tage, but I know about Spanish and Portugese krypto-Jews. They were/are the pseudo(?) compliants.

    When Jews had power – in Judea/Israel – they fought invaders and foes. Persecution is un-Jewish.
    Remember, Abraham went away with his new religion: he didn’t impose it on his milieu. So did Moses: he didn’t stay to convert the Egyptians (and he had a good position to do so).

  107. obsy says:

    E.G,

    In context of the whole dialog it is:

    89.#

    “We see ourselves less European than the Germans,”

    Who does not?
    And there is a complex involved in this issue as well…

    Comment by obsy — June 11, 2010 @ 2:04 pm

    92.#

    Who does not?

    Romania, Bulgaria, Albania. Those who can’t survive without aid, mainly from Germany, as the others are bankrupt. Spain may soon need German money too.

    Comment by incognito — June 12, 2010 @ 11:40 pm

    94.#

    incognito,

    there are many Germans from Turkish heritage …
    Identity is not determined by the place where your money comes from.

    Comment by obsy — June 13, 2010 @ 3:51 am

  108. incognito says:

    To be precise, there were Jews left. But they were forced to be catholics, and they disappeared in the common pool (both cultural and genetic).

    I know. But that changes the irony? I don’t think so.

    I have read something about the Spanish people DNA. 17% in the Spanish DNA pool is Jew.

    If they have catholic roots they might especially hate that.

    They never (after the Diaspora) had an Empire, a State, they never were majority. They never had the power to do it.

    Bingo. And why haven’t they, you think?

    Anyway, they do have a state now and despite universal hatred, even by some of their own christian and muslim citizens, they hardly treat them the way they were treated. Do you think it’s just a coincidence

  109. entresminutos says:

    Israel does not prove your point. It is a civilized modern country.

    We have never seen a medieval Jew State, or a Jew empire. And don’t tell me that such thing would have been impossible.

    I know the Jew religion it’s not expansive, Jews don’t usually try to convert non Jews. But had the Jews had an State, who knows, the religion could have changed. Religions evolves.

  110. incognito says:

    Israel does not prove your point. It is a civilized modern country.

    So are UK and France and look what happens to jews there.

    We have never seen a medieval Jew State, or a Jew empire. And don’t tell me that such thing would have been impossible.

    Heh, heh, heh again. It WAS impossible and guess why.

    But had the Jews had an State, who knows, the religion could have changed. Religions evolves.

    The jews were constantly thrown out of their state and persecuted to this day. One would have thought that with this kind of background they would treat other religions similarly. Yet at the first opportunity they got back in their state, they did not. Any idea why?

  111. Eliyahu says:

    just a few points:

    Albert Einstein was a revered personality for his physics and was also a pacifist. So he can be the good Jew for today’s Euro ignoramuses. In fact, Einstein was also a Zionist and his papers are at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem.

    Entresminutos says that intensive, repetitive electronic media propaganda, especially about the al-Durah case, turned the Spanish people against Israel. So they were susceptible to media brainwashing. Now, who controlled the media? Who engineered that big change in public opinion, assuming that EM is right?? The media in Spain as most places elsewhere was controlled by the “Left” most likely. But the method was worthy of fascists.

    Speaking of fascists, Franco’s foreign policy was pro-Arab and anti-Israel starting from the beginning of his insurrection which depended to a large extent on Moroccan troops [we all recall the line: Lucharon contra los moros, Rumbala rumbala, Ay Manuela.]. At least one expert says that the Moorish troops were the key part of Franco’s armed forces.

    Franco was not a neutral during WW2. Remember that he sent the Blue Division [Division Azul] to the Eastern Front. Axis frogmen operated out of the Spanish port close to Gibraltar [Algeciras?] against Allied shipping entering and leaving the Med. Franco took over Tangier entirely during WW2, eliminating the international regime there. Franco encouraged pro-Axis, pro-Nazi Arab nationalists in the Spanish zone of Morocco. Young Jews in Tangier who wanted to join the Allies were arrested.

    Franco was willing to go into the war if only Hitler had agreed to his territorial ambitions in Africa, all of Morocco plus the Oran region of Algeria, etc. Since Hitler did not agree, Franco limited Spanish participation in the war. Spain did let some Jewish refugees pass through on their way to Portugal. Big deal. When Franco saw that Hitler was losing the war, he decided to help Jews somewhat. He saved some Sefardic Jews in Greece or the Balkans.

    After the war, Franco continued his pro-Arab policy, having his ambassador to Egypt sitting in on a meeting of the Arab League, selling weapons to the palestinian Arabs in 1948, etc. Nasser visited Spain and praised Franco. Likewise, Algerian Muslim leaders praised Spain. Nazi veterans found refuge in Spain [such as Otto Skorzeny] and the PLO set up offices there in the early 1970s, if not in the 1960s.

    So I see Franco’s pro-Arab policy as shaping pro-Arab views in Spain through the schools, through the foreign ministry which did not undergo any great change after Spain shifted to democracy. The Left continued Franco’s pro-Arab policy after it took over. Recall that Spain did not recognize Israel diplomatically until the late 1980s. So I do believe that the past heritage of Spain played a role, including among the Left, and that EM’s example of the al-Durah case was one where the media, most likely controlled by the Left [whatever that means!!], pounded the anti-Israel message into the people’s heads.

  112. E.G. says:

    entresminutos,

    a. I’d appreciate your reply to my #105 -6.

    b. Some comments may seem like personal attacks — but I think they’re not. You’re trying to convey Spanish mainstream thinking, and that’s what is attacked.
    Otherwise, I’m afraid your own thinking sometimes gets mixed with the one you’re “reporting” on (you’re far from being alone in this case), and I’m sure you’d agree with me that your knowledge of Judaism is incomplete.

  113. Sergio says:

    Entreminutos’ belief that antisemitism “ended” in XVII is extremely naive, or better, it is totally false. Not only antisemitims was continually promoted through catholic propaganda. As far as I know, the Inquisition, (which I’m sorry to say, is another pre-modern spanish invention: a totalitarian state-police) was very active till the XVIII-century. Its main job was to harrass the “marranos”, mainly through false accusation from “fellow catholics”, of practicing judaism. Which just shows that for many jews conversion didn’t work at all.

    Elyahu: excellent comments!

  114. Daniel Bielak says:

    Entreminutos “needs“, and millions of other Europeans and other Westerners, “need to believe – out of entreminutos desire to feel superior and to not feel inferior (“The Jews are evil; We (I) am good”) – that “The Jews” are, at least, just as bad the people – the whole western, and Arab, and Muslim, world – that has, for thousands of years, acted towards, and that is currently continuing to acted towards, Jewish people, with vicious, evil, sanctimonious, malice.

  115. Daniel Bielak says:

    I apologize for the grammatical mistakes in my previous comment.

    Also, to clarify

    “…just as bad the people…”

    should be,

    “…just as bad as the people…”

  116. Daniel Bielak says:

    That desire to feel superior – the fact that such people are ignorant (of their own minds) to the degree that they are, and are, resultantly, hold the wrong views that they do, and are as ignorant (of all things) as they are, and feel the antipathy towards Jewish people that they do, that is the root cause of, and is the main aspect of the vicious actions of such people.

    Meaness.

    Treating Jewish people with intransigent contempt – that is for me, a Jewish person, what is so overwhelmingly painful.

  117. Daniel Bielak says:

    “…the whole western, and Arab, and Muslim, world…”

    should be

    “…the whole European, and Arab, and Muslim, world…”

    …and now the whole (European-influenced) world.

  118. E.G. says:

    Daniel,

    I think you’re very wrong about entresminutos.

  119. Sergio says:

    I think Daniel is mistaken in another respect. Though certainly some europeans use any Israel’s misdeed, no matter how out of context, in order to get rid of their guilt regarding jews, the fact is that the opportunities are really scarce. Though Israel is far from perfect (no country is, right?) its record, given the circunstances, is quite good: check Eve Garrard’s essay. And *this* what is probably even more aggravating to Israel haters.
    If Israel were as bad as any African or Arab dictatorship, she wouldn’t be getting all the attention.

  120. Daniel Bielak says:

    entresminutos,

    I apologize for wrongly viewing and describing your views. I now realize, after being corrected by Sergio, that I wrongly viewed and described your views. I did not well, nor fully, read all of what you wrote.

  121. entresminutos says:

    E.G.

    Sorry, I haven’t had much time.

    I wouldn’t call the current European left “New Inquisitors”. They don’t have enough power to persecute and judge, although many leftist seem to have the wish to do so. I mean, they are similar to the Inquisition in a moral sense, but not in fact. They are not hanging people yet. I don’t think is accurate to say so.

    Om the other hand, I do think there is an Islamic Inquisition, especially in countries like Iran or Saudi Arabia.

    Sspeaking of Inquisition, I will say it again. Bad as it was, there is a lot of myth and propaganda involved. This is not a crazy opinion I have, due to “national sensitivity”. It is an historical subject.
    I know wikipedia is not the better place to search for knowledge, but is a good place to start.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revision_of_the_Inquisition

    Of course, my knowledge of the Judaism is not as you kindly point “incomplete”. It’s far worst, I hardly know the basics.

    But, little as I know, I think it’s is pointless to say “Moses did not try to convert the Egyptians”. The Moses of the Bible (I assume it is the same in the Torah) is a fictional character, as Jesus or Buddha. Sure, it may have been an historical Moses, as an historical Jesus, but we don’t know about them. There are many hypothesis, but nothing solid.

    If you are using the Moses example not as an historical fact, but as an “example of behavior” that the Jews have followed since then, I also think it is pointless. The Christians haven’t follow much the Jesus “turn the other cheek” doctrine.

    And make no mistakes, I am being attacked. Read #17, or #114 for the obvious ones. The funny thing is that I am supporting Israel.

    My points of views may be wrong, but at least I know that there are many things that I don’t know. It seem like almost everyone (I am not including you) here know more than me about the Spanish history, culture, present, and people.

  122. entresminutos says:

    Daniel

    It’s O.K. This is a long talk, every comment I make points to a previous one.

    But don’t be so quick on the keyboard next time. :)

  123. Daniel Bielak says:

    Correction:

    I was corrected, not by Sergio, but by E.G. about my wrong views about, and wrong description of, entresminutos.

    Also,

    Sergio,

    you wrote,

    “…Though certainly some europeans use any Israel’s misdeed, no matter how out of context, in order to get rid of their guilt regarding jews..”

    Those such Europeans do not feel guilt, nor remorse, nor compassion. They feel humiliated – for being known for having, and for their parents and grandparents having – for knowing that they, and their parents and their grandparents – mass-murdered, in cold hatred, approximately six million, almost all, of the Jewish people in Europe.

    Their knowing that deeply shakes – profoundly challenges, in their own mind – their deeply held, anciently and continuingly culturally engrained, obscene, perverse, wrong self-view of “The Jews Are Evil; (and/therefore) We Are (I Am) Good”. Their holding that evil wrong view, and their knowing the facts that deeply shake their holding wrong view is painful – unpleasant – to them.

  124. Daniel Bielak says:

    entresminutos,

    Thank you for your forgiveness.

    I’ll try not to be so quick on the keyboard.

    I’m very distressed.

  125. Sergio says:

    Entresminutos,

    I already apologized for any *personal* insult. However, I still think that you tend to be overdefensive when Spanish history gets criticized and then claim you are being “attacked”. We are arguing that some historical trends in Spanish history might be related to its current display of antisemitism. We mentioned the antisemitism teachings of the catholic church, the expulsion of jews, the persecution of the conversos by the Inquisition, the sympathies of Franco’s regime w; arabs. You yourself mentioned soviet propaganda. It is not by pure coincidence nor
    *just* soviet propaganda that finds such fertile proneness to accept the current vilification of Israel,
    dont you think?

  126. incognito says:

    Albert Einstein was a revered personality for his physics and was also a pacifist.

    Einstein was not really jewish and he did not live in the real world. Which is OK, given his contributions.

    Though Israel is far from perfect (no country is, right?) its record, given the circunstances, is quite good

    But it’s much worse than that. Practically all the humongously nasty stuff that is happening in the world is not performed by Israel, but by its enemies and others. To the extent that criticism were targetted at all of them first and only then, in relative manner, to Israel, it would have been acceptable.

    But to ignore practically all of it, or even to praise it (see Ceylon), to focus entirely on Israel and to the point of blatant inventions and lies, that makes it clear beyond all doubt what it really is.

    And Eueopean leaders are pretty explicit about it: their countries are dying and being taken over by muslims, so they are scared shittless and have no choice but kiss their ass. Period.

  127. incognito says:

    They don’t have enough power to persecute and judge, although many leftist seem to have the wish to do so.

    Really? So when Zapatero, instead of catering to its own collapsing economy, demands that EU should break the Gaza blockade, what would you call that? Sure, it’s not the Inquisition, but it sure is in the same spirit. What do you think Zapatero would have done if he could do it himself, without EU approval?

    It seem like almost everyone (I am not including you) here know more than me about the Spanish history, culture, present, and people.

    Perhaps, but more important is the interpretation of that history.

  128. Sergio says:

    Dear incognito,

    Though I agree that Einstein was not much of this world, he was surely an other-wordly jew. And he was politically naive sometimes, but that’s another story.

    Regarding Spain, again, we’re framing some (non-professional, surely) hypothesis of past influence in order to understand the present. I dunno what’s going on that idiot Zapatero’s mind (and I couldn’t care less), but his moralizing (im)posture re. Israel is ridiculous. Also recall the episode of the kefiyeh.

  129. E.G. says:

    entresminutos,

    Thanks, now I have little time :-(

    I wouldn’t call the current European left “New Inquisitors”.

    The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak…
    And I don’t think Euro Left is much different than anywhere else Left.

    And both the “Left” and Islamists have submission on their mind. Not only “back there” but “over here” too. It’s called an agenda in PC.

    They do persecute and judge, and there are killings, some real and some virtual (e.g., media campaigns against persons/movements).

    The Inquisition was very good for collaborators. They greatly benefitted from it. And hangings were the charitable way to end people’s lives. Burning was much more fun for the populace gathering at the public square, and had educational virtues too.
    It also had the advantage of inventiveness: interrogation and confession extortion techniques had to be painful enough, but not lethal; so instruments had to be used with learned precautions.

    Abraham and Moses are examples, whether you believe they existed or not. They both are defining figures of Judaism, in particular here regarding the preference to live their faith independently and sovereignly, in some territory defined as theirs — in opposition to staying somewhere else and exerting pressure on their environment to convert.

    I wonder why you draw an equivalence between Moses’ followers and Jesus’ ones. Why would Jesus’ followers behave like the Jews?
    Jesus (actually, Saint Paul) not only dissociated from Judaism but the new faith gained momentum just when the old one faced a crucial moment: the Jewish peoplehood became about as abstract as the faith. Christians never had this nation/national dimension. Nations (or national leaders) adopted Christianity.

    The funny thing is that I am supporting Israel.

    Could you please tell why? How come?

    The spirit of most people here is highly inquisitive ;-) in the sense of toughly questioning each other’s opinions, phenomena, analyses… Controversy and contesting are served with every dish.
    It’s good for the neurones!

  130. entresminutos says:

    Sergio

    I know you apologized. I was just pointing examples of personal insults.

    And I don’t mind if the Spanish history is criticized, as long as it is done in context. Is #7 an example of this? Or it is just a misinformed attack on an entire nation?

    I see the difference between an insult to Spain, or the Spanish people, and an personal insult. But if you poke fun of my country with the intention of provoking me (as you admit in #44), then you are the one making it personal.

    I am tired of the duel, and the Hidalgo jokes. But in case you are not noticing it, I am the one being called naive, among many other things.

    What you see as an attempt to defend my country, an over defensive line, it is just a matter of different views on history. You say, for example, that “Its main job [of inquisition] was to harass the “marranos””
    And either you are wrong, or I am, but that is not what I have read about the Inquisition. They had many other tasks. I don’t defend the Inquisition, they did what they did, and it was horrible, but the role of the Spanish Inquisition, and the number of the people they killed, have been largely exaggerated. This is not denial, it is not the same as saying “the men never walked in the Moon”. This is something that historians are discovering now. I am just trying to put things in context.

    As long as we are using different frameworks, we are never going to agree on this.

    And it is true that the Inquisition persecuted and killed Jews until the XIX century. What I meant to say is that the great persecutions happened in the XVI century, and then it diminished, although it did not stop.

    On the connection you make between the expulsion of the Jews and present judeophobia, my point it is that I think it happened too long ago, and being true that it surely must have left prejudices in the collective consciousness, and made somehow fertile ground for antisemitism, this does not explain it all.

    “We” hate the English, and so did Franco, “we” hated them more than we hated the Jews (or as much), but people did not pointed fingers at them for the “Bloody Sunday”, the way they point at Israel. Had the TV been 24/7 saying that the English were monsters, and the Irish were innocent victims, showing the dead children (only the Irish ones) for a decade or two, I believe they could also have suffered the “Israel” effect.
    Of course, the question if this point is accepted, is why the media engaged the anti-Israeli propaganda, but not the anti-UK propaganda. It may be related to the fact that every country has friend and foes, but Israel, being a new state, has not been able to make many allies. And of course, the prejudice against the English is rooted in some countries (like Spain), but it is not in others, while the prejudice against the Jews is rooted in every western country.

  131. entresminutos says:

    E.G.

    I didn’t mean that the Jesus followers should behave like the Jews. I meant that Jesus followers don’t follow the example of their own prophet. If the Christians don’t behave like Jesus, why should the Jews behave like Moses?. I could have used other examples of followers following the word of their leaders only when it is convenient for them.

    The concept of leftist submission is interesting, and I agree. I also agree on the virtual killings, but we (Europe) are not living in the good old Stalin times. That does not mean that it can’t happen again. Quoting Bergman: “It’s like a serpent’s egg. Through the thin membranes, you can clearly discern the already perfect reptile”

    On my support of Israel, maybe I have wrongly express myself (again). Lost in translation. I do speak in favor of Israel among friends, in my blog, and Spanish sites. It’s not much, but it is all I can do.

  132. entresminutos says:

    incognito

    Zapatero is a clever kind of idiot. Have you seen “Being There”, starring Peter Sellers?. That kind of idiot. He has fooled many people, and not only in Spain. The Financial Times among others, praised him not so long ago.

    He defines himself as “red”, and now he is having a hard time with the public opinion, due to the economic policies he has to apply, forced by the EU. This policies are seen as “neoliberal” policies, and he has to make some winks to the left to keep his followers happy. The Flotilla Incident comes like a gift for him.

    Had the opportunity, I guess he would try to bring some Israeli authorities to the International Court of Justice. But he would ask what to do to Obama first

    Zapatero has no system of beliefs, apart for being “red”. He adapts himself to the Zeitgeist, and he is good at it. And he is perhaps the greatest traitor in Spanish history. He has betrayed his allies, the people that helped him to get to the presidency, he has backstabbed them all. He has recently achieved the greatest treason of all: he has betrayed himself.

  133. Sergio says:

    Entresminutos,

    Well, I agree totally with your assessment of Zapatero. Just perfect.

    Regarding #7, yes, that was a provocation for which I apologized. Nevertheless, it is interesting to see how nationalism if very much alive in Europe, notwithstanding some intellectual pronouncements of its death.

    As for the Inquisition, my info comes from the book “A pariah people” by Hyam Macobby which is from 1996, so maybe there are new developments about it. But can’t we agree that it was thought-police avant-la-lettre and it did killed lots of conversos? What’s the problem in facing that?

    I agree that christian Europe has a tradition of antisemitism, exactly *because* it is christian. And Spain has a pretty dark contribution; no it’s the only one, it doesn’t mean every single spaniard is antisemitic, but the cummulative historical record cannot be dismissed just like that.

  134. Michelle Schatzman says:

    Was off internet for a few days – somewhere high in the mountains, with only solar electricity. Discovering how this debate evolved, I’d like to say specifically to entresminutos: stay with us. I do not necessarily agree with all you say, but I like the turn of your mind.

    My son spent the academic year 2001-2002 in Barcelona, and went back there quite a few times. His spanish was good and got better, and he learnt some catalan. He came back with stories of antisemitism developed by the left, under the guise of antizionism.

    He also taught me that the famous “andalusian miracle of the coexistence of the three religions” hardly existed.

  135. incognito says:

    I dunno what’s going on that idiot Zapatero’s mind (and I couldn’t care less), but his moralizing (im)posture re. Israel is ridiculous.

    Politicians tend to do what they perceive to be popular.
    Not only anti-Israel today is very popular in general, but also in Spain due to its past AND an emerging muslim contingent which can be violent if not appeased. 3 EU FM’s just published an article in which they demand the lifting of the blockage “in order not to make their muslim contingent violent”.

    Why would Jesus’ followers behave like the Jews?
    Jesus (actually, Saint Paul) not only dissociated from Judaism but the new faith gained momentum just when the old one faced a crucial moment: the Jewish peoplehood became about as abstract as the faith. Christians never had this nation/national dimension. Nations (or national leaders) adopted Christianity.

    I need to correct you here: Jesus real followers were, like him jews and, to the extent that he existed, which is in serious doubt, his objective was to return jews to true judaism and to stop romanization and cooperation with the romans. He would not know from christianity if it bit him in the ass.

    Christianity was invented by a sexually repressed, epileptic Saul 30 years after the believed date of Jesus’s death, and had little to do with Jesus’s judaism. Indeed, he was rejected by Jesus’s followers
    in Palestine. Saul hijacked Jesus for his own purposes, based on various pagan religions (e.g. Mithras), hence his outright hatred of judaism at the root of christianity. And because of his trick of salvation without the inconveniences of judaism (e.g. circumcision) it was more attractive than judaism to the greek world due to its similarities to paganism.

    No wonder that christianity was anti-jewish

    To those interested in the subject I again refer to one of the best, if not the best book on the subject, THE MYTHMAKER by Maccobby.

    I meant that Jesus followers don’t follow the example of their own prophet. If the Christians don’t behave like Jesus, why should the Jews behave like Moses?

    It would have been much better if nobody followed anybody, let alone religious leaders who it’s not even clear existed.

    but we (Europe) are not living in the good old Stalin times.

    I was going to say that Europe has stalinistic aspects already and given enough time would get there, but I’m afraid sharia will prevent that.

    As to Zapatero, his profile is not unique and I’m familiar with it.

  136. entresminutos says:

    Michelle

    Thanks for the welcoming :D

    And yes, the “andalusian miracle of the coexistence of the three religions” is a Myth. I once heard a history professor say “How can you coexist with people that are doing a party while you are praying during the most sacred day for your religion?”.
    They lived in the same cities, but in different neighborhoods, and I don’t think they liked, nor trusted, each other.

    Another common misunderstanding is that they lived all peacefully in the Muslim zone, while the Christians Kings forbid and persecuted the Muslims and the Jews. There were Jews and Muslims in the Christian kingdoms, under similar conditions than the Christians who lived in the Muslim Kingdoms. The persecution started later (Catholic Kings Isabel and Fernando, late XV century).

  137. Sergio says:

    Incognito,

    Great post. Also, Maccobby poinst out that being basically other-wordly and non-political, Pauline christianity cleverly shifted the blame for Jesus’ murder from the real culprits, the Romans, to the Jews, via the Gospels, which are the main source of western antisemitism. I find it particularly striking that the main source of Pauline christianity is Hellenism and Gnosticism.

    Btw, another excellent book by Maccobby is “Antisemitism and modernity” (2004).

  138. entresminutos says:

    Sergio

    Well, sure the inquisition killed many “conversos”, and many “old Crhistians” too, and it was a thought police, among many other things. There is nothing to face, this are historical facts.

    But being Maccobby English , being and “old” historian, and being the book you have read focused on antisemitism, I guess he might have overlooked some aspects, and perhaps he used some old English sources, that may not be up to date. I really don’t know, I have not read it.

    When I say it has been exaggerated, I mean: How many people did they killed?.
    Using modern research, there are numbers commonly accepted. 3000-5000 persons. Does this numbers strike you?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition#Death_tolls

    And it functioned not only as a “faith” police, they also persecuted regular felonies.

    They only used torture in less than the 2% of cases.
    They killed in less than the %2 of the processes.
    How do you think the trials in the rest of the European countries were done?.In a much lighter, less painful, much more rightful way?
    Of course there were a lot of religious intolerance, and persecutions in Spain but, what was happening in Europe at the time?. Were the protestants any better? There were no persecutions in France? None in England? No one tortured but the Spanish Inquisition?

    I am not being oversensitive. It’s just to odd to keep hearing XVII anti Spanish propaganda, old memes, now that the Spanish Empire is long gone. And you are not the only one perpetuating it. Most of the people in Spain has the same misconception.

  139. Sergio says:

    Entreminutos,

    Sorru, what “meme” am I perpetuating? I mentioned limpieza de sangre, which was a fact, a spanish invention, like it or not, and it has direct bearing on the persecution of jews. I mentioned the Inquisition, a
    murderous thought-police that killed and burned many conversos and jews. Someone else mentioned Francos sympathies with arab nations and the whole legacy of fascism. These are not “memes”, these are historical facts which shows a spanish tradition of antisemitism. Its manifestations come and go, but the whole point is that it’s hard to avoid a connection with the present obssession with jews. All that seems reasonable and you agree with basically all of it. So, I am not perpetuating any falsification or meme, though surely I am not a professional historian, so I can be wrong in many details.

  140. Daniel Bielak says:

    entresminutos,

    you wrote,

    “I am not being oversensitive. It’s just to odd to keep hearing XVII anti Spanish propaganda, old memes, now that the Spanish Empire is long gone.”

    Please consider the current situation in the world – the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion”-Jewish-conspiracy-theory-based, orthodox-original-Islam-based, genocidally anti-Jewish, modern Islamic-Supremacist political movement – the current state of the culture European societies – the situation that Jewish people have been in for thousands of years – the situation that the country of the Jewish people, Israel, has been in since several decades before it was voted a country on the United Nations in 1948 – the situation that Israel is in currently – the situation that Jewish people are in currently.

    I know you mean well, but you just have no idea – of what it is like to be Jewish – of what the situation is for those of us who are Jewish – and especially for those of us who are Jewish who are not delusional.

    Very many Jewish people (including, in the past, myself) confess to, and accuse other Jewish people of, fictitious crimes of which Jewish people are falsely accused by non-Jewish people who are physically – murdereously – indetendely genocidally – attacking Jewish people.

    The leaders of almost every anti-Jewish religious and political movement in Western society have been Jewish – in particular Christianity, Marxism, and anti-country-of-the-Jewish-people-ism (“Anti-Zionism”).

    I have said the following to family members – only Jewish people are Jewish people – don’t expect non-Jewish people to act like Jewish people – don’t expect non-Jewish people to reciprocate, with understanding and matching self-confession, the unmindful, unbeneficial, over-empathy-based, Stockholm-Syndrome-based, emotionally-needy, mindset, and resulting actions, of Jewish people.

    Non-Jewish people, in general, and especially European and Arab people, unlike non-Jewish people, in general, will, at the slightest hint of blame directed towards themselves, either attack their accusers, or will in circumstances such as exist now, will blame the people who they have falsely accused, hated, tortured, mass-murdered, persecuted, oppressed, and treated with intransigent contempt for several thousand years, Jewish people.

    Everyone is responsible for one’s own actions.

    I know that my writing the things that I wrote in this comment may not be beneficial and may be harmful and I know that it may be wrong of me to write them. I apologize for venting in this way to you, but I hope that you can understand the situation that I am in.

    I appreciate your support. I am not attacking you personally, I am distressed.

  141. entresminutos says:

    Sergio

    The devil is in the details

  142. Daniel Bielak says:

    I am hurt, frustrated, vexed, and enraged by the situation that Jewish people are in, and have been in for thousands of years. I am, at this point, mostly enraged – and, to a very large degree, enraged about the way that Jewish people have not only allowed, and are allowing, themselves to be in this situation, but about the way that some, and relatively very many, Jewish people actively, and very influentially, join the non-Jewish attackers of the Jewish people in viciously attacking the Jewish people.

    Jewish people need to develop confidence in themselves.

    Jewish people need to develop mindfulness and discernment.

    The understanding and compassion of people who are not Jewish – the understanding of the situation that Jewish people are in, and the compassion for Jewish people, that is had by some people who are not Jewish – is healing to me and comforting to me and supporting for me.

  143. incognito says:

    And yes, the “andalusian miracle of the coexistence of the three religions” is a Myth.

    You mean like the one about the lion living with the sheep in the same cage; and when people asked the zoo how did they do it they said “Simple, we replace the sheep daily”.

    Also, Maccobby poinst out that being basically other-wordly and non-political

    Perhaps it would have continued that way but for Constantine’s politicizing it for his own purposes. That’s when christianity started resembling islam.

    As to spanish anti-semitism that never went away and took many forms, that’s true of Europe in general. Nothing special about Spain.

    As to delusional jews, here’s an article about them who wants them to act on their delusions instead of despairing that nobody takes them seriously:

    Iranian Speaker Larijani plans to reach Gaza-Israel border Saturday
    http://www.debka.com/article/8848

    Incidentally, it confirms my argument about them being sore losers.

  144. incognito says:

    Oops, wrong link:

    The Sad State of Israeli Radicalism
    By Assaf Sagiv
    http://www.azure.org.il/article.php?id=538

  145. entresminutos says:

    Daniel

    Of course, I know the “Protocols” propaganda, and the damage that it has done, and it is still doing. I can not begin to imagine how it must feel like to be hated by so many people, to be attacked in such way.

    This thing I am talking about, this controversy over the Inquisition, has no emotional meaning to me. I am talking about it just to make clear some points, given the fact that we are talking about the Spanish history. They are my ancestors, both the Inquisitors and the Spanish Jews, but I do not knew them, and I don’t relate to them. Or I relate to them as much as I relate to the Romans who conquered Spain long time ago.

    I am sorry if anything I have said may have made you feel bad. As I get deeper in the debate, I tend to forget that as I talk about persecutions in a theoretic way, the word persecution may not have the same emotional charge for some of you that it does for me, given the fact that I have never been persecuted.

  146. entresminutos says:

    Incognito

    “As to spanish anti-semitism that never went away and took many forms, that’s true of Europe in general. Nothing special about Spain.”

    This is kind of what I have been trying to say all along. Sometimes it remains in a latent form, like a virus, waiting for the proper environment conditions to infect. As the virus, it has the ability to adapt trough mutations. Now it has been awoken, again.

  147. Daniel Bielak says:

    I think that my previous last comments may not be – may not have been – beneficial. I apologize if my last previous messages are not – were not – beneficial.

    What is the case is the following.

    I appeciate very much the support of non-Jewish people for Jewish people and, as the current main part of that support, for the country of the Jewish people.

    Jewish people need to start having confidence in themselves and need to start firmly and clearly and constantly telling the world the factual past 90 year history of the current situation.

    The world runs on consensus. Consensus is attained by communication.

    Israel needs, more than it needs anything else, Jewish people to honestly, accurately, firmly, and clearly – effectively – defend Israel against the perverse obscene false historical narrative about the situation and against the constant torrent of obscene perverse lying false accusations against Israel. Israel needs, more than it needs anything else, Jewish people to defend Israel in that way by honestly, accurately, clearly, and firmly – effectively – verbally attacking the verbal and physical attackers of Israel – to do so by honestly, accurately, firmly, and clearly – effectively – communicating the factual past 90 year history of the situation and current reality of the situation.

    “Why has Israel disarmed itself in the battle for world opinion?”, by Charles Moore
    Islamist fanatics were allowed to use the ‘humanitarian’ flotilla as a weapon, says Charles Moore.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/charlesmoore/7803919/Why-has-Israel-disarmed-itself-in-the-battle-for-world-opinion.html

  148. Daniel Bielak says:

    entresminutos,

    Thank you for your understanding and kindness. I appreciate your understanding and kindness very much.

    I don’t want to make you feel like you are walking on eggshells.

    I apologize for, what I think was, my communicating unbeneficial communication – I apologize for what I think was my being unmindful and my thinking unbeneficially and my communicating unbeneficially.

    Knowing, as I do now, that you understand, in general, the situation that Jewish people are in and that you feel kindness toward Jewish people, is all that really matters to me – it is soothing to me and comforting to me and relieving to me and supporting for me.

  149. Daniel Bielak says:

    E.G.,

    Thank you for correcting me earlier.

  150. incognito says:

    This is kind of what I have been trying to say all along. Sometimes it remains in a latent form, like a virus, waiting for the proper environment conditions to infect. As the virus, it has the ability to adapt trough mutations. Now it has been awoken, again.

    It’s scapegoating, which flourishes during crises, when people are desperate to assign blame. That’s what happens now to the west and the jews are professional scapegoats.

  151. E.G. says:

    incognito,

    Thanks a lot for Assaf Sagiv’s Azure article!
    At last it’s been translated from Hebrew. I whole-heartedly recommend it — it’s long, but worth it.

  152. E.G. says:

    entresminutos,

    You didn’t really answer my question about supporting Israel. What made/makes you support?

    My point about Moses and Jesus/St. Paul was that Judaism and Christianity are different, including the on the “following” feature: that the first follow doesn’t imply the second do the same, or vice versa. There is no basis for transposing the behaviours from one religion to the other.

    The Spanish Middle-ages case has some specificities vis-à-vis other European countries, if only for the long Moslem occupation. It may explain some of the virulence of the Catholic actions.
    But I also think the Inquisition and anti-Semitism elsewhere were not “nicer”.

    #146 – virus – spot on.

    Michelle has been more explicit than me ;-)

  153. entresminutos says:

    E.G.

    Time ago, when asked about the conflict in Middle East, I used to say that every side had their reasons, both were doing wrong things, and I tried to understand both sides. I used to think that the only solution to the conflict would be understanding, peace and some kind of agreement that could satisfy both.

    I discovered later that I was being naive, first Fatah, and later Hamas and Hizbulla, proved that they had no intention to make agreements, they wanted all or nothing.

    I started to read about the history of Israel, and I found out how many misconceptions were commonly accepted, like “who started the war in 1948″. Things that I see so obvious now, but I didn’t knew back then, just because I had accepted the mainstream line of thought.

    Later on, during Operation Lead Cast, I started to realize how antisemitic had the Spanish left become, how viciously they attacked Israel, how unbalanced it was the critique, the media, this blood libel child eaters picture of the Israeli they gave, and I decided I would be neutral no more.

  154. E.G. says:

    entresminutos,

    Gracias por la respuesta.
    That’s what I call “a teachable moment”.

  155. incognito says:

    Thanks a lot for Assaf Sagiv’s Azure article!
    At last it’s been translated from Hebrew. I whole-heartedly recommend it — it’s long, but worth it.

    Do you agree with his conclusion?

    My point about Moses and Jesus/St. Paul was that Judaism and Christianity are different,

    Well, if they weren’t there would be only judaism, not 2 religions, no?

    #146 – virus – spot on.
    Michelle has been more explicit than me ;-)

    Steyn has an excellent take on it, though not new to us, and he certainly seems to be a “pessimist” like me.
    But still brilliant.

    http://www.steynonline.com/content/view/3397/26/

    There are no good options for Israel. These days, Europeans pay even less lip service to the “two-state solution” than Hamas does. The default position is that the creation of the Zionist Entity was an error and an historical injustice, and thus it has to be corrected one way or the other. If — when — the mullahs drop the big one on Tel Aviv, the BBC wallahs will momentarily drop the sneers for a more-in-sorrow-than-in-anger shtick about how, tragic as it is, it brings to a close an unfortunate chapter in Middle Eastern history.

    There is a kind of logic about this. As paradoxical as it sounds, Muslims have been far greater beneficiaries of Holocaust guilt than the Jews. In a nutshell, the Holocaust enabled the Islamization of Europe. Without post-war guilt, and the revulsion against nationalism, and the embrace of multiculturalism and mass immigration, the Continent would never have entertained for a moment the construction of mosques from Dublin to Dusseldorf and the accommodation of Muslim sensitivities on everything from British nursing uniforms to Brussels police doughnut consumption during Ramadan. Holocaust guilt is a cornerstone of the Muslim Europe arising before our eyes. The only minority that can’t leverage the Shoah these days is the actual target. It is disheartening to see Elie Wiesel, in Toronto the other day, calling for Holocaust denial to be made a crime throughout the world (as it already is in many European countries). He so doesn’t get it. The greater risk to Jews is not that the world will “forget” the murder of 6 million people but that it has appropriated the crime for its own purposes. In Europe, the ever more extravagant Holocaust Memorial Day observances have taken on the character of America’s gay-pride parades with their endlessly proliferating subcategories of celebrants. As Anthony Lipmann, the son of an Auschwitz survivor, wrote in The Spectator five years ago: “When on 27 January I take my mother’s arm — tattoo number A-25466 — I will think not just of the crematoria and the cattle trucks but of Darfur, Rwanda, Zimbabwe, Jenin, Fallujah.”

    Jenin? Ah, well, that was the “massacre” before the “massacre in the Med.”

  156. incognito says:

    entreminutos,

    Re #153: Good for you.

    Your initial position was nonrational: you had no knowledge and your perspective was cultural/ideological (multiculti). That’s the state of knowledge of most westerners about the ME and the conflicts. They had no direct experience with or self-interest in the issues and no ability to believe the arab/jihadist culture.

    It was only when you acquired the knowledge and applied reason that you became rational.

    You may want to address your comment to Ray who refuses to accept that learning, education, evidence can make a difference. If he says that you did not have a strong identity on this, but then I’ll ask how come, given that his theory says that’s the one and only basis for behavior and there can be no cognitive correction to it.

  157. incognito says:

    Incidentally, they now have experience with the jihadists and the response is only too predictable in the absence of cognitive dimensions: fear, be it conscious or not.

    Steyn claims it is conscious and to many it probably is.
    But I suspect that there is a lot of ignorance and inability to reason.

  158. E.G. says:

    incognito,

    I read Sagiv’s paper in Hebrew some time ago, I’m not sure I recall his conclusion (I retained his analysis).

    It was entreminutos who spoke of a virus.
    I had an exchange with Michelle on another thread where the viral mutation and spreading analogy was discussed…

    I think we can use our respective time better and more efficiently than discuss Ray’s “emotional identity belief identitarian believable emotion” assertions. If entreminutos insists a bit, he’ll get called something like a cognitive web warrior on a long ad-hominem diatribe.

    I agree about the inability to reason; For some it may be fear, others may “simply” be conditioned to take a “neutral” posture. PC does teach/preach one should not be judgemental… taking sides is not being fair (except if one sides with the postulated weak, of course).

    but that it has appropriated the crime for its own purposes.
    I’d say the crime has been hijacked and disoriented and redirected etc.
    But Steyn is right. Sadly right.
    The New Church is manipulating guilt, like the old one did.

  159. E.G. says:

    Incognito,

    I went back to Sagiv’s paper.
    I agree with his conclusion, although I don’t think it’s complete. I too see the secludedness and exclusiveness (in all meanings of this last term) in the attitude.
    That’s one source to my “insight” about the cleanliness obsession: when you want to stay pure, you don’t mix or get in touch with what you consider impure. Or maybe you do only when you’ve made sure to come out of it uncontaminated… like by putting a distance or a barrier between yourself and the infected. You preach from a Cathedra, on some medium, in/as part of a group… And you keep reminding the impure audience that you’re on a different level.

  160. E.G. says:

    And it’s also like wearing a Burqa+Niqab+gloves.

  161. entresminutos says:

    Incongnito

    Three of the members of the Flotilla were Spanish. One of them, Manuel Tapial, it’s an interesting example.

    He is the Mecca Cola distributor in Spain, the extreme left with kefiya around the neck kind of guy.

    In an article he wrote few year ago for an Spanish pro Arab site, he says (in my translation):

    “There are 80 million Arabs in Europe. [...] Why do we as a State support a State like Israel, that is at constant war with the Arab world. How many 9/11 or 3/11 [the bombings in Madrid] do we need? It looks like the blindness of our politicians are putting all of us in danger, the warmongers and the pacifists”

    http://www.nodo50.org/csca/agenda09/palestina/arti469.html

    I understand he means himself when he says pacifists.

  162. incognito says:

    I’m not sure I recall his conclusion (I retained his analysis).

    That’s significant!

    He seems to be saying that it’s a pity that the radical left is despairing and retreating, but rather should get involved and fight for its views. (Apparently there is not enough action against Israel).

    I think we can use our respective time better and more efficiently than discuss Ray’s “emotional identity belief identitarian believable emotion” assertions. If entreminutos insists a bit, he’ll get called something like a cognitive web warrior on a long ad-hominem diatribe.

    Agreed, of course, as you could see from my last response to him. I made my comments after somebody called his comments brilliant and I wanted to make sure readers don’t miss the flaws.

    PC does teach/preach one should not be judgemental… taking sides is not being fair (except if one sides with the postulated weak, of course).

    IOW, one should suspend one’s most important faculty; is there any wonder about the consequences?

    Re: the weak: I figured this out when I read Chomsky’s answer to the question what motivates him is such a fighter against the US: while in school he once chickened out when bullies tormented a colleague; he initially stood next to him, then left in fear. After that he promised himself he will always stay with the weak against the strong.

    IOW, he does not take positions on the substance, but on who he perceives is the weak. And, of course, weakness can be faked with mere grievances and complaints, something which the arabs are expert at and the west is gullible to.

    The New Church is manipulating guilt, like the old one did.

    A church must exploit or outright create guilt — that’s one of the pillars of its effectiveness.

    You preach from a Cathedra, on some medium, in/as part of a group…

    Sort of like Obama’s.
    pacifists.

  163. incognito says:

    I understand he means himself when he says pacifists.

    He certainly is no pacifist towards Israel.

    Anyway, he’s a dime a dozen these days. They are simply riding a wave not different than the one the Nazis rode.

    And he just expresses what EU foreign ministers have just said explicitly: they are afraid of their muslim fifth column and they hope those will be kind to them when they take over.

  164. E.G. says:

    entresminutos,

    Tapial seems to confuse Moslems and Arabs and inflate the number (of the first).

  165. E.G. says:

    incognito,

    He seems to be saying that it’s a pity that the radical left is despairing and retreating, but rather should get involved and fight for its views. (Apparently there is not enough action against Israel).

    That’s not my understanding.
    The lamenting, solitary, posture he describes is pitiful, in his (and my) eyes. The valourous chaps are bold in words, or in some protected form of action, only. Beyond their exasperated, wailing tone, there’s their hard-to-ignore lack of influence, an impotence that they can only deplore.
    Sagiv surely doesn’t rejoice about the incapacitated state. He merely observes it.
    And he doesn’t mention that this lack of influence “inside” is the main reason for the drive to seek influence from “outside” (calls for BDS, US pressure…)

  166. entresminutos says:

    incognito

    #156

    I had to go and check the Ray vs incognito debate.

    Being this debate out of my reach (I am no expert in psychology), as you point at me as an example of your thesis, I must say something.

    My identity is built around rationalism, and it has always been as far as I remember. I had no religious education, and the people I looked up to since I was a kid were people like Einstein or Carl Sagan. I discovered the scientific method then, and it was the big thing for me. The “If you prove me wrong, I will change my mind” motto became the core of my system. Now I am a Physicist, and all this years of training have made me even more rationalist.

    Changing my mind about Israel does not challenge much my identity, because the core of my identity stills the same.

  167. incognito says:

    My identity is built around rationalism, and it has always been as far as I remember.

    Ray would jump on your formulation, which he would claim confirms his argument; but because it purports to explain everything it explains nothing.

    Think about it: it means that fundamentally there is no difference between a rationalist and a jihadist/leftist : both are guided by their strong identities. Is that satisfactory as an explanation of what’s going on?

    Changing my mind about Israel does not challenge much my identity, because the core of my identity stills the same.

    The question is what led you to rationality. The fact that you lack an indoctrination e.g. religious certainly helped. To be influenced by Einstein or Sagan you had to read them (acquisition of some knowledge and ability to reason). I suspect your education had something to do with it, including that of a natural scientist.

    And the fact is that you started with one view and ended up changing it based on evidence and reason, only a rare exception for non-rational/emotional actors. That’s a critical difference which Ray’s explanation glosses over.

    I agree that proper education is a necessary but often insufficient condition for rational behavior. What I don’t agree is that it cannot possibly have this effect. Darwin and education is the best we’ve got.

  168. entresminutos says:

    Incognito

    I didn’t read Sagan, I was too young then. But I followed the “Cosmos” series on TV. My father loved this series, and we watched it together. Much better than “American Idol”, don’t you think?

    I believe in the power of education, but there is a problem with the values of our societies that can not be overlooked. In the 50s, Einstein was an admired person, in the 60s children wanted to be scientists or astronauts. Children always want to be like the admired people of the time. Now it seems like Lady Gaga is much more important than any filthy scientist. Children wants to be football players and MTV divas.

    The Age of Enlightenment gave us a big push, but the inertia does not last forever.

  169. Sergio says:

    Hey, entresminutos, I am a physicist too, worked in field theory but then changed to mathematics (yes, an unforgivable treason).

    A bit off topic (sorry in advance): a post at Elder of Zyon claimed that the Peel’s comission partition proposal (1937) was rejected by the World Jewish Congress. Is that right? I thought I’ve read in Benny Morris’ last book that it had been accepted…Elyahu?

  170. Michelle Schatzman says:

    Sergio, entresminutos, I’m a mathematician (and I write under my real name). I never was good in physics, but being an applied mathematician, I talk professionnally to non-mathematicians (or rather used to, because my health is not good).

    I also believe that we need non-hard-science knowledge, though i am aware that it is much more difficult to validate.

  171. incognito says:

    But I followed the “Cosmos” series on TV. My father loved this series, and we watched it together. Much better than “American Idol”, don’t you think?

    Well, TV is riskier than a book, but it’s also a means for acquiring knowledge and ability to reason, as it was in this case.

    I believe in the power of education, but there is a problem with the values of our societies that can not be overlooked.

    We discussed this topic to death while you were not here, so you’re missing some points.

    1st, my concept of education is fundamentally different than what today passes for education and I call schooling.

    2nd, of course, such education would not contain just science, but much more which would address the values you refer to.

    But 3rd, independent critical thinking and ability to reason are a necessary if insufficient pre-condition for everything else. Without that I can feed you anything and you have no means to assess it. Logic and
    the scientific method must be included.

    Now it seems like Lady Gaga is much more important than any filthy scientist. Children wants to be football players and MTV divas.

    But that’s exactly my point: true education has collapsed. The schooling that’s been offered for the last 10-20 years is at best training for employment (not always effective even for that) and at worst indoctrination. It expressly avoids instilling in people the ability to think independently and critically and to insist on evidence in order to produce gullibility, manipulation, exploitation and conformity. When they are busy with Gaga and MTV, they are distracted from, for example, institutional corruption and the fact that their country is no longer a democracy but a kleptocracy.

    The Age of Enlightenment gave us a big push, but the inertia does not last forever.

    Not if you discard the education that derived from enlightenment.

  172. incognito says:

    I also believe that we need non-hard-science knowledge, though i am aware that it is much more difficult to validate.

    But of course. Hence my point that independent critical thinking and ability to reason as a pre-condition. Whate else would enable you to distinguish between what can and cannot be validated and how to assess each as necessary?

  173. incognito says:

    Just as I have been arguing for years, goodbye America.
    MUST READ by Lee Smith, one of the most astute analysts of the ME and US policy. Read it all.

    Extreme Makeover
    Obama’s Middle East policy may soon shift away from moderates in favor of extremists
    By Lee Smith
    http://www.tabletmag.com/news-and-politics/36244/extreme-makeover/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=extreme-makeover


    This is news: Moderate Muslims, the darlings of the George W. Bush Administration’s foreign policy, don’t matter, or so Obama has concluded. Ever since he was on the campaign trail Obama has promised to reach out to Iran and Syria, state sponsors of terror and Hezbollah’s patrons, and now the reason why is clear: because he believes that it’s Middle East extremists who call the shots. Someday soon, the Obama Administration is going to reach out to Hezbollah, as well as other terrorist organizations, in Afghanistan, Gaza, and elsewhere in the Muslim world.

    In any case, Obama sees, correctly, that the real choice isn’t between moderates and extremists, but between cutting a deal with the extremists or making war against them. The fact is that a war against all the extremists in the Muslim world—Sunni and Shia, from the Persian Gulf to Western North Africa—is effectively a war against Islam. And a decades-long war of civilizations is not a war that an economically damaged United States can afford to wage. We have neither the money, nor the manpower, nor the will. A total war of the kind that appears to be on offer would change U.S. society in ways that are unimaginable and would make the Bush years look like an idyllic holiday. Our few remaining allies—with the exception of Israel—would no longer wish to fight beside us and would make deals of their own, if they already haven’t.

    So, instead, we’re going to bargain with the actors who have the final say over war and peace: the extremists.

    Looking back to the origins of the United States’ blue-water navy is a reminder that the founding fathers judged that fighting, rather than paying tribute, was what best suited the character of the American people. And there’s little doubt that U.S. citizens will again rebel against policymakers who have chosen appeasement, especially since the extremists will negotiate by killing more of us, in the streets of U.S. cities as well as in Afghanistan and Iraq. It is unclear whether the political damage that the incumbent will suffer because his countrymen are dying is sufficient to change his thinking, which is that it is more cost efficient for a weakened United States to buy off extremists than it is to run the rest of the world at the end of a gun.

    But negotiating with extremists will look like war, just that only one side will be fighting while the other side—the United States—tries to stop the bloodshed by petitioning the extremists to accept more ransom. The way Obama sees it, the upside is that it will not be a war without end, like the war on terror. All the extremists in the Muslim world want is money and the power that will flow their way as the consequence of the U.S. withdrawal from the Persian Gulf. The faster the United States leaves, the cheaper the cost. This is why the Jewish state is isolated today and why Washington stands with her only reluctantly: Distancing ourselves from Israel is part of the deal we are preparing to strike.

  174. incognito says:

    And here’s another indicator:

    Dodging the Anti-Semitism Bullet
    http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/06/dodging_the_antisemitism_bulle.html

    And since this is now rampant in the whole west, where do you think it leads?

    The problem is there’s nobody left without it, which indicates where the whole world is going.

  175. incognito says:

    Whom Obama intends to appease:

    Umbilically yours, says Nasrallah to Iran
    Tony Badran
    http://www.nowlebanon.com/NewsArticleDetails.aspx?ID=177522

  176. incognito says:

    Flotilla Thriller
    J. E. Dyer
    http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/j-e-dyer/314011

    Wanna bet on the western response?

  177. incognito says:

    Heh, heh:

    National Convention of Anti-Semitic Jews to Take Place in Detroit
    http://www.viciousbabushka.com/2010/06/national-convention-of-antisemitic-jews-to-take-place-in-detroit.html

  178. incognito says:

    Abbas urges Hamas to sign reconciliation deal
    http://www.france24.com/en/20100615-abbas-urges-hamas-sign-reconciliation-deal

    He’s desperate and he knows why: Why should they sign when the US is with them and not with Abbas?

  179. incognito says:

    e.g.,

    Spineless or not?

    Israel expected to agree to ease Gaza blockade
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/16/israel-agreement-likely-gaza-blockade

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