Public Secrets and Conspiracies of Silence: How French media reported riots taking place in Paris, on June 20th

The following is a report “from the field” (i.e., the MSNM wars), by Michelle Schatzman about the coverage of a riot in the troubled streets of Paris itself (Zones Urbaines Sensibles – ZUS) of Paris. It illustrates the dynamics of a society in the process of decomposition, and probably sheds more light on the decline and fall of the Roman Empire than many ancient texts. What we see at work is the presence of gang culture of territorial expansion and confrontation – the Arabs and their sub-Saharan black allies – operating in an area supposedly (and previously) governed by the rule of law. In the case of the Roman Empire, it was imperial law, in 20th century France, it was democratic (isonomic) law.

The open aggression of the Arab/African street in France goes back to the last decade of the 20th century, but has become much more prominent since the first riots/demonstrations of the new millennium, those of October 6, 2000 in Paris.

This phenomenon of Muslim aggression on a civic level, which reached a momentary paroxysm in the riots of 2005, is perhaps the single most pervasive evidence that Muslims populations in Europe are grabbing power both by street violence and by taking over streets for prayer and (in practice) policing them as part of “their (Islamic) turf.” The same police-gang entente against citizens marked for dhimmitude seems to operate in England as well.

The story at Belleville seems to indicate that a) the cops are, as policy, protecting the Muslims from the law, and b) the news media does not know how to talk about this: it will name the “Chinese” (even when they’re lumping together the folks from far-east Asia), but not the Muslims or the sub-Saharan African street gangs. In the end they end up doing the same thing the police do – cover for the aggressors.

The parallels with what probably happened at the fall of Rome are startling.

A demonstration by 8500 people, mostly from far-eastern origin, took place yesterday afternoon in Belleville, an area in the north-east of Paris.

This demonstration was organized by franco-chinese associations, and motivated by insécurité, i.e. a high level of crime, directed mainly against Chinese-looking people in the Belleville area, where this population is now residing in significant numbers. There have been several waves of immigration to France from the Far-East. The Belleville immigrants have been coming from China in the last ten years. The main other two waves are the wave which arrived in the seventies from Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam, at the time of the boat people, and the wave of the nineties.

The demonstration started quietly and ended in riots between some demonstrators, some non-demonstrators and the police. Eventually, the quiet was restored around 10 pm. So, we got reports in the three most important national newspapers : Libération, Le Figaro and Le Monde. In fact, Le Monde was content with a commented diaporama.

The three articles were based on AFP (Agence France-Presse) reporting and its pictures.

These sources are remarkably non informative. The Libération’s original posting has been changed, with no mention of the time of the change. For instance, the Libération original title was “Riots between communities in Belleville.” But, it has been changed to “Riots in Belleville.” What was remarkable in the Libération article, was that they mentioned one (ethnic) community, the Chinese (who often acquired french citizenship), but they never mentioned any other community.

A later article in Libération gives more information. So, let us look at how the Le Figaro article presented the reasons for the initial demonstration:

    “Nous nous sommes décidés à descendre dans la rue après une agression lors d’un banquet de mariage à Belleville au début du mois”, a dit Huong Tan, un porte-parole du collectif, inquiet que la situation ne dégénère “si les autorités ne réagissent pas”. Car pour la première fois, explique-t-il, “quelqu’un de la communauté a répondu à la violence par la violence. Nous ne voulons pas que ça se reproduise”. “Les agresseurs sont souvent des groupes de jeunes qui habitent ici”, affirme-t-il.

    “We resolved to demonstrate in the street after an aggression in a wedding feast at the beginning of the month,” said Huong Tan, one of the speakers for the group of organizing associations, who fears things may get worse “if the public authorities do not move”. It was the first time, he explains, that “someone from the community answered violence with violence. We do not want this to happen another time.” “The aggressors are often groups of young people who live here”, he claims.

It would be good to know if Tan actually named the “groupes de jeunes” and the reporter left it out.

Given the obvious layers of unspoken detail (including, obviously, the identity of the “groupes de jeunes”), I read the (many) talk-backs and here is the story, as I got it from them, the online article and a bit of foraging on the web.

The people from China who live in the Belleville area have suffered many aggressions, mainly by thieves, even in broad daylight and in busy streets. As their tradition is to carry cash with them, and pure gold or jade jewels, they become an easy prey. Many of them speak little or no French, and some of them are not legal residents, so that they do not complain to the police.

There was a wedding banquet on June 1st, where the custom is to bring money as wedding gifts. One of these “youth groups” stood at the door and would not let guests in unless they gave up all their money. But one guest, Mr Zhong, a former soldier in the French foreign legion, had a weapon. He fired twice in the air, and twice at one of the perpetrators, who was wounded in the leg and in the buttocks. Zhong was arrested by the French police. The source is The People’s Daily.

The Chinese represent a population that can swing either way: when it’s civic rules they can play; when it’s gang rules, they also can play. The People’s Daily (unlike the Israeli government), has no hesitation getting “our” side out.

There is also a Chinese forum in French, where the aggressors are clearly characterized as “Arabs and Blacks”. Mr Zhong is still in jail, but it seems that the thieves are out, and that many people have been threatened since June 1st, or severely beaten. Observe also that “Chine Nouvelle” is the Chinese government agency.

The police action discourages resistance to Arab aggression and encourages that same aggression. The lesson of the early release of the “Arabs and Blacks” is an invitation to retaliation, which clearly happened.

My guess is that the police have been “bought off” by a promise on the part of the “youths” not to riot, thus turning that threat (and beyond it, the threat of suicide bombings), into a carte blanche as long as their actions stay under the radar. The Chinese, in objecting, were bringing it on the radar, and by the logic of the police-youth entente, that’s a provocation.

So, now, the demonstration. It seems that a group of four people (Arabs or Blacks) entered the demonstration, which was initially quiet, and stole the handbag of a Chinese woman.

This is standard operating procedure for these groups when dealing with “demonstrations.” Stand along the sides and look for a weak spot, then attack.

Then, about fifty demonstrators ran after the group of robbers, caught one of them and delivered him to the police, who did not arrest him, and started to hit the fifty demonstrators.

This is scary. This deserves an inquiry from a government intent on maintaining order.

Then the riots began, and three demonstrators were arrested. There were three parties in the riots : the Chinese, the Arabs and Blacks, and the police. At some point, the police left the ground to the first two groups : a few dozens of Chinese and fewer Arabs and Blacks. Eventually, the police came back with enough force and the quiet was restored.

I believe that this demonstration lacked an inside protection. My leftist and union maid days taught me that you don’t demonstrate without some kind of security body, which has two tasks : protect the demonstrators from enemies who could try to act aggressively against the demonstrators, and rein in the energies of people who could become violent, in contradiction to the official aims of the demonstration.

It is plain that the Chinese are no angels: they are known for being quite discrete, well behaving, and raising children who do well in school. However, the influence of the chinese government and the chinese mafias is significant, and the industry of illegal border crossing pays itself by imposing a number of years of slavery to the fortunate arrivals.

What is impressive is that :

  • the three newspapers use the same AFP source
  • they never say clearly what seems to have been the cause of the demonstration or the reason why it became violent
  • they call “Chinese” people who could have come as well from Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia or China itself; this is an ethnic description. But they shy away from the ethnic description of the aggressors and originators of insecurity denounced by the demonstration
  • they say nothing bad about the police, which seem to have acted against republican rules. French law says that any citizen can arrest the author of an illegal act, if he sees the act being committed, and it is his or her duty to do so, in case of possible bodily harm.

Whenever honor-shame rules assert themselves in civil society, the forces are badly matched unless the police is firm. In cases where the aggressors operate with impunity (essentially the situation in France), the pressure on civic communities will be either to get tribal (i.e., self-help justice), or to back off (which is what most français de souche are doing).

In this sense, it’s similar to the fall of the Roman Empire: tribal honor-shame, gang behavior coarsens the cultural scene and eventually brings down the rule of law as the areas where imperial writ runs retreat.

The parallel goes further. In the “experiment that got a little out of hand,” the Romans “invited” in the Germanic tribes and allowed them a legal advantage (a Frank or a Visigoths wergeld [manprice] was double that of a Roman. Similarly, the unofficial acceptance of Sharia puts the Muslim community at a tactical advantage in the daily conflicts.

This is how a civilization dies.

231 Responses to Public Secrets and Conspiracies of Silence: How French media reported riots taking place in Paris, on June 20th

  1. nelson says:

    This is the way the world ends
    This is the way the world ends
    This is the way the world ends
    Not with a bang, but a whimper..

  2. E.G. says:

    Correction: The riot took place in Paris (20th arrondissement), not the suburbs.

    Addition: ex-Pres Chirac’s adopted daughter (of Vietnamese descent) was at the rally.
    http://www.liberation.fr/societe/0101642673-belleville-des-voyous-ont-attaque-les-manifestants-selon-la-fille-adoptive-des-chirac

    And Libération did end up saying something:

    Les premiers incidents interviennent peu après le vol, vers 17 h 35, entre une cinquantaine de jeunes manifestants et de jeunes extérieurs au cortège, d’origine maghrébine et africaine.

    http://www.liberation.fr/societe/0101642660-que-s-est-il-passe-hier-a-belleville

    The “funniest” thing is that there is talk about some obscure communities (Chinese+other E.Asians; “youths”) which are definitely not something anchored in reality.

  3. entresminutos says:

    This video is a better example

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA0kkhTkZoI

  4. E.G. says:

    entresminutos,

    O/T (should be on the old Spanish thread)
    http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/JewishNews/Article.aspx?id=178676
    And there’s Pilar Rahola too…

  5. Lorenz Gude says:

    I know it is a figure of speech but I burst out laughing when I read “The Chinese are not angels…” No they are just human beings: a mixture of good and bad like other normal human beings. As an American in touch with my ‘inner Jacksonian’ I thought it was eminently fair of the Chinese gentleman to fire a couple of shots in the air before shooting the robber in the ass.

  6. E.G. says:

    RL:

    Whenever honor-shame rules assert themselves in civil society, the forces are badly matched unless the police is firm. In cases where the aggressors operate with impunity (essentially the situation in France), the pressure on civic communities will be either to get tribal (i.e., self-help justice), or to back off (which is what most français de souche are doing).

    Well, this is very delicate.
    If most French-French back off and feel helpless (except the loonies who think the oppressors are still too oppressive), the exasperation and feeling of abandon are being manipulated by not-very-respectable movements and parties.
    For example, I don’t know exactly who came up with the idea to have a massive “Aperitif (alcohol) and (pork) sausage” street party on a Friday afternoon, right where the street prayers have become customary. It’s been canceled because the police prohibited it, arguing it would be a provocation that might result in clashes…
    Now people are frustrated. And this is great stuff for political manoeuvring…

  7. incognito says:

    This is the way the world ends

    I am glad that people are coming around to what I’ve been predicting for years and for which I was taken to task and got flak as a “pessimist” — what optimists label realists.

    The world, however, does not end. It defies the notion of a linear progress. History is a sequences of descents into darkness rather than progress.

    “The Chinese are not angels…” No they are just human beings: a mixture of good and bad like other normal human beings.

    The Chinese do not need to be appeased and protected, hence they can be criticized and arrested — the idea is to distract from the self-dhimmification by appearing to be “tough with unrest”.

    It’s been canceled because the police prohibited it, arguing it would be a provocation that might result in clashes…

    The difference is, of course, that such events can be canceled without a violent reaction, but let’s see if the “youths” decide to go for some event of their own if they ask for permission, and even if they do, if the police cancels it.

    BTW, this is hardly a new problem. It’s been a while since some urban areas in France are out of bounds for police. It’s only a matter of time before they will spillover into more areas with the police retreating.

    The muslim segment of European populations has reached a mass which, with violence, is no more feasible to control, what with native EU demographically dying and in bantkruptcy.

    Those who wonder about the deteriorartion in EU’s anti-Israel policy, this is a major reason. And the US is on the same path.

  8. Lorenz Gude says:

    When I spent time in Paris in ’59 I was impressed with the distinctive French Police vans lined up on small thoroughfares just off a main streets where riots or marches might take place. The police were fully prepared to maintain public order. The police here in Australia showed similar determination when trouble broke out on Sydney beaches a few years ago. They try it on. You stop them. End of story. If the state fails to maintain its monopoly on violence then it is Rafferty’s rules. That is why maintaining a “well regulated Militia” is a prudent policy. :-)

  9. JN says:

    To Lorenz Gude,
    Thank you! One hears so much negativity about us Chinese in the West that it’s refreshing to read something positive. I thought that paragraph was an unnecessary swipe at my race. What do the Chinese government, the triads and human traffickers have to do with this incident? I doubt the CCP, detestable as they are, incites the overseas Chinese to cause trouble. As for the triads and human traffickers, their main victims are also Chinese. Equating ordinary Chinese with these criminals is like equating the victim with the perpetrator.

  10. Cynic says:

    E.G.,

    You forgot, in #4, to include José María Aznar who said

    What binds us, however, is our unyielding support for Israel’s right to exist and to defend itself. For Western countries to side with those who question Israel’s legitimacy, for them to play games in international bodies with Israel’s vital security issues, for them to appease those who oppose Western values rather than robustly to stand up in defense of those values, is not only a grave moral mistake, but a strategic error of the first magnitude.

    Israel is a fundamental part of the West. The West is what it is thanks to its Judeo-Christian roots. If the Jewish element of those roots is upturned and Israel is lost, then we are lost too. Whether we like it or not, our fate is inextricably intertwined.

  11. JN says:

    Re: Comment by Lorenz Gude — June 22, 2010 @ 8:14 am

    Thank you! One hears so much negativity about us Chinese in the West that it’s refreshing to read something positive. I thought that paragraph was an unnecessary swipe at my race. What do the Chinese government, the triads and human traffickers have to do with this incident? I doubt the CCP, detestable as they are, incites the overseas Chinese to cause trouble. As for the triads and human traffickers, their main victims are also Chinese. Equating ordinary Chinese with these criminals is like equating the victim with the perpetrator.

  12. incognito says:

    Cynic,

    I just posted a reference to Aznar and Rahola, who is a leftie.

    Clearly they are against the grain, the question is why?

  13. entresminutos says:

    Aznar has always supported Israel, the article is not surprising.

    When it comes to Rahola, you have to be careful. She is in favor of Israel, but we should not praise someone taking only into account his/her support of Israel. There are also stupid and dreadful persons who are in favor of Israel, and Rahola is one of them. She may be bold, she may be right on one particular matter, but she is terribly wrong in so many others, concerning Spanish internal politic, and many of those who praises her are not aware or this.

    She is a separatist who has been an important leader in a political party (ERC) tied to terrorists (Terra Lliure http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_Lliure).

  14. incognito says:

    OK, but my question is WHY are they agaist the grain when it is not in their interest to be? Particularly a lefty who supports terrorism

  15. E.G. says:

    Cynic,

    An O/T for thee:
    http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z205/JekyllnHyde_photos/corrigantwitter.jpg

    And I omitted Aznar because I assumed everybody here read his article. I shouldn’t have, because it’s become less and less trivial to find Europeans supporting Israel.

  16. Michelle Schatzman says:

    A few remarks :

    @ E.G. #2 : the link to the article you mentioned is already in my essay, but the punctuation makes it invisible. See segment 1, paragraph 6. I thought that the presence of the Chiracs’ adoptive daughter was not relevant.

    A decent description of the demonstration is here :

    http://www.causeur.fr/a-belleville-elle-est-pas-belle-la-ville,6691

    The place where I learnt most was the franco-chinese forum I mentioned in my essay. From the exchanges held there, I learnt that, in a previous thread that was suppressed due to language excesses, there appeared a group of young chinese with aggressively racist attitudes, who displayed their intentions clearly. I do not read chinese (alas), but some participants to this forum mentioned that the posters are much, much more explicit than in french. Probably nobody reads enough chinese to follow what is going on on the french fora in chinese, but probably they would be all closed down for racism, if they were followed and the law applied.

    @ E.G. #6, I promise to write something about the wine and sausage. This is much, much more complicated than the Chinese in Belleville, and is, again, very falsely reported by the main media. Much (kosher or non kosher) sausage for thought…

    @ entresminutos # 12, I did not know that Rahola had been tied to a terrorist catalanist movement. It is even stranger then, that she is pro-israel! Most, most of the catalan left is staunchly anti-israel, with significant excursions into plain antisemitism : info from my son who speaks catalan and spanish, spent a year in Barcelona and has kept some ties there.

    Then, incog’s question becomes all the more interesting.

  17. entresminutos says:

    incog

    I would not go as far a saying that Rahola does support terrorism. She was in a political party with ties to the separatist terrorism, and some fellows in this party have been terrorist, but she has condemned ETA many times.

    Michelle

    I can’t tell for sure why does she support Israel. You now the left was pro Israel before 1967, and some may have remained loyal. Her former party, ERC, is divided by this issue. Some are pro, some are anti Israeli. She may identify the struggle of the Catalonian people against the Spanish oppressor with the struggle of Israel. A little country surrounded by enemies that won’t let them be.
    She is also a feminist, and maybe that makes her less prone to accept the Islam. Maybe she has been influenced by Oriana Fallaci, or some other persons or friends.

    If you think about it, it’s not that strange.

    The puzzling question is why does so many feminist atheist leftists cry in anger against Israel while they say nothing against Hamas.

    But I think Richard Landes (an a few others) has given us a consistent paradigm to find the answer: the post colonialist guilt, the third worldism oppressed dialectic, and so on.

  18. incognito says:

    entresminutos,

    From your description of Rahola’s background, she does not seem as bad as I thought based on your 1st reply.
    Looks like she might be one of the left who takes seriously enough the left cause to know islamists are the last to be supported.

    This, however, does not explain Aznar. What’s his angle?

  19. incognito says:

    “Enjoy”:

    Israel breathes; world condemnation instantaneous
    Andrew Pessin
    http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2010/06/israel_breathes_world_condemna.html

  20. Lorenz Gude says:

    @JN
    I studied Chinese history with duBarry at Columbia in the early 60s and have always had a certain appreciation for the China and Chinese people. What I think is interesting here is that the Chinese in France appear to not be disarmed – even as a tiny minority – in the face of Islamofascism. This behavior – whatever the contents of their signs – is more normal that Western behavior in general and French behavior in particular. In my opinion giving the Islamofascists back what put out on signs is actually not racism but giving fair warning that the Chinese are not taking the intimidation laying down. That too is normal behavior – giving warning that if the other side keeps pressing they are in for a fight. Similar to firing warning shots. It is encoded in our DNA to give warning to save unnecessary bloodshed. Unfortunately sometimes cultures get into a nihilistic space where they fail to defend themselves – even connive at their own defeat. Like the latter Roman Empire and today’s West.

  21. As a French and a neo-conservative political website owner, I covered this demonstration.
    Here is the article in French (but you can Google translate it):
    http://www.drzz.info/article-apero-geant-nems-et-biere-tsingtao-a-belleville-par-jean-patrick-grumberg-52759065.html

    I have the answer to your question: why did police released the Arabs? The answer is that French government believe that, and past demonstration prove them right, any police real security measures against these black and arabs gangs would lead to near civil war.
    Just remember that after a few Vespa thieves were chased by police, and unfortunately, the thieves had fatal car accident and died, the suburbs got out of control for a few nights in a row: car burnings, store fronts destroyed, police cars and police stations attacked, and so on and so on.
    Gangs rules on the suburbs, and the French government confess it by calling them: outlaw areas.

    Now what you missed in your article is that the chinese demonstrators had chinese flags – a first. Its because they do not trust the French anymore, since they take the lack of official concern about their security as a sign of them being treated as inferiors, not as important as the whites.

    Jean-Patrick Grumberg

  22. Michelle Schatzman says:

    Lorenz,

    I completely agree with you, and I do find the attitude of the Chinese from Belleville much more sensible than the attitude of most of my countrymen.

    There is however a debate, which I discovered only on the franco-chinese blog I mentioned. There were those who advocated a “Chinese against arabs+blacks thugs” fight, and those who thought that the fight should be against crime, and the appeal to demonstrate should have been sent to *everybody*, whatever their ethnicity, religion and so on.

    The fact that the appeal was made only to the Chinese (and some people from Indochina joined) substantifies a situation where the Chinese do not trust the state and the police to protect them, and here, the cultural element might be absolutely essential. Indeed, I had some tales by Chinese friends from mainland China that police can be extremely corrupt there and quite unable or not wanting to protect regular people.

    The Belleville Chinese are rather recent immigrants (ten years at most), they are not much educated (read on several serious web sites) and are mostly ignorant of the way the french system functions.

    For instance, the fact that the police did not arrest the handbag thief, who was delivered to them by the Chinese crowd who had caught him can be interpreted various wyas. One interpretation is advocated by RL. Another one goes like this : the offender was (obviously) a minor with fifty adults yelling after him. The police may have declined to arrest him, because they were more afraid of a lynching taking place under their eyes, than of a free thief.

    Another troubling fact (from the extreme-right blog
    http://preemigration.blogspot.com/2010/06/crash-du-vivre-ensemble-en-direct-de.html, which displays very interesting pictures, and which I used also for my information) is that the riots were diffuse in the area. Little groups of Chinese here and there attacking even smaller groups of blacks and arabs, a local police precinct attacked by Chinese, and later “freed” by more important police forces.

    The french word for a group of people pursuing isolated ethnically different people is “ratonnade”. It comes from the smear word “raton” applied to north-african Arabs during the Algeria war, and a “ratonnade” was operated by Europeans against the “ratons”. Of course, the Algerian independantists had also their own kind of atrocities, and I am not trying to say that the victime is nice and right.

    The activity of the Chinese demonstrators in Belleville who pursued isolated arabs or blacks can only be described as “ratonnaded” : take someone randomly, just on the color of his skin and the shape of his face, and try to harm him, at many against few.

    I would not consider, even one second, that this is healthy behavior. Saying clearly who the aggressors of the Chinese were is healthy. Picking up random scapegoats is called a “ratonnade”. It is not the same as a pogrom, since I do not believe that the Jews in the tsarist empire were in any measure guilty of aggressing the local gentiles. Obviously the level of violence of the Chinese was less than the level of violence of the Cossacks during a pogrom. No rapes, no murders, only some cars overturned, three or so burned, some shop windows destroyed (probably with accompanying pillage). I know nothing about the number of wounded.

    But I should say anyway : not a pretty picture, and clearly the consequence of a conflagration between a population refusing rules and another one who felt they could take justice in their hands.

  23. E.G. says:

    Michelle,

    But that’s the whole problem: why does a (not very homogenous) group feel a need to take law and justice in its hands?
    Why are they exasperated?

    There seems to be a consensus (see e.g., Lorenz Gude) that culturally, S.E. Asians are quiet, hard-working, peaceful individuals. All the more so as immigrants. But they’d respond aggressively if aggressed.

    The extreme-right blog has a somewhat admiring tone describing these people/groups/mobs taking out their rage on “exemplars” of their aggressors. Only neo-Nazis or affiliated Europeans act this way.

    It seems that the majority of those who rallied just wanted to claim “enough is enough”, their approach is to live and let live, but they’re denied this elementary right.

    Here’s one more account (in French)
    http://www.drzz.info/article-apero-geant-nems-et-biere-tsingtao-a-belleville-par-jean-patrick-grumberg-52759065.html

  24. Michelle Schatzman says:

    E.G., I find the report by Grumberg you linked to quite good, and in fact much better than the report I linked to in causeur.fr.

    What is an “affiliated European”?

    Clearly the Belleville Chinese took the law in their hands, because in their country, the police is brutal and takes care very fast of trouble makers – at least if it is not corrupt. The felt, rightly, taht their problems were not considered by the authorities. But it seems that they mostly did *not* report teh problems, for fear of being deported (in the case of illegal migrants) and becuse of insufficient knowledge of the local language.

    They also have a tendency to be a very closed community, and to keep living in a purely chinese speaking environment, as much as possible.

    The big debate that we do not have in France is the debate about public order. The notion of public order is the basis in the philosophy of police work in France : you don’t send the police for reestablishing law and order, it it will do more damage than good. I already quoted here the problem of the rock star brin ging drugs into France (and thus deserving to be arrested) and the stadium full of hysterical fans who will riot if the star cannot perform. The french solution is clearly : do not arrest the rock star, for fear of bloodshed among the fans.

    So, here, we do have a problem about priorities in public order, and it is absolutely not open and on the table. Of course, false reporting by french MSNM does not help at all.

  25. E.G. says:

    Michelle,

    I meant Europeans affiliated to extreme-right violent movements.

    As far as I understand, the community label (in this case at least) is baseless. The physical “resemblance” among S.E. Asians in Euro-eyes should not be taken seriously. Nor should we ignore that not all these people, from different areas and countries are law-abiding: there are illegal immigrants, tax-evaders and some mafia elements there. But the majority is and wishes to be good citizens.
    Explaining the marginal aggressive acts by habits from the old country seems a fallacious explanation (to be polite), first because factually, I’m far from sure that the “Chinese” aggressors have any memories (too young), and that if they do, that they fled a police-state only to wish for their new state to become one.
    Secondly, such an explanation falls into the relativity principle, equating a “youth” with another “youth” from foreign cultures. The same effect (aggressiveness) does not necessarily result from the same causes.

    The few French-Chinese and French-Vietnamese I know are about as community-minded as most French Jews. That is, attached to people, culture, religion, tradition etc. on one hand, and determined to integrate and succeed within the general (national) community on the other hand. And there is no contradiction between the 2. The language “problem” is usually solved by the first generation raised in France (bilingual). Many newcomers have to learn minimal language skills for their jobs (servers in food shops or shopkeepers…).

    A debate on public order? Is this a matter of debate? Since when?
    To me it seems the debate might be on the degree of tolerance the society is willing to accept. Apparently, the government is being too variably tolerant for some citizens’ taste.

    … Or not enough for some others:
    http://www.liberation.fr/societe/0101642469-pour-les-quatre-de-villiers-le-bel

  26. E.G. says:

    In other, practically non-reported, news: a large (10-15,000) rally for Gilad Shalit took place yesterday in Paris:

    English:
    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3909292,00.html

    French:
    http://www.crif.org/?page=articles_display/detail&aid=20793&returnto=accueil/main&artyd=2

  27. Cynic says:

    incognito,

    Clearly they are against the grain, the question is why?

    Maybe there are still some honest and sincere people who see the world the right way up, apropos Melanie Phillips’ latest book “The world turned upside down”.
    People who can appraise a situation without an agenda to force a preconceived result.

  28. Lorenz Gude says:

    @Michelle

    A friend visited Paris last year and said that there were what she took to be soldiers guarding the Louvre with automatic weapons. The French would seem to be serious about defending the Mona Lisa and other offensive infidel icons or do you think it is just a bluff?

  29. E.G. says:

    Lorenz,

    Even that phallic symbol of Ze city of lights is closely guarded by armed soldiers. And it’s not Ze only one.

  30. Cynic says:

    E.G.,

    And I omitted Aznar because I assumed everybody here read his article.
    You assumed? tsk, tsk. And you left out one of the few people in Spain who puts phony Tony to shame in the decency game.
    Ol’ Tony is demanding 400 trucks a day so that the civilian organisations will be snowed under with “humanitarian aid” and the excess will automagically fall into the hands of Hamas.

    An assumption is a proposition that is taken for granted, as if it were true based upon presupposition without preponderance of the facts.

    Forsooth sir, and how would Will have twittered Assume a virtue, if you have it not.? :-) hee :-)
    He did not have the hypocritical left to deal with but still knew how to describe them.

    Actually this left/right thing is not correct. incognito questions how Rahola can be leftwing and apparently support Israel because he assumes that because she was classified as sinister :-) [senestre]
    she falls into the same category of people that wish for its destruction.
    Maybe, because she once advocated the assumed virtues of socialism it doesn’t mean that she abrogated some of her beliefs in the interest of an agenda as today’s Left seem to have done.
    Maybe she is too honest with herself and no hypocrite to fall into the Cognitive Dissonance hole.
    The amorphous mess that represents the Left or Socialism needs to broken down into its respective Socialist Sects.

  31. Cynic says:

    Have the filters got my post to E.G.?

    Lorenz,

    Maybe the arms they ‘bare’ are just paint ball ones?

  32. Cynic says:

    Lorenz,

    I was in Paris in August of last year and did not see anything untoward with regard to automatic weapons on display. There were the expected uniformed guards at the Louvre though what they could have accomplished with half of China, three quarters of Japan and the whole of Eastern Europe seething through the displays I don’t know. Oh, and I left out a Portuguese family, a Brazilian family and one from Israel, to complete the picture of suppressed pandemonium.
    We didn’t have to walk, we were just carried through in the crush.

  33. E.G. says:

    Cynic,

    Didn’t you feel at home putting your bags on the X-ray machine before entering the Louvre?

    You must go back to see a Guillotine displayed at the Orsay Museum!

    http://www.musee-orsay.fr/en/events/exhibitions
    (see: Crime and Punishment, the bottom note…)

    Looks like the Filters have received the Guillotine treatment!

  34. Cynic says:

    E.G.,

    I feel more at home when I’m on the bus and there is a “blonde” with paratrooper insignia carrying a rifle longer than she is tall. :-)
    Actually the X-ray m/c with the mass of packed humanity close by would be a prime site for a madman. Nuff said.
    If they were truly thinking of security they would arrange a different scheme to get into the pyramid.

    With regard to the Orsay museum, that will have to be for another one of those magical moments when things transpire to make it possible to travel.
    We don’t have the facility to cheaply travel where the Oxfordian goes, :-)

    By the way Michelle mentioned sausage in #17 above. Maybe it was the Auvergne with the Bordeaux or does the Beaujolais make it worse? The offense I mean.
    Aaah!

  35. Cynic says:

    E.G.,

    They entitle the Pierre-Paul Prud’hon “Justice and Divine Vengeance” as “Thou shalt not kill” whereas it should be “Thou shalt not murder”.
    Pity they still cannot get it right.

  36. Cynic says:

    Michelle,

    You ask What is an “affiliated European”?

    I know I’m being facetious but in Brazil in some instances one of the partners in a marriage wants to distance him/herself from something en famille so they declare that they are only “agregado” with the equivalent “Alors là / Bof” as they distance themself.

    Maybe the “affiliated” European sets a limit to the extent to which they are prepared to participate? :-)

  37. E.G. says:

    Jean-Patrick Grumberg,

    Your comment was blocked when I posted your article.
    I believe your explanation for police inaction/selective action is correct.

  38. E.G. says:

    Cynic,

    I’m still encountering disbelief when I tell people that in the original language (Hebrew) it’s murder and not kill. Hundreds of years have their weight… It’s perhaps a task some chief Rabbis should accomplish.

  39. E.G. says:

    incognito and entresminutos,

    Regarding Pilar Rahola, here’s Nick Cohen’s take:
    http://standpointmag.co.uk/node/3117

  40. Michelle Schatzman says:

    Jean-Patrick,

    I posted my latest comment while your post was still in the filter. I know that chinese flags were brandished. Maybe I left that out in my account, because I wrote my first draft late on monday, sent it then. RL posted it on tuesday, and I had no time to review it on tuesday, sent some modifications tuesday late, and forgot again about the chinese flags. I wrote something which is not far : the chinese community in Belleville is influenced by the chinese embassy, and I observed that some of the news were found on popular China sponsored web sites.

    Now, how much affiliation to communist China is meant by waving thoses flags is left for us to ponder. These days, the flag of China is more a nationalist symbol, and a big part of chinese politics is nationalist. Sooooooooooo, lots of questions here.

  41. Michelle Schatzman says:

    Very good video of Hamas beating the hell out of friday pray-ers in gaza (public prayer as protest) :

    http://www.drzz.info/article-en-video-une-solution-aux-prieres-dans-les-rues-de-la-goutte-d-or-par-jean-patrick-grumberg-52723256.html

    The comments and subtitles are in english.

  42. incognito says:

    Another must read by Lee Smith:

    http://www.tabletmag.com/news-and-politics/36885/the-next-lebanon-war/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=the-next-lebanon-war

    And evidence that by limiting itself from winning to appease the world has been a repeated strategic mistake by Israel which may well cost it its existence. That’s because the world that pressured Israel to desist from defeating its enemies has now turned around and abandoned Israel to the wolves as a “strategic liability” precisely because it has appeased it and refrained from winning.

    Yet Israel has still not learned the lesson and continues along the same path.

  43. E.G. says:

    Michelle,

    Re- the video.

    Nobody in his right mind would act like the Hamas policemen. And nobody would like any Western police to act this way.

    The only point this video makes is the exploitation of religious rites for political purposes.

  44. incognito says:

    Regarding Pilar Rahola, here’s Nick Cohen’s take

    Looks like my guess was right on the money: the term left has preserved its true meaning for her and she has not succumbed to the group-think. One can respect that even if one is not of the left.

  45. incognito says:

    And here is Moshe Arens, rational as usual, about the Israeli slide down the path of US/western appeasement:

    Is Israel becoming a banana republic?
    Israeli subservience to American demands does not strengthen Israel’s image in the eyes of its enemies and in the capitals of Europe and Asia.
    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/is-israel-becoming-a-banana-republic-1.297777

  46. incognito says:

    Now that the Obama administration has decided to raise the profile of the differences of opinion that existed for many years, Israel giving in to Washington’s demands may momentarily assuage tempers in Washington. But the emphasis is on momentarily. Additional demands will be coming, and if they are not accommodated the situation may worsen. In Jonathan Alter’s book “The Promise” on Obama’s first year in the White House, Obama is quoted as saying: “I know how to handle Netanyahu.” And after a year of dealing with him, Obama probably gives himself a good score on this subject.

    Now does anybody here remember what I said about Bibi when he won the election? A lot of talk and no action/spine. It takes one to know one and that’s why Obama kew how to handle him.

    What is worth is that Obama appears to be utterly incompetent and weak too (that’s why he’s tough with Israel because there is no cost to it), so subservience to him is several fold more dangerous.

  47. incognito says:

    And here’s com incompetent and dangerous Obama is:

    Obama Changes His Tune
    http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2010/06/026599.php

  48. Ray in Seattle says:

    Just a note to my friends here at Augean Stables. I’ve been very busy the last few weeks and so my online time has been limited. While this is my favorite blog/forum I’m using what little online time I can find to post the occasional comment at some of the more widely read forums.

    Things are very dangerous for Israel right now. At the same time I perceive that more people are waking up to the outrageous worldwide condemnation that Israel get’s for defending itself. Probably the Flotilla videos are a factor. I think well-stated pro-Israel comments on those more widely read forums at this time can make a cumulative difference. I encourage Augean Stables regulars to try to make a few of those every day if you can. It all adds up. Then come back here for the steak and lobster of course. I know some of you do this already because I see your comments out there occasionally. Way to go.

  49. Joanne says:

    “…it’s become less and less trivial to find Europeans supporting Israel.”

    EG, what do you mean by that? That there are more Europeans supporting Israel recently or fewer?

  50. Joanne says:

    I hate to say it, but there is a silver lining here, as long as no innocent gets gets killed or seriously hurt:

    The more that Islamists attack other nationalities, whether in European neighborhoods (Paris) or on the international scene (Sudan, Chechnya, Philippines, Thailand…), the faster the world will realize that serious hatred lies at the heart of radical Islamic ideology.

    Then the world will understand that the problem isn’t always Israel.

  51. E.G. says:

    Joanne,

    Fewer prominent ones, publicly.

  52. E.G. says:

    Yes Joanne,

    That’s a trend. For the time being it looks more like a trickle.
    People realizing they’re duped by PC and MSNM start questioning Progressive values, their coherence and their compatibility to their (our) desired way of life.

  53. Joanne says:

    I’m all for progressive values; I’m not much for “Progressive” values.

    I’m really a generic leftist. I believe in a lot of the basic, traditional values of the left, but I feel uncomfortable with a lot of the received wisdom of left-wing culture.

    Which just goes to show…that even the Left shouldn’t have a monopoly on the, uh, left. If you know what I mean.

  54. incognito says:

    The more that Islamists attack other nationalities, whether in European neighborhoods (Paris) or on the international scene (Sudan, Chechnya, Philippines, Thailand…), the faster the world will realize that serious hatred lies at the heart of radical Islamic ideology.

    Or the faster they’ll get scared, want to appease them and want Israel gone.

    People realizing they’re duped by PC and MSNM start questioning Progressive values, their coherence and their compatibility to their (our) desired way of life.

    You have a much better opinion of “people” than I do which, unfortunately, is not supported by evidence.

  55. incognito says:

    And it looks like I am not the only one concerned with the Israeli elite:

    Ignoring the tsunami
    The superpower under whose patronage we shelter is becoming increasingly weak and increasingly distant, and the Middle East is becoming unstable.
    By Ari Shavit
    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/ignoring-the-tsunami-1.297986#

  56. Cynic says:

    incognito,

    Israel is between a rock and a hard place when it comes to the US which with its boot has been playing Israel’s neck like an accelerator pedal in a Formula 1 race giving it a roller coaster ride in freedom of action.
    From the 1956 Sinai Campaign forced withdrawal by the US from Sinai without any formal treaty, which Eisenhower later lamented as a big mistake on his part to the threats of sanctions in the UN by Europe in the UN during the terrorist bombing onslaught and Lebanon, only controlled by a then sympathetic Whitehouse, to what appears to be a wholly unsympathetic Whitehouse today given its actions of the past few months.
    How much would you bet against the Whitehouse letting the UN and ilk loose if Israel did yours and Moshe Arens’ bidding?
    With the only possible support politically and military in the world from the US and its yo-yo foreign policy Israel is not free to do as it needs to project a “strong horse”.
    Although the US got a UN resolution on Lebanon 2006 it has demonstrated that it has “not the will” to force its implementation.
    Now if Israel had the backing of China you would have witnessed some resolution to finish with the circus.

  57. Cynic says:

    incognito,

    Now given Ari Shavit’s tsunami what course of action would you council with the US drunk under the table and Israel surrounded by thugs with broken bottles.
    Jackie Chan theatrics won’t help.

  58. Cynic says:

    E.G.,

    I see my comment #31 made it through the filters eventually.
    The sky is blue, the sun is shining and it’s lovely to sit outside with sausage au vin.

  59. Cynic says:

    E.G.,

    Thought you would enjoy this O/T diversion from the joys of the 21st Century.
    I’m Beginning to Believe This Obama Fellow Is Unequal to the Task

    I and my guests were momentarily stunned, this being the first time any of us had heard an ill word spoken about Mr. Obama by a European of impeccable intellect with the Hermes ascot to match.

  60. Daniel Bielak says:

    I recently wrote the following comments on the older post “On the nature of Islamophobia: Jacobs vs. the “liberal” Rabbis on the Boston Megamosque”, and I’m posting the comments also here in this more recent post because I want what I wrote to be read by as many people as possible. (I made some corrections (correctional changes), here, in/to the comments)

    —-

    Westerners, want to think, about Islamic-Supremacists, “we’re not really different from them at bottom” (to quote what Hesperado wrote about how Westerners want to think about Islamic-Supremcaists), because Westerners believe a false narrative (about the situation – the situation being the vicious racist intendedly genocidal currently 90-year war against Israel) – Westerners believe lies that vilify Israel.

    What is happening now happened – exactly (in the exact pattern of form) – in the 1930’s.

    What happened in the 1930’s is quaint compared to what is happening now.

    Jewish people – Israeli leaders, advocates of Israel – can make things change for the better.

    Jewish – Israeli leaders, advocates of Israel – people need to start to tell the factual history – the factual past 90-year history – of the situation.

    Comment by Daniel Bielak — June 24, 2010 @ 7:07 am

    —-

    Correction:

    “…because Westerners believe a false narrative…”

    …because Westerners believe a false narrative – because of the combination of (their) ignorance of historical facts, and (their) being told lies (which, in lesser degrees of obscenity and perversity of the lies, have been appeasingly told to them by delusional Jewish people – almost all Jewish people – and which, in greater degrees of obscenity and perversity of the lies, have been told to them by deranged Jewish people – some few very vocal Jewish people…

    Comment by Daniel Bielak — June 24, 2010 @ 7:15 am

    —-

    As has always been the case – for thousands of years,

    The lies were originally told by racist genocidally anti-Jewish non-Jewish people, and then the lies were allowed, and internalized, and adopted, and most influentially propagated, by Jewish people.

    Comment by Daniel Bielak — June 24, 2010 @ 7:17 am

    —-

    Jewish people can stop the lies – can stop the belief in the lies.

    Jewish people can and need to tell the truth.

    Jewish people can and need to tell the factual past 90-year history of the situation.

    Comment by Daniel Bielak — June 24, 2010 @ 7:19 am

    —-

    Ray,

    Thanks for your understanding.

    Comment by Daniel Bielak — June 24, 2010 @ 7:21 am

    —-

    Ray,

    Thanks for your understanding and sympathy and compassion and kindness and support.

    Comment by Daniel Bielak — June 24, 2010 @ 7:24 am

    —-

    Also, I want to add that,

    I think that what incognito says is – and I think that what is the case is:

    the chicken and the egg

    Comment by Daniel Bielak — June 24, 2010 @ 7:28 am

  61. E.G. says:

    Cynic,

    It’s a bit early for the gloo-gloo, but what’s a few hours (a fine argument for Kippur too!)?

    As you noted, I corrected my own fallacy and repented: my conscience is therefore as clear as the blue (mitt a bissele weiss) sky!

    I really don’t think the wine&sausage “event” was the right appropriate reply to the street prayers, if only for its characterization: is this the best symbol of French culture and civility?

    CU later, after my Cava (si, señor entresminutos, the real thing!)

  62. incognito says:

    What A Decade of Peace and Justice Activism Has Wrought
    http://blog.camera.org/archives/2010/06/what_a_decade_of_peace_and_jus.html

    There are no chinese in Germany.

  63. incognito says:

    Cynic,

    Only an idiot could be oblivious to the situation you describe — every reasonable person knows how critical the US is to Israel.

    But what is also clear that by playing the vassal and appeasing the Obama administration ends up in the administration dumping Israel as a weak strategic liability. IOW, the more it apeases the US, the more it loses the US.

    Unfortunately this mistake is hard to correct — it’s hard to gain credibility once you lose it, which is why everybody attacks Israel now.

    North Korea is in much worse situation than Israel, yet instead of appeasing the world it plays it like a violin and makes everybody appease them. Had Israel played that game chances are it would have been better off — as things stand now it had not much to lose.

    The problem, of course, is a collapse of leadership and strategic vision. I did not particularly like Begin, but when he told Reagan off he was right.

  64. incognito says:

    Although the US got a UN resolution on Lebanon 2006 it has demonstrated that it has “not the will” to force its implementation.

    And there’s a good reason for that: America is bankrupt with little chance of recovery, trapped in two wars which it cannot possibly win and which drive it into worse bankruptcy. It is also decadent, with all its public and private institutions utterly corrupt and incompetent.

    Obama is a reflection of that, not a cause. A live America would not have been fooled into electing this sad clown or the idiotic congress. It is Rome II and this is ending the same way. Even the best of president and congress could not save it. It;s over.

    Now if Israel had the backing of China you would have witnessed some resolution to finish with the circus.

    Funny you should say that. Israel had an arms deal with China set up which would have contributed to a good relations and guess what? Israel cancel it to appease the US — the exact opposite of what it should have done to keep the US on its toes.

    I repeat: Israel does not understand how power games are played. As a result it has put itself on a pass to destruction.

  65. incognito says:

    Now given Ari Shavit’s tsunami what course of action would you council with the US drunk under the table and Israel s urrounded by thugs with broken bottles. Jackie Chan theatrics won’t help.

    The answer is in my last 2 messages. Unfortunately, strategy is a long-term affair. Israel has fucked that up for the last 10-20 years and is now reaping the consequences. Having brought itself to an impossible situation it has no slack.

    In essence it has bet on the weak horse — the west — and it has not considered this possibility by also betting on the strong horse and playing the 2 horses against one another.

    There is little it can do now. It may try to emulate North Korea, but it is too late and it won’t be credible. Continuing on the current path, which is what Bibi and Barak are capable of, is a lost cause.

  66. incognito says:

    Cynic,

    I answered to your #58, but the filters ate it. Let’s hope it’ll pop later.

  67. incognito says:

    Cynic,

    Re your #60 — the king is naked in the US too — there were several prominent and strong pieces about Obama’s incompetence.

  68. incognito says:

    is this the best symbol of French culture and civility?

    It’s probably what they got today, given that the culture and civility are long gone.

  69. incognito says:

    Apropos french culture and civility: apparently the lack of it is quite obvious:

    The squad’s chartered plane landed Thursday in the small Bourget airport near Paris. Police guarded the far end of the tarmac to let the players disembark away from journalists and fans.

    Les Bleus were eliminated from the first round after a tournament in which they staged a one-day strike, failed to win a match and had forward Nicolas Anelka expelled for insulting the coach.

    I’m guessing Anelka is not a pure french name. And in last world cup there was another french using his
    head as a weapon, no?

    How the mighty have fallen, and I don’t mean soccer.

  70. Cynic says:

    E.G.,

    I really don’t think the wine&sausage “event” was the right appropriate reply to the street prayers, if only for its characterization: is this the best symbol of French culture and civility?

    No, cheese & wine is but it doesn’t have the same taste.

  71. incognito says:

    Another example of a piece on Obama incompetence:

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2010/06/24/saving_obama_from_himself_106084.html

    Unfortunately, it won’t make any difference.

  72. Cynic says:

    incognito,

    North Korea is in much worse situation than Israel, yet instead of appeasing the world it plays it like a violin

    because it has China conducting and no Jews are involved for the Europeans to get all uptight.

    Israel unfortunately cannot improvise with maestro Foggy Bottom holding the baton:
    Delegitimizing the Delegitimizers

    But the efforts to use international organizations to delegitimize and constrain Israel have accelerated under Obama for at least three reasons.

    First, he’s raised the profile of international organizations, conferred on them new prestige, elevated gangs of thugs like the UN Human Rights Council, and made clear that international consensus is near and dear to him, a priority above many other foreign policy goals. This has emboldened Israel’s foes, who now enjoy more respect and more visibility. Because Obama has put such a high price on consensus in these bodies and on internationalizing decisions, he is handing a veto to the more aggressively anti-Israel members.

    Second, the U.S. has done nothing to discourage or rebut the delegitimizing. We’ve sat mutely when the UN Human Rights Council has condemned Israel. We haven’t denounced or even chastised the Israel-bashers. When Jeane Kirkpatrick or John Bolton held their posts, you would at least see the Israel-haters’ arguments demolished and their representatives put in their place. No such defense is offered these days by Susan Rice.

    And finally, Obama outside the confines of these bodies, has signaled that it’s fine to slap Israel around. When the American government condemns Israel, others are sure to follow. He’s announced his intention to put daylight between the U.S. and the Jewish state, which tells the Israel-haters they have a green light to take their own swings.

    So just imagine if Israel had told the US to shove it, in the interest of trading with China, what would have transpired vis a vis diplomatic relations with the only power that it could partially rely on.

    All through the years one can see gross errors in US foreign policy where the one to come off worse is Israel, be it Sinai 1956, Lebanon 1983, forcing Arafat down their throat as the only legitimate Palestinian they could deal with.
    We saw the Philidelphi corridor security arrangements that Sharon was forced to accept and its tunneling success with the European observers running away.
    We see again the UN resolution 1701 in Lebanon leading to a forthcoming catastrophe because the the brokering power can’t be bothered to enforce it.
    The US makes Israel offers that it cannot refuse.
    And then of course they are refused spares for military repairs and deals like the helicopter one are canceled at the drop of a hat.
    In many cases Israel is walking on egg shells.

  73. incognito says:

    because it has China conducting and no Jews are involved for the Europeans to get all uptight.

    True. But China is played by NK too. In fact, the Chinese are scared of a collapsing regime there and facing an avalanche of starved koreans over the border. There’s no metarial benefit, only cost to China’s support.

    China probably uses NK to keep the west at bay, but I am not sure that it’s not a very happy support.

    Israel unfortunately cannot improvise with maestro Foggy Bottom holding the baton

    That’s where we disagree. Almost everybody and the kitchen sink treat them with contempt and play them left and right. Even when they still had the power they were deemed quite stupid in their foreign policy.

    So just imagine if Israel had told the US to shove it, in the interest of trading with China, what would have transpired vis a vis diplomatic relations with the only power that it could partially rely on.

    I would not be so sure. 1st, a good relationship with China would have given the US some pause. 2nd, the US almost always retreats when taken on, they always take on the weak.

    It’s not directly related but can you identify any US military victory after WW2? OTOH, how about incompetence and losses? America lacks cunning and is always vanquished by cunning.

  74. incognito says:

    The reality is that the US has been collapsing for quite a while — the fate of all dominant powers — and the trajectory of dumping Israel has also been long and clear. Under these circumstances Israel should have made serious efforts to gain other strong horses as friends when its haters were less widespread and intense.

    But it had no strategic vision and no leadership to figure this out and now it’s too late.

  75. E.G. says:

    Cynic,

    Savouring iowahawk with Cava!
    Todah – and in return, the Tribal update (the main item is in English):
    http://www.youtube.com/user/LatmaTV#p/u/0/3f5vmFXmIjU

  76. E.G. says:

    incognito said so

    Don’t take Europe seriously
    Europeans have lost ability to make distinction between aggressor, victim

  77. [...] Augean Stables » Public Secrets and Conspiracies of Silence: How French media reported riots taking…. Veröffentlicht in Islam, Islamisierung [...]

  78. Cynic says:

    E.G.,

    You’re having me on with your

    “מהדורת השבט 56 עם מועצת המלחמה המוסלמית וכתבנו בונה עדר”
    You must be logged in to view this video.

    link. :-)(

  79. E.G. says:

    Cynic,

    Sorry, I too encountered the same problem.

    Try this (English subs version)
    http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=LatmaTV#p/u/0/rjPZ4XqgF4w

  80. incognito says:

    Remember when I argued after the Marmara fiasco that the west will want more to admit Turkey into EU “in order to dissuade it from the islamic path” and because “it was the west which pushed it to be enemy”?

    Well

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/06/fitzgerald-misreading-turkey-and-its-misrule.html

  81. incognito says:

    Kafka will be astounded:

    “Queers for Palestine” to March in Toronto Gay Pride Event
    http://littlegreenfootballs.com/pages

  82. E.G. says:

    Food for thought:

    Purifying the World: What the New Radical Ideology Stands For
    http://spme.net/library/pdf/PurifyingtheWorld.pdf

  83. incognito says:

    As I said many times, Bibi is all talk, no action and spineless:

    http://newledger.com/2010/06/the-blockade-blunder/

  84. incognito says:

    E.G.,

    This is for you. I wanted to make the point as soon as the events occurred, but Gordis makes it much better:

    The Five – State Solution
    http://danielgordis.org/2010/06/24/the-five-state-solution/

  85. incognito says:

    btw, these are the people who are facilitating the claim that is a racist state, whether that is correct or not.

  86. incognito says:

    Wonderful:

    Turkish parliament approves UNIFIL bill
    Troops from Turkey will join UN patrol in Lebanon for another year.
    http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=179529

    Will iranians be next? Or maybe hamas?

    The many strategic fatihas that Israel has committed are coming home to roost.

  87. incognito says:

    Apparently sharia has had an educational effect on the french:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/7853670/Sarkozy-protester-to-face-charges-of-insulting-president-in-court.html

    We know where all this is going don’t we?

  88. incognito says:

    Oh, I simply LOVE this:

    President Barack Obama said on Thursday the United States and Russia had reached agreement to resume exporting U.S. poultry products to Russia and his administration would support Moscow’s accession to the World Trade Organization.

    Just what you would expect from the world’s only superpower, ain’t it? Will do anything to sell SOMETHING.

  89. incognito says:

    Apparently, Israel does not have enough 5th columns, it needed one more:

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3910037,00.html

  90. E.G. says:

    incognito,

    The Gordis paper – yawn; been hearing this/similar for decades. Goes well with “who killed Arlozorov?” and “Shall the last passenger in Lod/B.G. airport turn the light off”.

    The bus-stop pic — where’s the Spanish conspiracy link? :-/

  91. Cynic says:

    E.G.,

    Same result!

  92. E.G. says:

    Cynic,

    Deepest regrets. I really don’t know what’s going on.

  93. incognito says:

    The Gordis paper – yawn; been hearing this/similar for decades.

    That’s because Israel has ignored the threat for decades. Some day soon it’ll regret it.

    Israel does not have enough problems, huh?

  94. E.G. says:

    incognito,

    I don’t know, can’t tell.
    Ben-Dror Yemini’s been claiming that this latest “Haredi affair” is a fallacy, yet another High-Court hypocrisy (the proportion of non-Ashkenazis in this venerable institution is much lower than the one at the Haredi school). And all and any state has to prioritize its problems and their solutions.
    I really doubt that following Ha-Ha-Haaretz’s agenda, castigating religious Jews while glorifying “Noble Savage” Arabs, is a path worth following, even in reverse.

  95. incognito says:

    e.g.,

    Don’t mix me with haaretz or even Iamini.

    That haredim are a non-cotrbuting, mostly parasitic 5th column in Israel is something that is not even arguable.

    The current controversy is not the issue — usually these things are foolish — but it’s the basic danger they pose.

    If they start using these “revolts” to impose their will, they can cause serious damage. I see them as jihadis without the violence, but not incapable of violence.

  96. incognito says:

    How effectively good taquiya works (MUST READ):

    Turkey, from Ally to Enemy
    Michael Rubin
    http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/turkey–from-ally-to-enemy-15464

    As I said: only the enemy has cunning, the west hasn’t a clue.

  97. E.G. says:

    Why was the media in total silence about this “event” that took place on May 31, 2010 next to the Israeli Embassy (and the Champs Elysées) in Paris?

    (see first item, the pics tell enough)
    http://www.menapress.org/

    Police were ordered to “contain” the rioters and avoid any harm. At their own costs.

  98. E.G. says:

    Cynic,

    FYI:

    LatmaTV

    To our viewers: the other skit has NOT been censored, it was just taken off temporarily by us, for editing purpose and due to purely professional reasons. It will be back shortly as a separated clip. Thank you! :-)
    Latma Team

  99. incognito says:

    I recommend Spengler’s latest article — looks like I am not alone in discerning the post-west.

  100. incognito says:

    More or less what I’ve been arguing:

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/138293

  101. incognito says:

    Do you see a foreign policy patterns?

    Destination: Hamas?
    http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2010/06/026629.php

    If not, read Lee Smith’s article on it.

  102. incognito says:

    From Sayyid Qutb to Hamas: The Middle East Conflict and the Islamization of AntiSemitism
    Bassam Tibi
    http://www.yale.edu/yiisa/bassamtibiworkingpaper62810.pdf

  103. incognito says:

    Do you remember that I’ve been saying that if Israel is accused of atrocities no matter what it does, it might as well focus on winning wars instead of losing them to appease the west?

    Well:

    Friedman moves even farther to the dark side
    http://fresnozionism.org/2010/06/friedman-moves-even-farther-to-the-dark-side/

    Tom Friedman’s Blood Libel of IDF Tactics against Palestinian Terrorists
    Leo Rennert
    http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2010/06/tom_friedmans_blood_libel_of_i.html

    So what has Israel achieved? It has BOTH lost the wars AND it is accused of atrocities. This is called “kick me hard” policy and suicidally stupid.

  104. incognito says:

    Quartet showing its true face:

    Following a meeting with Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, Lavrov said that the quartet recently decided to set up a committee that would include representatives from the Arab League.

  105. Cynic says:

    In a sense O/T but entirely within the concept of this blog
    Daily Mail breaks iPhone 4 recall scoop

    While Twitter account ‘ceoSteveJobs’ has over one million followers, reporter Richard Ashmore overlooked a vital piece of information prominently displayed in the account profile: “Of course this is a parody account.”
    ……
    When they’re not mining Twitter for non-news, they’re reprinting Wikipedia entries as fact. When Ronnie Hazlehurst died all but a couple of newspapers and TV channels relayed a bizarre factoid …….
    ……..
    Among the professionals who fell for it were The Guardian, BBC News, the Times and the Independent.

    It’s not just the fauxtaux but the resulting ischemia in the editorial process due to the unstable collection of transfacts that is causing cerebral thrombosis in the reading public.

  106. E.G. says:

    Cynic,

    I think it’s a très relevant observation.
    I’d think it’s the reverse of ischemia: in a growing flow of (trans)facts, there’s a double problem of what the bottleneck is made of (and perhaps where it’s placed too), and a very problematic filter or reading grid enabling the separation of the wheat from the chaff.

    People in the news business complain they have not enough time to verify and check. So instead they rely on their source’s (often unverified or not updated) credibility. We know where this lead…

  107. incognito says:

    It’s not just the fauxtaux but the resulting ischemia in the editorial process due to the unstable collection of transfacts that is causing cerebral thrombosis in the reading public.

    The Internet and electronic media is luring everybody into a false sense of security about the ease with which accurate and reliable information can be obtained. This affects the MSM too, particularly now that they are practically bankrupt, and it certainly induces lazyness.

    In fact, the long-term result is the elimination of accuracy and reliability of sources from journo dictionary and conceptions. Most everything becomes either shallow, fake or propaganda.

    In this environment it becomes impossible to figure out whom and what to believe.

  108. incognito says:

    So instead they rely on their source’s (often unverified or not updated) credibility.

    This is related to what Hitchens once said: It used to be the case that we assessed reputation by one’s work; now we’re assessing work by one’s reputation.

    The thing is that when the former approach was the pillar, you could once in a while risk the latter; but when the latter is the pillar…

  109. E.G. says:

    incognito

    …you get Finkielkraut to sign JCall because he trusts Grossman, and Enderlin to sue Karsenty because he trusts Abu Rahme…

  110. incognito says:

    e.g.,

    You got it.

    By the way, did you read Finkielkraut’s Yad VaShem speech? Contemptible. How did they invite him as keynote speaker?

  111. E.G. says:

    incognito,

    I didn’t read that Finkie speech. And I don’t think he’s contemptible.
    I think he’s honest enough to publicly state he got some things wrong, when he realizes it (it may happen too late).
    He’s done so in the past.
    And there are quite a few things he does get right.

    But I may also be wrong ;-)

  112. incognito says:

    When I said contemptible I was only referring to his speech as I dk much else about him.

    He said that the more we educate about and emphasize the holocaust the more we raise anti-semitism and anti-zionism and that the solution is to include crimes against other components of humanity.

    The first part may be factually true, but it’s the implication that I find contemptible. And I very much doubt his solution.

  113. E.G. says:

    incognito,

    I read Finkielkraut’s speech.
    http://www1.yadvashem.org/yv/he/about/events/pdf/finkielkraut.pdf

    He doesn’t say that the solution is to include crimes against other components of humanity. He is against both the competition of victims’ descendants for their share of collective memory (he doesn’t explicitly mention guilt but that’s the reason for claims for compensations), and the fixation on Auschwitz (as the Shoah’s symbol) as a milestone component of European identity.

    I don’t think he states it clearly enough, but it’s an intuition I’ve been feeling for some time. By focussing on the Shoah, what it destroyed is put aside. The whole meaning of the Shoah is thus distorted. Because it’s not “only” the lives that were terminated, it’s the bi-millenary heritage of Judaism in Europe that was aimed and, in part, successfully destroyed.
    Now, the Jewish heritage is closely interwind with the general European heritage. Neither was totally destroyed, and each rebuilt itself after the war — with Israel being one very important part of the Renaissance of the Jewish heritage.

    I think Fink’s suggestion is to enlarge the framework of considering (studying) the Shoah so as to include both the Jewish specific heritage and the Judeo-Christian one, their near-loss and recoveries, in order to shape a better understanding of the horrible event that nearly destroyed Europe: the Europe that included and benefitted from the Jewish gift.

    Once things are understood this way, there may be a chance for attitudes towards Judaism and Israel to change.

  114. E.G. says:

    incognito,

    You may be tempted to think it’s extremely ambitious and too late.
    You may be right. But there are not many other ways to struggle. This one is a moral, dignified, and very European one. In line with the Jewish-European heritage.

  115. incognito says:

    e.g.,

    re #123: if so, he’s overintellectualizing, for which I have no patience.

    Once things are understood this way, there may be a chance for attitudes towards Judaism and Israel to change.

    When pigs fly.

    But there are not many other ways to struggle.

    Exactly, so intellectuals come up with far-fetched and unreal struggles. They are worse than “Israel must improve its PR”, which at least is more real rather that just something in someone’s abstracting head.

    And as the article I linked to above, PR will not achieve much either, let alone these thought experiments.

    Jews must start behaving like the Chinese in Paris. That’s the only thing that has a chance to attenuate their circumstances. Nothing else.

  116. E.G. says:

    incognito,

    In a cognitive war the cognitive field shouldn’t be left to enemy occupation.

    My view of Fink’s probable intention may have been too clumsily stated. In short it’s “stop focussing on how many died and how, enlarge it to what died with them and save what’s left”. Because if that’s not done, we’ll all suffer the same sort: Hitler and the Mufti will win.
    The message is for all Europeans. And the enterprise must be all European (Chinese included), not just Jewish.

  117. incognito says:

    The reason the cognitive war by the enemy is effective cannot be addressed with counter cognitive war, because it is not a matter of knowledge and evidence. If it were, the counter evidence is overwhelming, yet it does not count.

    It’s not your explanation which is problematic, it’s his argument. If his idea would work, there wouldn’t be a problem to address in the first place.

    The problem is not intellectual and neither is, therefore, the solution.

  118. E.G. says:

    BTW, I looked for the French version of Finkielkraut’s speech and found this Le Monde item:
    Finkielkraut et “le mouvement islamo-gauchiste”

    The short article itself is a classic partial rendition. But it drew 134 comments. Misinformed, hateful, despising… They describe the issue even better than Fink.

  119. incognito says:

    For the Hebrew readers I am posting a paper published by Hagi Ben-Artzi, a professor of philosophy and religion at Bar Ilan Univ., who is also a political activist from the settlements in the West Bank and is married to Bibi’s sister. We went to high-school together and although we are at the opposite extremes of the secular-religious continuum, I agree with his position (short of the religious basis) regarding the 2-state solution. In fact, I have many more recent examples of why it would be insanity to accept the kind of solution the world wants to impose on Israel.

    יוני 2010
    “אשר פיהם דיבר שווא וימינם ימין שקר” (תהילים)

    אנחנו לא מאמינים לכם/ ד”ר חגי בן ארצי
    בימים האחרונים נפתחו (שוב) השיחות בין ישראל והערבים הפלשתינאים. על השולחן שוב עולות ההצעות לחלוקת ארץ ישראל לשתי מדינות – יהודית וערבית, ולחלוקת ירושלים לשתי בירות – יהודית וערבית. המקומות הקדושים בירושלים, שיש בהם עניין משותף ליהדות, לנצרות ולאסלאם, יהיו תחת פיקוח בינלאומי, שיערוב לשלומם של כל המאמינים מכל הדתות.
    ההצעות האלה אינן חדשות – הן מוגשות לישראל בצורות שונות ובעטיפות שונות מאז מלחמת ששת הימים (1967), שבה כבשה ישראל את ירושלים ואת יהודה ושומרון.
    מול כל ההצעות האלה מתבקשת השאלה המרכזית: מה יקרה אם הצד הערבי לא יקיים את ההסכמים?
    השאלה הזאת מתפרטת להרבה שאלות קטנות יותר: מה יקרה אם הערבים יירו על השכונות היהודיות של ירושלים כפי שירו במשך חודשים רבים על שכונת גילה? מה יקרה אם הערבים יירו טילים על ירושלים ותל אביב כפי שהם יורים מעזה על שדרות ואשקלון? מה יקרה אם תימנע מהיהודים הגישה לכותל המערבי ולמערת המכפלה כפי שנמנעת מהם היום הגישה לקבר יוסף ולבתי הכנסת ביריחו?
    בקיצור, מה יקרה אם…?
    התשובה שניתנת לישראל על כל השאלות האלה היא: ערבויות בינלאומיות.
    כל ההסכמים יקבלו גיבוי בינלאומי של האו”ם ואירופה ואמריקה ורוסיה, שיבטיחו את קיום ההסכמים. אם יופרו ההסכמים, ידאגו האו”ם והמעצמות לאכיפתם ולביצועם. במילה אחת: עלינו…
    על התשובה הזאת אני רוצה להציג את תגובתי, שהיא, לפי הבנתי, תגובתם של ישראלים רבים: אנחנו לא מאמינים לאף מילה שלכם, אנחנו לא סומכים על אף הבטחה שלכם, אנחנו לא בוטחים באף התחייבות שלכם. המאמר הזה נועד להסביר לכם בקיצור מדוע הגענו למסקנה הזאת של חוסר אמון גמור בכל המערכות הבינלאומיות.
    אל המסקנה הזאת הגענו לא רק בשנים האחרונות ולא רק בעקבות אירוע בודד, אלא בעקבות הניסיון של עם ישראל במאה השנים האחרונות. אלה מאה השנים שבהן עם ישראל חזר לארצו לאחר אלפיים שנות גלות, הקים את מדינתו ושיקם את חייו הלאומיים. בכל מאה השנים האלה גיליתם יחס עוין כלפי התחייה הלאומית שלנו, רימיתם אותנו, בגדתם בנו, מעלתם באמוננו, ואלמלא הקב”ה א-לוהי ישראל שעמד לימיננו לא היה נשאר יהודי אחד בארץ ישראל. ממש כפי שתיאר זאת דוד המלך בספר תהילים: “שיר המעלות לדוד, לולא ה’ שהיה לנו, יאמר נא ישראל. לולי ה’ שהיה לנו בקום עלינו אדם. אזי חיים בלעונו בחרות אפם בנו… ברוך ה’ שלא נתננו טרף לשיניהם” (תהילים קכ”ד).
    הנה לפניכם דוגמאות אחדות ובולטות:
    בי”ז בחשוון תרע”ח (2.11.1917) ניתנה לעם ישראל הצהרת בלפור. בהצהרה זו, שניתנה לתנועה הציונית, התחייבה בריטניה להקים לעם היהודי “בית לאומי בארץ ישראל” (National home in Palestine). לאחר ההצהרה כבשה בריטניה את ארץ ישראל מידי התורכים בסיוע כלכלי וצבאי של העם היהודי. שנים אחדות לאחר מכן אומצה הצהרת בלפור על ידי חבר הלאומים, הארגון הבינלאומי שהוקם לאחר מלחמת העולם הראשונה, וב-1922 קיבלה בריטניה מנדט מטעם חבר הלאומים “לשלוט בארץ ישראל במגמה להקים בה בית לאומי לעם היהודי”. המשמעות העיקרית של “בית לאומי” היא, שיהודים מכל העולם יכולים לחזור לביתם ולהתיישב בו.
    והנה, מיד אחרי קבלת המנדט החלה בריטניה להפר את הבטחתה ואת התחייבותה הבינלאומית, והטילה הגבלות שונות ומשונות על עליית יהודים לארץ ישראל. זה התחיל ב”ספר הלבן” הראשון, ואחריו השני, והשיא היה ב”ספר הלבן” השלישי שפורסם ב-1939 שבו ביטלה בריטניה את הצהרת בלפור ומנעה כמעט לחלוטין כניסת יהודים לארץ ישראל. התהליך הזה התרחש דווקא בשנים הקריטיות ביותר בהיסטוריה של העם היהודי. בגרמניה עלה היטלר לשלטון (1933) והביא איתו משטר נאצי אנטישמי, שהפעיל גזרות איומות נגד היהודים – אפליה, דיכוי, רדיפות ומעשי רצח ועושק נוראיים. לגורלם הנורא של יהודי גרמניה הצטרפו ב-1938 יהודי אוסטריה, ומיד אחריהם יהודי צ’כוסלובקיה. מאות אלפי יהודים נואשים ניסו לברוח מאירופה. אבל, אף מדינה בעולם לא הסכימה לפתוח את שעריה בפניהם, לרבות ארצות הברית של אמריקה, שהוקמה על ידי פליטים שנמלטו מאירופה ומארצות מצוקה שונות. כאן הגיע רגע המבחן של בריטניה ושל העולם כולו, שהחליט על הקמת “בית לאומי ליהודים בארץ ישראל”. מה המשמעות של בית אם לא ברגע מצוקה נורא, שבו אפשר להימלט אליו?
    והנה, דווקא ברגע הקריטי הזה סגרה בריטניה את שערי ארץ ישראל באופן הרמטי ולא נתנה לאף יהודי להיכנס לביתו הלאומי ולמצוא בו מקלט ומחסה. כל אוניה שהגיעה לחופי הארץ גורשה באכזריות. האם העולם התערב מול הפרה כה בוטה של המנדט, שניתן לבריטניה על ידי חבר הלאומים? האם העולם עשה משהו למען היהודים הלכודים באירופה? שום דבר, אפס. חבר הלאומים שתק, האפיפיור שתק, אמריקה שתקה.
    המדיניות המרושעת והבוגדנית הזאת של בריטניה בגיבוי העולם כולו לא השתנתה גם כאשר החלה גרמניה הנאצית בהשמדתם של יהודי אירופה, בהתחלה על ידי יחידות האיינזץ-גרופן, שירו ביותר ממיליון יהודים, ואח”כ במחנות ההשמדה ובתאי הגזים. למעלה מ-6 מיליון יהודים הומתו באכזריות איומה במשך שש שנות מלחמת העולם השנייה, אבל בריטניה לא שינתה את מדיניותה, והעולם המשיך לשתוק. הרשעות הבריטית הגיעה לשיאה, כאשר המשטר הנאצי הציע לבריטניה ב-1944 להעביר לארץ ישראל מיליון יהודים (בעיקר יהודי הונגריה) תמורת אלף משאיות ועשרים טון סבון. גרמניה כבר הובסה לחלוטין, ולאלף משאיות כבר לא הייתה שום משמעות צבאית. ראשי המשטר הנאצי קיוו להינצל מהמשפט הבינלאומי לאחר המלחמה, ולכן גילו נדיבות כה גדולה. אבל הלורד מוין, הנציב הבריטי במזרח התיכון, דחה את ההצעה הגרמנית בנימוק: “מה אעשה עם מיליון יהודים?”. לא רק בריטניה סירבה להציל יהודים. גם אמריקה סירבה להציל יהודים. לא רק ששעריה נשארו נעולים בפני יהודים, אלא שהיא גם סירבה בעקשנות להציל במהלך המלחמה אפילו יהודי אחד. במשך שנתיים (1943-1944) הפציצו מטוסים אמריקאיים את מפעלי התעשייה ומתקני הצבא הגרמני בפולין. חלק מהם היו ממוקמים מסביב למחנה ההשמדה אושוויץ-בירקנאו. מאות אלפי טונות של פצצות הוטלו על המתקנים הצבאיים והתעשייתיים, אבל אפילו לא פצצה אחת על אושוויץ, על תאי הגזים, על המשרפות. כל יום הושמדו שם אלפי יהודים, כל יום הוטלו באזור אלפי טונות של פצצות בריטיות ואמריקאיות – אבל אפילו אחת (!) לא הוטלה על מתקני ההשמדה של העם היהודי. אין היום צל של ספק, שבכל אותן שנתיים ידעו גם האמריקאיים וגם הבריטים בדיוק מה נעשה באושוויץ ובשאר מחנות ההשמדה, אבל דחו בשיטתיות כל הצעה להפסיק אפילו לרגע את השמדת היהודים.
    אפשר היום לקבוע בודאות – האמריקאים והבריטים לא היו אדישים לגורלה של יהדות אירופה, הם היו פעילים מלאים בהשמדתה ובחיסולה!
    האחריות על השואה האיומה של העם היהודי באירופה, שבה נספו כ-8 מיליון יהודים (6 בהשמדה ישירה ו-2 ברעב ובמגפות כתוצאה עקיפה של ההשמדה) מוטלת על כתפי הבריטים והאמריקאים ולא רק על כתפי גרמניה ושותפותיה באירופה.
    גם לאחר השואה לא מילאה בריטניה את חובתה המשפטית, המוסרית והאנושית, ושערי הארץ נשארו נעולים גם למאות אלפי ניצולי השואה. במקום לקולטם בארץ גירשה אותם בריטניה למחנות מעצר בקפריסין, בגרמניה ובאפריקה – רק לא בביתם.
    אבל מסתבר, שהשואה באירופה הייתה רק השלב הראשון בניסיון של אומות העולם להשמיד את העם היהודי. השלב השני היה עם הקמתה של מדינת ישראל בתש”ח (1948).
    מדינת ישראל הוקמה על בסיס החלטת האו”ם מי”ז בכסלו תש”ח (29.11.1947), שקבעה שבארץ ישראל צריכות לקום שתי מדינות, אחת יהודית ואחת ערבית, מיד עם סיום המנדט הבריטי. התנועה הציונית קיבלה את ההחלטה והתארגנה לביצועה, אבל המדינות הערביות שהקיפו את ארץ ישראל – מצרים, ירדן, עיראק, סוריה ולבנון – סירבו לקבל את ההחלטה והתארגנו למלחמה שמטרתה חיסול המדינה היהודית מיד עם הקמתה. ואכן, מיד עם הקמתה ב-ה’ באייר תש”ח (14.5.1948) הותקפה מדינת ישראל ע”י צבאותיהן של חמש המדינות הערביות, שהיו מצוידים בנשק בריטי וצרפתי משוכלל ופעלו בחסות בריטית וצרפתית (הלגיון הירדני היה תחת פיקוד בריטי ישיר). מול הצבאות הערבים התייצבה המדינה הצעירה, דלה באוכלוסייה ובמשאבים – 600,000 תושבים שמתוכם ניצולי שואה רבים – וחסרת נשק כמעט לחלוטין. והנה באה הבגידה הגדולה – ארצות הברית ובריטניה, שתי המעצמות העולמיות, הטילו אמברגו נשק מוחלט וקפדני על… מדינת ישראל. הן פתחו במערכה חסרת תקדים נגד כל ניסיון להעביר נשק כלשהוא אל המדינה הצעירה, שעמדה תחת איום השמדה ממשי ומיידי. ובאותו זמן ממש זרם נשק כבד ללא הגבלה אל… מדינות ערב.
    אין שום דרך לפרש את התנהגותן של ארה”ב ובריטניה אלא כניסיון מודע ומכוון להשמיד את היישוב היהודי בארץ ולחסל את מדינת ישראל בעודה באיבה. כל זאת, למרות שמדינת ישראל קמה על בסיס החלטת האו”ם, קיבלה את החלטת האו”ם ופעלה רק בתוך המסגרת הלגיטימית מבחינה בינלאומית. דווקא ברגעים הקשים ביותר בהיסטוריה היהודית – הקמת המדינה לאחר השואה הנוראה – שוב בגד בנו העולם, שוב התכחש העולם לכל ההבטחות ופעל בציניות וברשעות להשמדתנו.
    איך לא רעדה ידו של טרומן, הנשיא האמריקאי, שהורה על אמברגו נשק על ישראל, שפירושו גזר דין מוות על מאות אלפי יהודים, שלוש שנים לאחר השואה? קשה להאמין, אבל העובדות הן עובדות.
    אלמלא הקב”ה א-לוהי ישראל, שחפץ בגאולת ישראל, ומסירות הנפש העצומה של הנוער העברי בארץ ישראל – לא היה נשאר יהודי אחד בארץ. שילמנו מחיר יקר על עצמאותנו – כ-8,000 הרוגים ולמעלה מ-10,000 פצועים קשה – מחיר שניתן היה לצמצמו בהרבה אילו עמד לרשותנו נשק יעיל יותר להגנתנו.
    והנה, כנגד כל הסיכויים ניצחה מדינת ישראל הקטנה את חמש המדינות הערביות. צה”ל הרחיב את גבולות המדינה מעבר לגבולותיה עפ”י החלטת האו”ם, ובין השאר פרץ לסיני ועמד להשתלט על ירושלים העתיקה והרי חברון. אבל אז הופעל לחץ בינלאומי עצום על ישראל לעצור, לסגת, להפסיק את המלחמה. ישראל נעתרה, ובחסות האו”ם נחתמו הסכמי שביתת הנשק בין ישראל לבין מדינות ערב.
    במסגרת ההסכמים התחייבה ירדן, למשל, לאפשר גישה חופשית ליהודים אל הכותל המערבי בירושלים העתיקה, שריד מבית המקדש שחרב לפני כ-2,000 שנה. במשך אלפיים שנה נהגו יהודים לפקוד את המקום הקדוש הזה ולהתפלל שם. והנה, יום לאחר חתימת ההסכמים התכחשה ירדן להתחייבותה ולא אפשרה לאף יהודי להגיע אל הכותל המערבי ואל שאר המקומות הקדושים לעם ישראל שנשארו תחת שלטון ירדני.
    האם האו”ם פעל? האם המעצמות התערבו? האם האפיפיור מחה? האם בית המשפט הבינלאומי דרש מירדן לקיים את ההסכמים? צדקתם, שום דבר לא נעשה, העולם שתק. אז מה קרה אם יהודים לא יכולים להגיע אל הכותל המערבי, או אל מערת המכפלה בחברון או אל קבר רחל בבית לחם? שום דבר לא קרה שמצדיק את התערבות העולם.
    אתם יודעים, בדיוק אותו דבר יקרה אם, חלילה, מדינת ישראל תתפתה להבטחותיכם שוב ותסמוך על כל מיני הסכמים, שיאפשרו גישה חופשית למקומות הקדושים. הערבים אל יקיימו את ההסכמים, כפי שלא קיימו אף הסכם שנחתם איתם, ואתם תשתקו ולא תתערבו, כפי שתמיד שתקתם. ואם ישראל תנסה לממש בכוח את ההסכמים, אתם תהיו הראשונים לגנות אותה ולהשמיץ אותה ואף להחרים אותה, ממש כפי שאתם עושים בימים אלה.
    כל הערבויות שתתנו לנו שוות כקליפת השום, כי ראינו איך אתם עומדים מאחורי ההבטחות שלכם ומאחורי הערבויות שלכם.
    לסיום, אני מבקש להביא עוד דוגמא קטנה אבל מייצגת. בניגוד לכל ההסכמים ההדדיים בין ישראל למצרים (וגם בניגוד לכל האמנות הבינלאומיות), חסמה מצרים בתשכ”ז (1967) את מיצרי טיראן בים סוף בפני ישראל. הדרך הימית של ישראל לאפריקה ולאסיה נסגרה. כעשר שנים קודם לכן נסוגה ישראל מסיני על בסיס של ערבויות אמריקאיות ובינלאומיות, שבמקרה של חסימת ים סוף בפני שיט ישראלי – אמריקה עם בעלות בריתה באירופה יפרצו את ההסגר ויאפשרו לאניות ישראליות מעבר חופשי במצרי טיראן. והנה התרחש התסריט הצפוי – המצרים הפרו את ההסכמים, סילקו את האו”ם מסיני ומעזה, הכניסו את הצבא המצרי לסיני וחסמו את ים סוף. מדינת ישראל מיהרה לשלוח את שר החוץ, אבא אבן, לוושינגטון כדי לדרוש מהאמריקאים לממש את התחייבותם ולפתוח את ים סוף. והנה בפגישתו עם הנשיא ג’ונסון קיבל שר החוץ הישראלי את התשובה החצופה ביותר שניתן להעלות על הדעת: “לא מצאנו את מסמך הערבויות בארכיון שלנו”. טוב, ענה אבא אבן, אני הבאתי מישראל עותק של המסמך. ושוב החוצפה האמריקאית: איננו סומכים על המסמכים שלכם, אולי הם מזויפים. אלמלא הופיעו הדברים בספרי ההיסטוריה, היינו בטוחים שזה סיפור בדוי והזוי. ככה שוות ההתחייבויות וההבטחות שלכם. ישראל נאלצה לצאת לבדה למלחמה נגד ארבע מדינות ערביות, תוך שמוטל עליה אמברגו נשק מוחלט ע”י הצרפתים, שהיו מקור הנשק העיקרי של ישראל באותה תקופה. שוב בגדתם בנו דווקא ברגעים הקשים ביותר, ברגעי המבחן. אנחנו בטוחים שגם בעתיד תבגדו בנו דווקא ברגעי המבחן, ולכן אסור לנו לסמוך עליכם, “משענת קנה רצוץ” כדברי הנביא ירמיהו.
    אתם יודעים, אם אתם רוצים להוכיח לנו שמשהו השתנה ביחסכם לישראל ולעם היהודי, בואו נתחיל עם משהו קונקרטי. לפני שאתם דורשים מאיתנו לסגת מירושלים, ומיהודה ושומרון, שבהם נמצאים כל המקומות המקודשים לעם היהודי, שבהם נמצאים כל השטחים האסטרטגיים שנחוצים לביטחוננו ולעתידו של העם היהודי – בואו נראה פעם אחת, שאתם מקיימים את הבטחתכם.
    הבטחתם שוב ושוב – ארה”ב, בריטניה, צרפת, גרמניה ועוד מדינות – שלא תאפשרו לאיראן, שמאיימת בהשמדת ישראל ובמחיקתה מהמפה, להשיג נשק גרעיני. בואו נראה איך אתם מקיימים את הבטחתכם. בואו נראה איך אתם מחסלים את כל המתקנים הגרעיניים של איראן, את כל אתרי הטילים הבליסטיים שלהם. לעת עתה אתם רק מדברים ומבטיחים ומדברים, ואיראן מתקדמת בצעדי ענק אל הפצצה הגרעינית בלי תגובה ראויה שלכם, ואולי אפילו בחסותכם. בואו נראה איך אתם מפילים את משטר האייטולות, שהכריז בגלוי שמטרתו העליונה היא השמדת ישראל. בואו תוכיחו לנו, ולו פעם אחת, שאתם לא שותפים סמויים מאחורי הקלעים עם התוכנית האיראנית להשמדת ישראל, וכל הדיבורים היפים שלכם אינם אלא זריית חול בעיניים כדי להרדים ולבלבל אותנו, ממש כפי שעשיתם בזמן השואה, ובזמן הקמת המדינה ובזמן מלחמת ששת הימים (1967).
    כנראה גם הפעם ניאלץ להתמודד לבד עם האיום עלינו, ובעזרת ה’ א-לוהי ישראל שחפץ בגאולת עמו ישראל גם ננצח. אתם תמשיכו עם הרמייה שלכם ועם הרשעות שלכם, ממש כפי שתיאר אתכם דוד המלך בספר תהילים: “אשר פיהם דיבר שווא, וימינם ימין שקר”.

    ד”ר חגי בן ארצי, תושב בית אל, הוא מרצה להיסטוריה יהודית באוניברסיטת בר אילן.

  120. E.G. says:

    incognito,

    What do you mean by the problem is not intellectual?

    The subject addressed by Finkielkraut was teaching the Shoah (that’s the conference’s theme).

  121. Michelle Schatzman says:

    Incog and E.G.,

    I do not think that you are reading Fink’s speech correctly. He *does not suggest* to enlarge the framework, and consider all victims. He suggests

    (1) descendants of victims are not victims, hence, end the concurrence of victims ; in contrast, memory is OK. Remembering the dead does not consist in taking their place, but in honoring them.

    (2) revive European culture. He observes that Europe does not even belong to itself, that it is now completely inconsistent from the cultural point of view. Therefore, it is very difficult to ask people to integrate into a non existent framework. It makes also life very difficult for the Jews (there is a typo in sentence 6 on page 6, and I oculd not reconstitute the correct sentence), since Europe is post-national, without walls and strong identities, while Israel is building a wall of stone (OK, of concrete or steel wire, in fact).

    His conclusion is to quote Ruth Klüger, who was in Auschwitz and refuses to be subsumed by Auschwitz.

    Fink stoppe some time ago to give solutions. I appreciate that!

  122. E.G. says:

    Michelle,

    I’m afraid that I wasn’t clear enough. The enlargement is in the focus: from the victims to their heritage (that indeed has nothing to do with Auschwitz).

  123. Michelle Schatzman says:

    Reading the talkbacks to the “Le Monde” article re. Finkielkraut and Zimeray is a masochistic exercise. Most of the talkbackers did not read the article and simply disseminate their hatred of Israel. A few sane voices recall that Fink does not support the settlers and was part of the Geneva initiative, but they are lonely.

    I *do not want* to buy the right to talkback on “Le Monde” (something like 8 or 12 euros per month), because I consider the readers of “Le Monde” and its talkbackers a lost cause. They are indeed proving very clearly the case made by Fink.

    Sad.

  124. Michelle Schatzman says:

    E.G., #132 : OK, thanks.

  125. E.G. says:

    Michelle,

    You *do not want* whereas I refuse to buy the right to talkback @le Monde.

    What do you think it’ll look like with the new owners?

  126. incognito says:

    The enlargement is in the focus: from the victims to their heritage (that indeed has nothing to do with Auschwitz).

    I understand that you are just explaining Fink’s argument, but I wonder if you agree with him that this will have any effect? Do you really believe that the irrational, rabid, blind and instinctive hatred of jews and zionists can be attenuated by focusing not on the victims to their heritage?

    BTW, the victims were killed in large part to kill the heritage, and if the current haters even comprehended the concept of heritage, I would bet it’s one they want to kill too.

  127. incognito says:

    Michelle,

    These are all arguments that only a professional intellectual, disconnected from the reality of life and survival can make. They will have no effect on the enemy.

  128. incognito says:

    He observes that Europe does not even belong to itself, that it is now completely inconsistent from the cultural point of view.

    You can say that again and in more ways than one:

    [MUST READ]
    Europe’s Long Road to the Mosque
    WALTER LAQUEUR
    http://www.standpointmag.co.uk/node/3146/full

  129. incognito says:

    What do you mean by the problem is not intellectual?
    The subject addressed by Finkielkraut was teaching the Shoah (that’s the conference’s theme).

    See my comments above. No matter HOW you teach the Shoah, it won’t prevent another.

  130. Michelle Schatzman says:

    Incog,

    the Walter Laqueur piece is good, but it certainly does not prove that Europe does not belong to itself, its subject matter is something else : the increase of a muslim population that does not want to integrate.

    The criticism of Fink is about Europe having lost its conscience of itself as the place of a common culture.

    Fink is *not* a politician. At least, he talks rather clearly. Then, one can dismiss his points of view as impractical, as for anyone else.

    Evne if Fink is impractical, I consider him healthy. Refusing to lie is a pretty good first step. Reminds me of

    Incog, however, besides acting as the Chinese in Belleville (and as the man who had a gun ?), what are *your* plans? Or maybe, you are convinced that no plan can be useful, as you stated several times?

    Ante Ciliga wrote a book entitled “Dix ans au pays du mensonge déconcertant” (Ten years in the country of the unsettling lie) about his experience in the Soviet Union from ’25 to ’36. Unfortunately I did not buy it, but I love its title.

    I believe that it is quite educative to read the talkbacks in “Le Monde” as a list of articles of faith in the new religion of the Big Lie – guess what it is, and it is plain that Fink simply does not come across, since a large proportion of the talkbackers simply accuse him of defending Israel’s policy by using the memory of the destruction of European Jews – which he precisely does not do.

    Incog, you do have experience with a country of unsettling lie… so you know the value of trying not to lie.

  131. Michelle Schatzman says:

    E.G.,

    my expression is milder than yours re. Le Monde, but my conviction is exactly as strong. This is a newspaper I stopped buying in the seventies. There were several reasons, but the most important was that “Le Monde” consistantly gave a totally paranoid description of West Germany, Italy and the US. Professionnally, I travelled to these places, and I knew that the reports by “Le Monde” were pure inventions.

    I also hated the reports of the Portuguese “revolution” in 1975. They were totally partial in favor of the extreme left in the movement of the captains, and the result was that they did not help the readers understand how and why, they were finally ousted from portuguese political life.

    However, before the fall of the USSR, there was a long period when the reporters of “Le Monde” did a wonderful job : they had access to figureheads in the samizdat movement and found ways to use their input without endangering them. The people in charge of USSR knew russian and loved the Russians. That makes a difference, indeed.

    A good article on “Le Monde” by Luc Rozenzweig:

    http://www.causeur.fr/le-monde-cest-de-la-marque,6718

  132. E.G. says:

    incognito,

    On this issue, Fink is highly connected and spot on.

    I’m not sure I’m well representing Fink’s view on the shift in focus, he’s not very clear about it. But it’s a thing I’ve been thinking is necessary in order to realize the magnitude of Hitler’s project.

    Of course the people were assassinated in order to eradicate the heritage (IMO enlarging the focus must not come at the expense of the full account of the death industry), but it started by burning books. And synagogues, etc. By declaring that some art was degenerate… that some values were corrupted/corrupting… By suppressing freedom of expression… By changing the laws…

    Europe has not recovered from that cultural devastation, and it’s coming again (IMO via the Mufti who perpetuated that Nazi legacy). The lesson of the Shoah has not been learnt. Eliminating the Jewish heritage was the first stage. The next one was eliminating anything “contaminated” by that Jewish heritage: Christianity and its Jewish-based values, all the cultural elements that had been influenced by Judeo-Christian approaches… That goes deep and far. And touches everybody.

    Will presenting things in this way make people think? I doubt those who are already in the mindset of Judeophobia will let any idea that doesn’t fit their mindset penetrate. But there are still many “unattained” persons. Confused people. People who won’t accept responsibility for their parents’ or grand-parents’ resignation and who are not (fully) aware that they’re being led to a similar path. And children, youth…

    As I stated from the beginning, you may well be right that it’s too late and too ambitious.
    But then, if it happens again, all the articles and books and conferences — the intellectual explanations, analyses and tentative solutions and battles will be gone too. Destroyed.
    What’s the point in writing them, and why read them?

  133. incognito says:

    An Update from Christopher Hitchens
    by Christopher Hitchens
    June 30, 2010, 4:00 PM

    I have been advised by my physician that I must undergo a course of chemotherapy on my esophagus. This advice seems persuasive to me. I regret having had to cancel so many engagements at such short notice.

    Sad, but probably self-caused by heavy smoking. I hope he gets well.

  134. incognito says:

    the Walter Laqueur piece is good, but it certainly does not prove that Europe does not belong to itself, its subject matter is something else : the increase of a muslim population that does not want to integrate.

    And you mean to tell me that I draw an incorrect implication from it? What will be the consequence of the demographics and lack of integration that Laqueur refers to in terms of who will Europe belongs to?

    The criticism of Fink is about Europe having lost its conscience of itself as the place of a common culture.

    He has stated the obvious, ain’t it?

    Incog, however, besides acting as the Chinese in Belleville (and as the man who had a gun ?), what are *your* plans?

    This is the only plan which can have some effect. All these intellectuals playing with consciences are a waste of air.

    and it is plain that Fink simply does not come across<b., since a large proportion of the talkbackers simply accuse him of defending Israel’s policy by using the memory of the destruction of European Jews – which he precisely does not

    Bingo. Exactly my point.

    you do have experience with a country of unsettling lie… so you know the value of trying not to lie.

    If I understand you correctly I don’t find the lies you are comparing comparable. Perhaps I am missing something.

  135. incognito says:

    The next one was eliminating anything “contaminated” by that Jewish heritage: Christianity and its Jewish-based values, all the cultural elements that had been influenced by Judeo-Christian approaches…

    I’ve been always troubled by the term ‘Judeo-Christian’.
    I don’t like to put them together this way. I think the Christian tradition is alive and well in Europe at least insofar as the jews are concerned.

    There was an episode on the Daily Show when a Christian , a Muslim and a Jew news men argued on everything but the former two agreed on “kill the jew”.

    But there are still many “unattained” persons. Confused people.

    Too few too late. I am reading a book titled 1938 by one Giles McDonough. It is a month-by-month description of the consequences of the Nazi government which focuses on the policies against the jews and the reactions inside and outside Germany to them. Sometimes I have to pinch myself to realize that I am reading a book about 1938 and not about 2010.

    What’s the point in writing them, and why read them?

    Indeed. The west does no longer produce the capacity to be interested in and capable of comprehending them and when the new overlords take over, the Nazis will seem like amateurs at destroying heritage.

  136. incognito says:

    Secret Israeli emissary fails to cool Turkey’s animosity
    http://www.debka.com/article/8881/

    If true, this is yet another example of what happens when you go hat in hand to islamists. Israel refuses to learn this lesson, particularly Bibi and the likes of Ben Eliezer, which endangers Israel’s existence to the point of unavoidability.

  137. E.G. says:

    incognito,

    In unofficially Catholic European countries, Judeo-Christian is a rather common term, designating Catholics’ recognition of their heritage. They believe the Church/Apostles’ version is an improved model of Judaism. If/when they shift from the love frame to the mutual resect one, agreeing and accepting to differ on some issues, they/we discover there are quite a few shared values.
    Ben-Arzi’s going too far talking about trust. Shared interests and wishes to stick to shared values is more relevant to people. Sometimes, one ends up trusting one’s neighbour and, in many cases, it saved lives. But Christians do feel betrayed and neglected nowadays, and while some think the Juice monopolise the empathy, others empathise with the Juice, feeling unjustly discriminated.

    I think we’re still somewhere between 1933 and 1936.
    But it’s not a straightforward comparison, and there shouldn’t be one.There are similarities and differences in the modus operandi. Islamofascism is indeed a beta, improved, model. If only for operating on a cult of the French revolution, whose Terror phase inspired the Soviets. (Sounds like Had Gadiya, I know).

  138. incognito says:

    Improved model of judaism my foot. They may think so, but if they do they fool themselves. Christianity is rooted in Paul who was an unstable self-hating jew who hijacked jesus for his own purposes and invented something which had nothing to do with judaism.

    I know what christians believe and I am not impressed.
    Anti-semitism started with christianity. And you well know what I think about religion in general.

    Ben-Arzi’s going too far talking about trust.

    No, it is in Israel’s interest not to trust the world. There is not one instance in which they kept their word. I remember well how all the EU bigshots — Brown, Merkel, Sarkozy and Berlusconi — all came to Israel to support Israel’s retreat from Cast Lead and promised to guarantee that the blockade will be enforced. Comes the flotilla and they quickly went into “the blockade is unsustainable”. Spineless all of them.

    As to shared interests, they are too weak, bankrupt and paralyzed by their muslim 5th columns to see the shared interests, no matter how much evidence is under their nose. Whoever still thinks that Israel should rely on them for its future ought to have their head examined.

    I think we’re still somewhere between 1933 and 1936.

    Yes, I know. But I’ve been accurate in my thinking to date so I’ll stick to 1938.

  139. Michelle Schatzman says:

    Incog,

    re your #147, what Fink is saying, and I concur with him, is that there are two effects : (a) Europeans not being anymore interested in their own culture (b) muslim populations who do not want to integrate.

    He thinks that (a) has a strong influence on (b) : why integrate into a culture that does not anymore believe in itself?

    Hence, I agree with E.G.’s #145 : Hitler did not only destroy most of European Jews and their culture, he also destroyed a good part of European culture, through a delayed effect.

    I say delayed, because, being 60 years old, I did benefit from a standard good french education (not only schooling), because the generation who taught me were all born and educated before WWII – with a few exceptions. Going to Paris schools, I had mostly old teachers, who had had a good and long carreer.

    In France, Fink has the image of a “passéiste”, one who regrets the past all the time, a melancholic man. He recently published together with Alain Badiou, a well-known maoist philosopher, a joint book reporting a series of dispute between them. Unfortunately Badiou, who is a very unpleasant man, is much more manipulative and comes across much better than Fink.

    Heck!

  140. Cynic says:

    Michelle,

    Hitler did not only destroy most of European Jews and their culture, he also destroyed a good part of European culture, through a delayed effect.

    Wow, that effect has hit most parts of the Western World for sure.
    Actually I think it is due to the expanded clout communications received from the advances in technology that permitted things like eMptyTV to invade the “clouded” minds of the post WW2 pop cultures under the PC upbringing of Dr. Spock & co.

  141. E.G. says:

    Cynic,

    The delay is due to both the lack of denazification and to the 2 alliances with the USSR.

    I’m a Spock child. No complaints.

  142. Michelle Schatzman says:

    E.G.,

    yes, I did read the surlering reference you gave. Before you gave it.

    OK, in fact, I am usually in an ultracharitable mood, and slow to anger. The thirteen attributes do have some influence on me ;-).

    I have trouble regretting the pre-WWII world. My mother remembers the electoral propaganda of antisemitic candidates. It was legal at the time, in France.

    I am also a Spock child. I also have memories of the pre-’68 french society. And it was so blocked, so backward in many respects… ’68 let us breath more easily.

  143. E.G. says:

    Michelle and incognito,

    As far as I understand, Fink’s nostalgia is for pre-PoMo values. That’s the heritage being lost.
    For ex., if discipline doesn’t mean anything, what’s the sense of inter-disciplinarity ? What’s a breakthrough if there are no limits?
    It’s not “going backwards” he advocates, rather, coming (back) to one’s senses.

    Another point we did not discuss but I think is important, is the perception that Shoah teaching focussing on the death industry has helped establish in people’s minds: Jews as victims. (and the exploitation of this representation by propaganda).
    But Jews are not only victims, and such a categorization is degrading and humiliating. Both before and after the Shoah (and often during it) Jews are much more accurately described as resourceful.

  144. Eliyahu says:

    The US State Dept was promoting rock music long before MTV. The State Dept claimed that rock was the flower of American culture. The Soviet commies were derided for trying to keep rock out. Don’t forget that MTV was not close to its inception.

    by the way, those who believe in Western cultural decline might read some of the works of Pitirim Sorokin of Harvard on this subject.

  145. Michelle Schatzman says:

    E.G.,

    the way the Shoah was taught is worse than presenting the Jews as victims. It reduces the Jews to exclusive victim status, and it totally ignores the cultural wealth of the Jews from all walks of life. Its prescription is “love your dead Jew better than yourself”. This is what I call the judaism of cemeteries. I made a conscious decision a little more than 25 years ago against that kind of judaism.

    Of course, considering the level of disagreement among Jews, it is clear why they could agree to teach the Shoah with almost no mention of how much culture was destroyed. Some claim (and justly IMHO) that the pre-WWII Jews were the real Europeans : polyglot, having family all around the place (or almost), diverse, creative and resourceful.

    Is teaching pluralism sooooo difficult?

    This way of teaching the description of the Jews of Europe is exactly what makes it possible to many people to think that the only good Jew is a dead Jew. The assassinated Jews were not particularly better than other people. They were murdered for being Jews, and a decent society considers that being a Jew is not cause for punishment.

    The assassinated Jews were not saints – though the halacha considers the people who were assassinated for being Jews as קדושים. But just in virtue of their death, not in virtue of their life.

    The way the shoah is taught blurs the distinction between being killed while innocent and being a good person. All the moralistic discourse about Israel having to conform to higher standards than any other state is pure gobbledygook, motivated by this blurring of boundaries.

    If Jews must be held to higher moral standards than anyone else, then, obviously they are going to fail. And moreover, if access to the victim status means that all your transgressions are pardoned, there is ample room for all sorts of perversions.

    Kadosh means separate, not saint. So, I fully agree with keeping things separate : the child of a victim is not a victim. The child of a refugee is not a refugee. Disciplines must remain separate as long as they do not share questions and methods.

    OK, E.G., I guess that I am ranting, and that I agree with you.

  146. incognito says:

    He thinks that (a) has a strong influence on (b) : why integrate into a culture that does not anymore believe in itself?

    I very much doubt it: this is hardly the reason why muslims don’t integrate in Europe and they could not care less what europe thinks of its own culture.

    Hitler did not only destroy most of European Jews and their culture, he also destroyed a good part of European culture, through a delayed effect.

    I am not sure about that either. In any case, there is one part of the culture he did not destroy: anti-semitism. And actually (b) reinforces (a) much more than your vice-versa.

    In France, Fink has the image of a “passéiste”, one who regrets the past all the time, a melancholic man.

    I sympathise, but it looks like he did not learn the important lessons from the past. And I am always suspicious of lefties, even the more reasonable among them.

  147. E.G. says:

    Michelle,

    קדוש is holy, sacred (and saint). Not separate (Nifrad).

    I realised something was very wrong about teaching the Shoah in France when I heard, a few years ago, a survivor’s adolescent grandson ask what’s the difference between the Shoah and any other genocide.

    Even a victim is not only a victim. Except for children who had not enough time to live before they were murdered, each and every person had done something before. And most survivors also did things once the death threat was over. So referring to them only as victims is utter disrespect.

    I think Heinsohn’s “uniquely unique” thesis is an eye opener for all.

  148. E.G. says:

    incognito,

    I very much doubt it: this is hardly the reason why muslims don’t integrate in Europe and they could not care less what europe thinks of its own culture.

    So how do you explain a better integration in the past?
    Mine is that there was much more social pressure to adopt the ways (i.e., culture) of the hosting society.

  149. incognito says:

    I have trouble regretting the pre-WWII world. My mother remembers the electoral propaganda of antisemitic candidates. It was legal at the time, in France.

    Hitler did not evolve in a vacuum and his regime would not have been as effective with the final solution had it not tapped into the existing culture.

    While reading 1938 the author describes examples of revulsion by germans at the treatment of jews and even efforts to help. But it is very clear that these were individual cases and even they were passive. The vast majority at best acquiesced, even at a stage in which the Nazis have not yet managed to build the full terror regime.

    And the economic benefits from stealing the wealth of the jews were simply too tempting even for the less anti-semitic.

  150. incognito says:

    So referring to them only as victims is utter disrespect.

    I would agree, but up to a point. But I also can see how not reducing them to victimhood could backfire as an educational approach in a hostile, irrational environment, where knowledge and ability to reason, particularly critical faculties.

  151. Michelle Schatzman says:

    In modern hebrew, קדוש, indeed is “saint”. But the traditional meaning is “separate”. I can’t remember where I learnt that. Have to check… sometime.

  152. incognito says:

    So how do you explain a better integration in the past? Mine is that there was much more social pressure to adopt the ways (i.e., culture) of the hosting society.

    To the extent that that was a factor, it isn’t a major one.

    It has more to do with:

    1. The difference in kind and goals between the old generations of immigrants and the new and I recall reading some good articles about this. In particular, the lots of muslim spouses brought in and radical imams.

    2. Numbers: muslims have been getting closer to tipping point mass and increasingly they are younger.

    3. Rise of the welfare state

    4. Fear instilled by decades of islamic violence in and out of EU

    Some of the recent immigration is underlied by organized intent by radical islam to bring about political change demographically.

  153. incognito says:

    Between the 2 of them Bibi and Barak are destroying Israel’s survival:

    Missteps on Turkey weaken Netanyahu before talks with Obama
    http://www.debka.com/article/8882/

  154. E.G. says:

    Michelle,

    Separation is an implication of sanctity. It’s clearly distinguished from the secular and profane.

    At any rate, those who perished in the Shoah are not called saints but sometimes martyrs – they died on Kiddush HaShem – which doesn’t make them saints. At most, it is their memory (and recalling their torment) that is/should be sacred. I needn’t explain the nuance.

  155. E.G. says:

    incognito,

    Type Heinsohn and “uniquely unique” in your browser and read that 2000 paper. Please.

    #164
    I think you’re reversing the process. In the beginning (mid 80′s), there was no hostility. Lots of ignorance and an awfully distorted official history. Here the term narrative fits.

  156. Michelle Schatzman says:

    E.G., in Haifa, there is a רחוב קדושי יאשי, with a large congress center there. The street name obviously refers to the pogrom of Jassy in 1941.

    So someone used that term for the victims. There are many other instances. So, saints, certainly not, but marttyrs indeed. Qedoshey, because they died on Qidush Hashem?

  157. Michelle Schatzman says:

    In the meantime, I found and read Heinsohn’s paper. Quite interesting.

    One of my dati friend explained to me some time ago, that Hitler hated Jews, because they were the chosen people, and he wanted the Germans to be the chosen people.

    Probably true too, and another instance of aa non-jew believing more in election than jews themselves.

    Interesting that a number of antisemitic talkbackers on french newspapers often invoke also the election, which prove that they believe in it – but probably with the wrong interpretation of what it is all about.

    Were it not so repulsive, I would consider that antisemitism is quite a fascinating phenomenon. Like I say about my cancer: a remarkable biological phenomenon, but unfortunately the lab is inside my abdomen.

    Anyone read Susan Sontag’s “cancer as a metaphor”?

  158. incognito says:

    Type Heinsohn and “uniquely unique” in your browser and read that 2000 paper. Please.

    Got the link and will read it later today.

    In the beginning (mid 80’s), there was no hostility. Lots of ignorance and an awfully distorted official history. Here the term narrative fits.

    I thought we were talking about holocaust education now.
    The past cannot be modified.

  159. incognito says:

    Michelle,

    Regarding the election, insofar as we are talking about current anti-semitism, what actually eats away at its proponents — hence the intense hatred — is that the jews justify the election. That explains why that is characteristic of the left: like Hitler they deem themselves the only moral and progressive in the world.
    The jews beat them at both hands down and they just cannot tolerate that.

    The situation is similar for islamists: they are indoctrinated with “Allah will ensure they will dominate the infidels and be successful”. Their utter failure vs. the infidel’s success must drive them nuts.

  160. incognito says:

    http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/rubin/323321

    Martin Kramer’s argument is critical: America does no longer have power, but it has the illusion of power.

  161. E.G. says:

    Mamichelle,

    As you well know, there are no saints – as in the Christian religion – in Judaism. Even Rabbi Akiva, whose torment was at least as horrendous as Rabbi Jesus’, is not a saint, and he’s mostly remembered for his wisdom and tenacity rather than for his atrocious execution.
    At most, one is considered a Tsaddik, one of 36 in a generation, who carries the world’s opprobrium on his self, in hope to spare the others.
    (Vous avez surement lu “Le dernier des Justes”)

    I found Heinsohn’s thesis much more convincing (despite his repeated use of “thou shalt not kill” instead of murder) than many other explanations of Hitler’s obsession about Jews and Judaism. The election/chosen people schtick is very old, probably yet another Church propaganda misinterpretation. We’re in the recycling era.

  162. incognito says:

    Hhhhmm, I wouldn’t be surprised:

    Report: Obama pressured Israel and Turkey to hold secret talks
    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/report-obama-pressured-israel-and-turkey-to-hold-secret-talks-1.299357

    What a bunch of incompetents the Israeli govt has.

  163. Michelle Schatzman says:

    E.G.,

    could Hitler have had several motivations? Concurring to the horrendous result?

  164. E.G. says:

    incognito,

    I thought we were talking about holocaust education now.

    Now, as Fink describes, is a consequence of the past.
    Those who discovered the Shoah in the mid-80s have been teaching it and formulating the curriculum.

    Meanwhile, the narrative burst and the adjustment has been agenda-bound (see:guilt). So people in the late 90s suddenly became responsible and guilty for their unacknowledged, unaccounted for, parents’ sins. And then other victims claimed their rights to victimhood.

    If you search a bit the L’Oréal heiress’ who’s now in the news history, you’ll easily discover that her father (the founder) and husband were pro-nazi virulent anti-Semites during most of WWII. The hubby held a few ministerial posts and was both a shield and a friend of Mittérand, himself a nazi sympathizer, who turned less national and more socialist later. But he was a man who never failed his true friends’ trust. Only those who foolishly believed they were on friendly terms with him were betrayed.

  165. E.G. says:

    Mamichelle,

    As far as I know (and it’s not much), Hitler and Goebbels recruited and used anything they could to feed the Nazi machine. They were neither the first nor the last to use the Jews as scapegoats.

    What Heinsohn clarifies is the basic reason of Hitler’s need to get rid of the Jewish gift to Humanity, one fundamental part of the Jewish heritage.
    From the shift from Human sacrifice (Isaac) to to a more symbolic animal sacrifice to the one God, to the highly codified life and death ethic (summed in the Thou shalt not murder commandment), and the life-preserving Judaic doctrine, such an agenda is in total contradiction to an expansionist, supremacist one. So Hitler had to get rid of it in order to “relieve” his troops of the remorse of transgression (whatever incognito argues about the Paulian transformation, this stuff was passed on). What else can explain Hitler’s fascination and insistence on pre-Christian Germano-Teutonic mythology?
    Tree-hugging, Gaia adulation, and human sacrifice for the Cause. That’s some Human’s rights that are worth other Humans’, not quite as Human as the former, ones.

  166. Sergio says:

    Incognito,

    Great article by Weinthal. What a mess undigested guilt made of European intellectuals. As Wistrich comments somewhere, Europe seems prone to abdicate, cringe and crawl all the time. Sad.

  167. incognito says:

    What a mess undigested guilt made of European intellectuals. As Wistrich comments somewhere, Europe seems prone to abdicate, cringe and crawl all the time. Sad.

    I’ve been pondering this “guilt theory” and while I have no doubt that it is a significant factor, my sense is that the sense of moral inferiority Israel gives these “progressives” who consider themselves and their doctrine salt of the earth. This is particularly true of the younger generations form whom the Holocaust is an abstraction.

  168. incognito says:

    Incidentally, in Weinthal:

    Consider the German Catholic bishops Gregor Maria Hanke and Walter Mixa, who, while visiting Israel in March 2007, equated it with Nazi Germany.

    If you had to bet, would you say that these two were motivated by the guilt over the Shoah, or by good old catholic anti-judaic hostility?

  169. incognito says:

    Here we go again:

    Gov’t: PA may control Gaza crossings
    Israel considers responsibility transfer under Abbas, US pressure.

  170. incognito says:

    Britain decriminalizes vigilantism against Israel
    http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2010/07/britain-decriminalizes-vigilantism.html

    Looks like Europe has indeed erased its own traditions and culture, among them the rule of law. Can’t wait for Sharia to be applied.

  171. RedPencil says:

    Britain decriminalizes vigilantism against Israel
    http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2010/07/britain-decriminalizes-vigilantism.html

    Looks like Europe has indeed erased its own traditions and culture, among them the rule of law. Can’t wait for Sharia to be applied.

    That is scandalous.
    I recently found some Old News that puts it in a context.

    Apparently there’s something of a disparity between Jewish and Islamic studies at Oxford.

    http://littlegreenfootballs.com/page/217816_A_Tale_of_Two_Oxfords

    I don’t think the Oxford dons would even begin to see a problem here.

  172. Cynic says:

    Some more in the way of transfactual fauxtauxing of stories.
    UK Telegraph Tries its Hand At Anti-Israel Fauxtography

    Not all fauxtography involves doctoring of recent news photographs; sometimes news sources take an old picture and change the context which also is using photographs to fake a news story

  173. incognito says:

    I don’t think the Oxford dons would even begin to see a problem here.

    Top western universities, including american, prostitute themselves for arab money in various ways. The economic recession has reduced their funds considerably; the cost of education has become so great that not many can afford it; and bankrupt govts cannot subsidize students the way they used to. Rich arabs exploit this.

    And it’s not just universities — arabs and increasingly chinese own the west and therefore undermine it.

  174. incognito says:

    Some more in the way of transfactual fauxtauxing of stories.

    There are media outfits that are systematically doing this sort of thing and it it intentional. The Telegraph has not been one of them and sometimes laziness or incompetence ends up in this sort of thing (they did apologize and replaced the photo).

    But it may well be that newspapers cannot survive today without some anti-Israel propaganda, and it is finally sneaking into all of them. One should keep in mind that when it comes to the WB and Ghaza local “newsmen” are used and without honest, knowledgeable and very careful editors, this sort of stuff gets through.

  175. incognito says:

    View from the Left

    Nevertheless, the gravity of the Estonian president’s position is dwarfed by the thunderous and shameful silence with which his remarks were received in Israel. No one got up to protest – neither the president, Shimon Peres, nor the aggressive foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman, who is so worried about Israel’s honor. Neither Yad Vashem nor the heads of the various Holocaust research institutes at the universities.

    This is why I keep saying that Israel is replicating the jewish diaspora response to the Nazis: shutting up thinking it will avoid worse treatment. We know how effective that was: it achieved the opposite.

    Try to educate these people on the Holocaust and see what you get.

  176. incognito says:

    Bibi and Barak are a lethal duo:

    http://www.carolineglick.com/e/2010/07/netanyahu-must-play-for-time.php

    Amazingly, Barak, after defending his utter failures as successes, wants now to replicate them in the West Bank, and seems to have learned nothing from his experience. And Bibi seems willing to buy it, so he has not learned anything either. Glick proves that he is all talk and no spine as I argued when he got a 2nd chance.

    Can Israel, in its circumstances today, live with 2 idiots instead of leadership?

    Those who forget the past are doomed to relive it. In Israel’s case, relive may not be right word.

  177. incognito says:

    And the consequences of idiocy:

    http://www.jcpa.org/text/security/amidror.pdf

  178. incognito says:

    More:

    Report: Israel to apologize to Turkey
    Ben-Eliezer denies agreeing to compensate for flotilla injuries.
    http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=180231

  179. incognito says:

    We have discussed the EU motives for anti-semitism, but in fact by its behavior Israel rationalizes and facilitates those attitudes.

    For example, while it has provided ample evidence of what transpired in the flotila case, exculpating itself for the consequences, it apparently agreed to apologize to Turkey. Doing this sort of thing — the govt did it several times to the US and others — it essentially admits guilt for what are false accusations.

    Similarly, with regards to the total acceptance of the pal narrative and accusations by EU and others, whenever it agrees to concessions to the pals, it confirms them. Indeed, when Israel signed the Oslo accords and accepted a pal state, it confirmed the nakba narrative.

    And when it caved on the Gaza blockade it confirmed the argument that the blockade was not sustainable.

    So Israel contributes to validate the propaganda as truth and invites further attacks.

    Not so the pals, which tells you who is likely to lose.

  180. incognito says:

    Compare this to Glick’s piece:

    http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC05.php?CID=3222

    I’ve never seen anything coming out of WI that said anything of significance. Bland crappola, typical of academics and wanna-be politicians who have a knack for being very verbose and saying nothing.

  181. incognito says:

    e.g.,

    I read Heinsohn and he makes a pretty persuasive case.

    There is one aspect, however, that puzzles: if he is correct, then exterminating the jews was, from Hitler’s perspective, a pragmatic means to the goal of killing the anti-genocide root. If so, this does not seem to entirely explain the rabid hatred and cruelty with which the jews were treated and killed. So there was something more to it than that.

    Heinsohn also makes it clear at the end that whatever Hitler’s motive was, the implementation and the cooperation with and indifference to it was driven by more mundane motives.

  182. Cynic says:

    incognito,

    Israel can learn from Egypt:

    Come on, you know very well that the media and those Euros protesting the killing are not going make a spectacle out of the behaviour of an Arab state.
    The incitement against Israel is now so great that British judges can release criminals into the streets because what they did was protesting Israel’s existence.

  183. E.G. says:

    incognito,

    If so, this does not seem to entirely explain the rabid hatred and cruelty with which the jews were treated and killed.

    Why not?
    (a) All remorse about killing had to be eliminated from Aryan soul;
    (b) If the Jews are the source of evil on Earth and for Humanity – guilty of abstract monotheism and the ethic code/10 commandments – this factor makes them worthy of the worse than worst (see: dehumanising etc.).

    In short, Jews were both the motive and a means.

    The “Final solution” was final only for the Jews. It was only the end of a phase for the Nazis.
    Besides, the extermination camps were unique but the other “death techniques” were not.

  184. Eliyahu says:

    incogn, I would not put the Chinese and the Arabs into the same category. The Chinese represent an ancient, creative civilization. The Arabs represent a destructive, parasitic culture — call it a civilization if you like.

  185. incognito says:

    Cynic,

    Come on, you know very well that the media and those Euros protesting the killing are not going make a spectacle out of the behaviour of an Arab state.

    C’mon, you know that I know. All the same, I think if Israel behaved like that from the start — not start now — it would have been better off.

    The incitement against Israel is now so great that British judges can release criminals into the streets because what they did was protesting Israel’s existence.

    It is I who posted the link to that above. Did you read Melanie Phillips on it? Apparently, the judge was born near arab Jaffa someplace. And they brought him out of retirement to judge the case. Very fishy stuff.

  186. incognito says:

    If the Jews are the source of evil on Earth and for Humanity – guilty of abstract monotheism and the ethic code/10 commandments – this factor makes them worthy of the worse than worst (see: dehumanising etc.).

    Yeah, yeah, I know. But still.

    The reality is that at some level Hitler was stark nuts so it is probably helps the explanation.

  187. incognito says:

    I would not put the Chinese and the Arabs into the same category. The Chinese represent an ancient, creative civilization.

    Sure. But I was not referring to that. I was talking about ownership and control. With respect to that it is not in the west’s interest to be owned by either arabs or chinese. It accelerates its collapse.

  188. Cynic says:

    incognito,

    The judge has other fishy judgments on his hands.
    It is just too coincidental to be chance (if I make myself clear).
    Just as your DOJ has swept under the rug the Black Panther voter intimidation business so the Brits sweep under the rug criminal acts which impact on the Juice.
    The West seems to be sentencing itself to another dark ages be it by way of hatred of another or just plain despotic aims.

    As for the Chinese, well, from what I’ve gleaned from the odd bit of intel it seems that they are the 21st Century’s colonizer of Africa and given a bit of time will hold all strategic mineral resources including all those rare earths needed for today’s cutting edge iPhones. The US and Europe are digging themselves deeper with every day gone by.

  189. incognito says:

    Just as your DOJ has swept under the rug the Black Panther voter intimidation business so the Brits sweep under the rug criminal acts which impact on the Juice.

    Well, doesn’t Obama want to make the US just EU? Apparently he is effective in that.

    The West seems to be sentencing itself to another dark ages be it by way of hatred of another or just plain despotic aims.

    Welcome to the club. But it is not “sentencing”, it HAS SENTENCED! See my comment in the latest thread.

    It’s hard to live any place in Europe and not detect the darkness ennveloping it.

  190. E.G. says:

    incognito,

    Hitler’s pathology doesn’t explain much. He wasn’t the first nor the last nut heading a state. The apparatus his friends and collaborators put in place (propaganda, repression, oppression, terror, execution) has, IMO, much more explicative power.

    And what is being put in place these days, by Islamic spearheads, is a similar apparatus. And with a very similar “uniquely unique” line of reasoning. Murder of Jews and “Zionist” or “Crusader” infidels has been authorized by different Fatwas. The Zionist/Jewish entity has been declared eradicable. Recalling that “honour crimes” are Islamically acceptable, it seems even easier to accomplish the remorse shift, if not complete extirpation, from the Moslem soul.

  191. incognito says:

    e.g.,

    I agree, but only up to a point.

    The industrial system of murder that the nazis implemented has not been replicated since. I do not mean that there have been no genocides of the same size or bigger, it’s just that they have not been industrial in character.

    Of course there have been other nutters, but their nuthood is not the same as Hitler’s. They are more nuts about naked power rather than sheer extermination.

  192. E.G. says:

    incognito,

    There have been genocides before and after it, as well as other massacres (how can one term the Gulag system?) using various technologies or techniques, and it’s hard if not obscene, to compare the cruelty.
    The point is about the uniqueness of the Shoah. And although the means have their share, the motive and the ends are the bearers of unicity.
    Technology evolved.

    Whoever refuses to deal with the Commandments feature has big trouble with the Western civilization.

  193. E.G. says:

    Another commandment is about false testimony (lying).
    Al-Dura…
    Israeli “apartheid”…
    Etc.

  194. incognito says:

    There have been genocides before and after it, as well as other massacres (how can one term the Gulag system?) using various technologies or techniques, and it’s hard if not obscene, to compare the cruelty.

    The gulags were not about industrial extermination, but about “re-education” or shutting people up. While the consequences might be called genocidal, they were not about exterminating a whole nation.

    The point is about the uniqueness of the Shoah. And although the means have their share, the motive and the ends are the bearers of unicity.
    Technology evolved.

    It’s not JUST about the technology. It’s also about the goal: to exterminate a whole nation.

    Whoever refuses to deal with the Commandments feature has big trouble with the Western civilization.

    Heinsohn makes it quite clear that the difference was Hitler’s ABROGATION of the commandment.

    He despised the weak to the point of extermination.
    The other genocides wanted to murder not because the victims were weak, but because they had the potential to be strong.

    And you know what: at some level his analysis was correct: in the way in which jews went to the slaughter like sheep, they proved weak.

  195. incognito says:

    Obama tasks NASA with building Muslim self-esteem
    http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2010/07/026682.php

  196. E.G. says:

    incognito,

    Yet the Sturmer, among others, kept claiming the Jews’ over-strength!

    When I wrote about “dealing with the Commandments” I was referring to Fink’s speech.

  197. incognito says:

    Yet the Sturmer, among others, kept claiming the Jews’ over-strength!

    That was for mass consumption. After all, you don’t think that the german public would have mistreat jews because they were weak, do you? That was Hitler’s game.

  198. incognito says:

    http://goo.gl/fb/ai8z1

    Left’s logic: Bibi is not intimidating enough, so he should take Livni in govt.

  199. incognito says:

    Achtungmeinjihad to Obama:

    “Mr. President, before thinking about other nations, think about your own. The action you took has forced us to declare that from now on, one of the main demands of the Iranian nation is to rescue the American people from its non-democratic bullying administration.”

    The sweet reward: Obama refused to support Iranian opposition, but the Iranian “president” supports the US opposition.

    I love it.

  200. Eliyahu says:

    re Finkielkraut’s speech at Yad vaShem [#123].
    He mentions Goethe as part of the Euro cultural heritage. Goethe’s poetry –in Finkielkraut’s view– should have militated against Nazism. In fact, Rivka Schechter wrote precisely that Goethe was part of a cultural tradition that led to Hitler ["Paul-Luther-Goethe-Hitler," Nativ III, 1 (12); in Hebrew]. She writes that Goethe disregarded morality, that he was one of: “the successors of Luther, the various philosophers, poets, and ideologues [who] removed all moral restraints from Germany, and the Third Reich was the culmination of this process.” So Finkielkraut ought to go back and study the origins of the Third Reich, specifically the intellectual origins of the Holocaust.

    This means that much of the Euro cultural heritage is not so good and one ought to discriminate between the good and the bad.

    As to the reasons for the current Euro Judeophobia, Finkielkraut offers one explanation which may be partly true. Jean-Claude Milner offers another in Les penchants criminels de l’Europe democratique. I agree with Milner in part.

    But I think that govt policies have a lot to do with the current Judeophobia in certain countries more than others. Tradition plays a role too. Here we also see the problem that parts of the Euro cultural heritage, the Judeophobia inter alia, is turning against the Euros themselves, blinding them to the threat of Islamic jihad and Shari`ah in their own countries.

  201. Eliyahu says:

    Incog, re #129, the Hebrew article from Haggai ben Artsi is good and essentially true, that is, true on all major points although I could quibble over some details. He could have made it stronger yet if he had made two more points:

    1) the aid given by various Western powers over the years [not only the Communist bloc] to Arab anti-Israel terrorist groups, like Fatah and Hamas.

    2) the role of most Western states, especially the UK govt, in creating anti-Israel, anti-Jewish propaganda and psywar, cogwar. This has included invention by Brit psywar experts of the “palestinian people” notion. Some people have asked why I attribute that to Britain. Ben Artsi gives some of the reasons why I should point to the UK. He lists British betrayal from the beginning of the Jewish National Home principle and of the international law embodied in the mandate assigned to the UK by the League of Nations. He mentions the 3 white papers, the most disastrous being the 1939 “white paper on palestine.” This “white paper” policy represented Brit collaboration with Germany in the Holocaust. Here he could have added the bbc’s collaboration in hushing up and/or minimizing the Holocaust. Ben Artsi should also have mentioned that UK armed forces took direct part in the 1947-1949 Arab-Israeli war fighting on the Arab side, for the Arabs, using tanks, artillery, and aircraft, etc.

    Ben Artsi is Sara Netanyahu’s brother. Maybe he has shared his views with Bibi. Maybe Bibi learned from his father’s experiences in the USA in 1946-49.

  202. incognito says:

    Here we also see the problem that parts of the Euro cultural heritage, the Judeophobia inter alia, is turning against the Euros themselves, blinding them to the threat of Islamic jihad and Shari`ah in their own countries.

    It’s rather sweet to see the rewards that Europe is getting by “exchanging” the jews with the muslims. It’s a sad sweet but, since there is little that can be done about it, sweet nevertheless. Actions have consequences.

  203. incognito says:

    Eliyahu,

    Hagi comes from a heavily religious angle which does not focus on all the aspects the likes of us focus on.

    Two personal notes:

    1. I used to know him as Haggai too in school. But his daughter tells me that his actual name is Hagi (ha-hag sheli) and that Haggai being used is incorrect.

    2. I made a mistake in my representation of him: he is not married to Bibi’s sister, but rather Bibi’s wife is his sister.

  204. Cynic says:

    Eliyahu,

    Here he could have added the bbc’s collaboration in hushing up and/or minimizing the Holocaust.

    and here’s an interesting article which starts out about the censoring of pertinent facts in Wikipedia and about the NYT and its cover-up of the Holocaust which if it had not done so could possibly have changed the the outcome of Hitler’s policy.

    Wikipedia’s Jewish Problem

    So it was natural that in retirement I thought it would be meaningful to contribute to Wikipedia.

    I had an idea for a well-documented topic on which there is universal consensus among experts.

    This topic appealed to me because it is about accuracy and journalistic ethics, something close to my heart. I decided to put in some information on “The New York Times and The Holocaust.”
    ………..
    While it was happening, and something could have been done, the New York Times had a deliberate policy to bury news of the Holocaust.
    …….
    Readers of the Times would not know that the Warsaw Uprising involved Jews. The Time’s consistently editorialized in favor of President Roosevelt’s decisions to bar European Jews trying to flee the death camps.

    When the death camps were liberated, Eisenhower summoned the nation’s top editors and publishers to join him as eyewitnesses. The Times sent Julius Ochs Adler, vice president and another family member of the Times dynasty. His account of Buchenwald ran on page six.

    Max Frankel called the Times decision to bury the news of the Holocaust ‘the bitterest journalistic failure of the century,’ a tragedy that abetted Hitler’s genocide.
    ……..
    Frankel quoted Dr. Leff extensively. He characterized her as “the most diligent independent student of the Times’ Holocaust coverage.” Leff documented how The New York Times, which defined the Holocaust as a non-story for the national media, made it impossible for Jewish groups during the war to galvanize the public or politicians to do anything for Hitler’s Jewish victims.

    Wouldn’t it be nice to see the NYT brought to trial by the few remaining survivors and descendants just to get the disgraceful facts out publicly?

  205. incognito says:

    Wouldn’t it be nice to see the NYT brought to trial by the few remaining survivors and descendants just to get the disgraceful facts out publicly?

    Sure, but don’t you think that today you’ll get “The jews are trying to control and stifle everybody, using the Holocaust as an excuse”?

  206. Cynic says:

    Sure, but don’t you think that today you’ll get “The jews are trying to control and stifle everybody, using the Holocaust as an excuse”?

    You don’t by any chance suggest that one desist from exposing the truth and facts to forsake ad hominem attacks and stereotypical discrimination do you?

    The Jews will get that excuse thrown at them, anyway, this is a fight which has to be fought.
    But as long as more people are brought into the light the better overall.

  207. incognito says:

    You don’t by any chance suggest that one desist from exposing the truth and facts to forsake ad hominem attacks and stereotypical discrimination do you?

    Not exactly. I am wondering what good will it do in a world which is no longer CAPABLE of distinguishing between truth and lies and doesn’t even care about such a distinction.

    But as long as more people are brought into the light the better overall.

    I see no signs that exposure of the truth brings more people to light, at least not to an extent that it will make a difference.

    The principles you refer to are pertinent in a civilized world, not one sinking into dark ages.

  208. Eliyahu says:

    the great unwashed rioted in Grenoble the other day, and maybe tonight too. A thug shot a cop and was then killed. So of course one must riot. These unwashed belong to the nation of Jeunes. They come from Jeunesse seoudite.

    There are many countries today that are not exactly sovereign, maybe for different reasons. Lebanon is in a constant state of civil war, active or latent. Then Pakistan. Then there’s Somalia, which has not had a govt in almost 20 years. Then Israel which is constantly subject to foreign pressures and betrayals, pressured not to enforce its own laws. Then there’s Iraq and finally France. The latter fears a latent civil war bursting into active form.

  209. incognito says:

    The latter fears a latent civil war bursting into active form.

    Civil war is only a hope: that the natives will actually fight. I am not so sure about that.

  210. [...] Sharia, via a commenter on this thread:     Richard Landes, in the post that began the discussion: Whenever honor-shame rules [...]

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