Not “Self-”Hating Jews, but Jewish Scourges of Jews

Adam Levick of CiFWatch has a meditation on the problem of what I’ve called “hyper-self critical Jews.” Since I’m about to participate in a panel at the YIISA Conference on global anti-Semitism at Yale University later this month, I would like to encourage readers to comment so I can incorporate some of their ideas in my presentation.

The Guardian’s anti-Israel Jews, and a letter to my teenage nephew
August 11, 2010 in Uncategorized | Tags: Antisemitism, Antony Lerman, Comment is Free, Guardian, Hamas, Hezbollah, Nazi Analogies, Neve Gordon, Richard Silverstein, Seth Freedman, Theobald Jew | by Adam Levick

CiF’s Jewish Israel defamers

When joining the team here at CiF Watch, and attempting to understand why Jewish writers for the Guardian are often among the most vociferous in expressing their contempt for Israel, and so willing to demonize the state’s Jewish supporters, I had to get up to speed on the term “Theobald Jew.”

I soon learned that:

    According to the Benedictine monk Thomas of Monmouth in his The Life and Miracles of St. William of Norwich (1173), it was an apostate Jew, a certain Theobald, who, swore that Jews had killed twelve-year old William, a tanner’s apprentice, to fulfill their “Passover blood ritual” in the fateful year of 1144—the first recorded such episode in a long line of murderous defamations.

The CiF contributors I refer to include Naomi Klein, Neve Gordon, Richard Silverstein, Antony Lerman, Seth Freedman, Tony Greenstein, among others. These Jewish writers don’t merely critique Israeli policy, but routinely engage in hyperbole, vitriol, and gross distortions. Their rhetoric is often spewed with hate towards the Jewish state, all but ignoring the behavior of her enemies – the terrorist and reactionary movements who openly seek her annihilation. Such commentators often infer that the democratic Jewish state (the most progressive nation, by far, in the region) is almost always in the wrong, is usually motivated by a hideous malevolence, and represents a national movement which they, as Jews, are ashamed to be associated with.

Freedman, for instance, has suggested that Israel is a theocracy – one which is on moral par with Hamas, Hezbollah, and al-Qaeda. Gordon has on several occasions accused Israel of ethnic cleansing – once advancing such an ugly calumny in the radical anti-Zionist magazine, Counterpunch. Tony Greenstein has ardently defended the ugly comparisons between Israel and Nazi Germany, typically advanced by extremists. Richard Silverstein has called the behavior of Israelis serving in the IDF “subhuman“, and has defended Hamas from “charges” that they are an extremist movement. Naomi Klein actually accused Israel of being so cruel and sadistic as to “bury children alive in their homes.”

While, for the Guardian, employing the services of Theobald Jews serves to inoculate them from charges of anti-Semitism, such Jewish writers, in return, receive the progressive and universalist credentials they so eagerly seek.

The Misnomer of the “Self-Hating Jew”

To be fair, I always found the term “self-hating Jew” to be at best misleading, at worst a complete misnomer. First, because we typically have no way of knowing these writers‘ inner-thoughts. But, more importantly, I never thought that it was an apt description of the anti-Zionist Jews I’ve met over the years. If anything, most seem to possess a belief that they are indeed “better Jews” for being hyper-critical of Israel, opposing their own community, and rejecting the very idea of a Jewish nation-state.

Many seem singularly focused on being seen as a “progressive”. And, as the progressive movement has moved further and further away from identification with Israel – and, to some degree, further away from identification with Jews as such – the need to be seen as progressive (“righteous”) in the eyes of others, has taken precedence over the seemingly parochial desire to identify with, and defend, their own community.

I have thought long and hard about the phenomenon of Jews who oppose their own community, have read and written about it, and there appears to be four dynamics worth exploring:

1. Moral Vanity

I was particularly inspired by Anthony Julius’s long two-part essay published at the American Jewish Committee site, Z Word. The piece was called Jewish anti-Zionism Unravelled: The Morality of Vanity. (Pt. 1 & Pt. 2). Julius also rejects the notion of such Jews as being “self-hating”. Instead he refers to them as moralisers who continually desire affirmation from the non-Jewish world as to their righteousness.

    The moraliser makes judgments on others, and profits by so doing; he puts himself on the right side of the fence. Moralising provides the moraliser with recognition of his own existence and confirmation of his own value. A moraliser has a good conscience and is satisfied by his own self-righteousness . He is not a self-hater; he is enfolded in self-admiration. He is in step with the best opinion.

In his book, Trials of the Diaspora, Julius calls them “scourges,” a term I prefer because it relates to their self-anointed role as prophets, whipping the wayward Jewish people into line.

2. The Temptation of Innocence

Ruth Wisse, in her book Jews and Power, identified the tendency of some Jews to vociferously oppose their own community as a dynamic which she, in part, attributes to a Jewish uneasiness with the projection political power and a tendency to almost fetishize the Jews’ history of powerlessness. Wisse concludes that Jews who endured, or know the history of, the powerlessness of exile are in danger of mistaking it for a requirement of Jewish life or, worse, for a Jewish ideal. This puerile desire not to be corrupted by the complexities, and occasional compromises, necessitated by possessing moral agency is described by Pascal Bruckner as “The Temptation of Innocence.”

3. Jewish Fear: Assimilation and Altruism as an Inoculation from Harm

More recently, Barry Rubin, director of the GLORIA Center (Global Research on International Affairs), in an illuminating and penetrating piece, entitled “Explaining Jewish Political Behavior“, said:

    [historically] Jews were attacked for allegedly having too much power, even when they had little or none, the emphasis was on being eager to make concessions, not to gain victories through threat or pressure.

…How would this strategy try to succeed? By proving Jews were good citizens, by showing they were unselfish and sought nothing for themselves, by demonstrating their willingness to dissolve the bonds and customs of their own community…and by showing that being nice to them would benefit everyone or almost everyone. In other words, altruism was a central element in the strategy

    “…A key element of the assimilationist doctrine has been to deny there was a [Jewish] collective communal interest, and to avoid making collective demands.

Rubin, who, it should be noted, fleshes out his argument more fully in his book, Assimilation and Its Discontents, continues:

    large parts of the Jewish elite are proud to stand aloof from their own people and deem it virtuous to abandon it and reject any notion of communal interests (including Israel and religion). Indeed, they think they can best prove their credentials by championing the causes of other groups even–sometimes especially–those in conflict with Jewish interests.

    …The elite Jew’s emphasis is often to escape identification with the community, proving he is a cosmopolitan with a universalist identity, being the first to demand the dissolution of any community loyalty and viewing the embodiment of Jewish peoplehood—Israel—as an impediment to those goals. While antisemites charge that all or almost all Jews in positions of power pursue a distinctively Jewish interest, the exact opposite is the truth. This explains how left-wing Jews extol multiculturalism and self-determination for other peoples even as they hold the exact opposite attitude toward their own people, whom they are determined to show are not their own people.

    …many Jews, particularly in elite positions, are eager to prove their credentials by criticizing their own people or Israel.

4. The Adversarial Jew: Skepticism and relativism disguised as reasoned political thought

I think there’s one last dynamic at play – an insight I came upon as a result of an email exchange I had with my 16-year-old nephew recently.

He reached out to me to seek my advice on this phase he was going through. It seems that he’s going through an early “existential crisis” of sorts – a frame of mind (I warmly noted to him) that most don’t arrive at until college. He mentioned that, lately, he’s been questioning everything – every social convention, everything he’s ever been told, and wondering whether the wisdom, mores, and customs he‘s been brought up by his parents to believe in and abide by are indeed worthy. He said that, since this struggle, he wasn’t misbehaving, but had resigned himself to merely “going through the motions” – but wasn’t really buying into what he always believed to be true. He wanted to know what I thought.

In my reply, I assured him that what he’s going through is perfectly normal, and was a sign that he possessess a vibrant, active, and healthy mind – and, that, indeed, such existential crises were the inspiration for great works of poetry, literature, and philosophy through the ages. I said that I also went through a similar mental orientation – that I, during the first couple years of college, questioned everything ever taught to me by my parents and my community. I even looked down on the adults in my life, and their seemingly conventional thinking. In my arrogance, I said, I believed that I saw things they didn’t see…had arrived at answers to questions that had perplexed not only my a parents and relatives, but the most brilliant minds in my time and in generations past.

However, I also told him that I eventually learned to have a bit of humility about it all, and eventually realized that I didn’t know much about life, at that early stage in my life, at all. And, that my parents, the older I got (and as my adolescence receded) seemed to become wiser and wiser with each passing year – in what I increasingly identified as their decency, sobriety, and plain common sense.

So, I asked my nephew if he would at least try to avoid the audacity of imagining that he alone possessed the wisdom and insight that has eluded his community – the Rabbis, sages, political, and community leaders – in his generation and though the ages. I asked that he not assume that because his father claims that something is true, that the opposite must indeed be what’s actually correct. I asked that he be patient and assured him that, with time and experience, he’ll eventually not be so quick to question the intentions of those who guide him. I expressed confidence that he will come to see that a healthy skepticism about “conventional thinking” is indeed normal, but that he’ll eventually understand that such thoughts need not devolve into a knee-jerk rejection of all the traditions and values of those who have come before him and have guided generations of Jews through often dark and harrowing times.

Julius, in his Z Word essay, dissected the potential moral pathos of many such renegade Jews:

    He holds that the truth is to be arrived at by inverting the “us = good” and “other = bad” binarism. He finds virtue in opposing his own community; he takes the other point of view. He writes counter-histories of his own people. It is not enough for him to disagree, or even refute; he must expose the worst bad faith, the most ignoble motives, the grossest crimes. He must discredit.

My nephew is a smart, decent, and level-headed young man. And, I have no doubt that he’ll maintain his bearings during this intellectual “crisis” and not allow himself to surrender to hubris, nor develop a malevolence towards the family and community that has supported, nurtured, and guided him through the complexities of everyday life – those who love him dearly and have tried with all their heart to provide a path to protect him from the maddeningly complicated world he lives in.

It’s a simple lesson perhaps, but a vital one. And, its wisdom that many of the Jews who write for the Guardian, quite shamefully, don’t even meagerly possess.

As Anthony Julius put it so pungently, “they’re proud to be ashamed to be Jewish.” Honor-Shame culture turned on its head. And when hooked up with Arab scapegoating gives us the toxic marriage of pre-modern sadism and post-modern masochism. World, beware Jews who bears the gifts of loathing their own people. Nothing good can come of it, for Jews or for the other nations.

500 Responses to Not “Self-”Hating Jews, but Jewish Scourges of Jews

  1. Joo-liz says:

    In the process of reading the whole thing, but I want to say that I agree with his opinion of the “Self-hating Jew” as a misnomer.

    Another term needs to be made.

    It is too easily derided as absurd (of course they don’t actually hate THEMSELVES). Adam Levick includes the other reasons it is misleading in his post.

    I think this is a point that is severely under-emphasized in today’s discourse about anti-Israel leftist-Jews.

  2. incognito says:

    If anything, most seem to possess a belief that they are indeed “better Jews” for being hyper-critical of Israel, opposing their own community, and rejecting the very idea of a Jewish nation-state.

    This is key: it’s BECAUSE the insist on being “better jews” that they hate Israel so much. At some level they realize the moral superiority of Israel, warts and all, and they cannot accept that by not, as jews, living in Israel, they are inferior.

    And, as the progressive movement has moved further and further away from identification with Israel – and, to some degree, further away from identification with Jews as such – the need to be seen as progressive (“righteous”) in the eyes of others

    That’s #2: conformism with their progressive class, for fear of social excommunication.

    I have thought long and hard about the phenomenon of Jews who oppose their own community

    They are afraid for being lumped with “their community” so they must disassociate themselves, to stress that it is NOT their community.

    moralisers who continually desire affirmation from the non-Jewish world as to their righteousness.

    Converters to christianity thend to desire to be “more catholic than the pope” for similar reasons: to overcome the stigma of not being “native” to it, but coming from the “other”, the “enemy”.

    Jewish uneasiness with the projection political power and a tendency to almost fetishize the Jews’ history of powerlessness.

    The notion seems to be “if we just did not aspire to power, they would like us”. Fits very well in the hands of islam and its perception of dhimmis. Power is bad and the root of evil. It does not seem to occur to them that it’s precisely the lack of power and the power into the hands of their enemies that is a major factor in the jews’ fate in history.

    By proving Jews were good citizens, by showing they were unselfish and sought nothing for themselves, by demonstrating their willingness to dissolve the bonds and customs of their own community…and by showing that being nice to them would benefit everyone or almost everyone. In other words, altruism was a central element in the strategy

    It is actually self-protection promoted as altruism and is the main aspect of jewish behavior prior and during the holocaust.

    The elite Jew’s emphasis is often to escape identification with the community, proving he is a cosmopolitan with a universalist identity, being the first to demand the dissolution of any community loyalty and viewing the embodiment of Jewish peoplehood—Israel—as an impediment to those goals.

    See Judt and Wieselthier on Judt.

    And when hooked up with Arab scapegoating gives us the toxic marriage of pre-modern sadism and post-modern masochism.

    That’s why the encounter between the western left and Islam is so damn dangerous — and why the collapse of the west is so acute and fast.

  3. incognito says:

    Simply put: if they hate jews it must be their fault. So don’t treat us as jews, we are better.

  4. Toko LeMoko says:

    “To be fair, I always found the term “self-hating Jew” to be at best misleading, at worst a complete misnomer.”

    The term is accurate if one interprets it as meaning not a Jew who hates himself, but a Jew who hates other Jews, particularly those different from himself.

  5. Philippe says:

    Accusing Israel of ethnic cleansing is another historical inversion. Israel did not do like the turks in Cyprus (1974) who ethnically cleansed northern cyprus from greeks, nor the ruddians that expelled the ethnic georgians from South Ossetia or the kosovars that cleansed Kososvo from serbs etc…
    In 1967 Israel did not move the “palestinains” out of Judea and Samaria (we can note that the above mentioned cleanser do not have a problem with these minorities, as Isarel know does with the pals.
    Israel had a moral and even (foolishly) generous attitude (Dayan giving up the keys of the temple mount in 67) and it is the one acused of immorality.
    The jew hating jews are craving acceptance from anti-semites. They haven’t learned. The antisemites will use them until time comes to kill them.

  6. Philippe says:

    I meant Russians.

  7. Walter Sobchak says:

    There is some good news. Tony Judt died. May the Guardian of Israel judge him with more mercy than he judged his fellow Jews.

  8. AKUS says:

    This issue is as old as the Haggadah. The evil son is one who stands aside from the rest of the community, and asks – “what has this to do with me?”

    The most abhorrent case at the moment is that of Neve Gordon, a tenured professor at BGU, who calls for boycotts against Israel in articles in the LA Times, eagerly taken up by the Guardian. Of course, he assumes that the boycott will apply to all Israelis except himself and a reliable select few who will continue to call for boycotts against “all those other Israelis”, from who he excludes himself.

    I think CiFWatch has had a somewhat ameliorating effect on some of the “as-a-Jews” that write – or wrote- for it – the ones who preface their remarks with “As a Jew … I am entitled to say the most horrendous things about those other, deficient, non-universalist, unempathetic, Zionist etc. etc. Jews”. For example, Seth Freedman regularly used Nazi analogies to describe Israelis – that is to say, all those other Israelis, not his pals – while some, like Rachel Shabi, has had her views revealed as totally absurd as she tries to reincarnate the dead horse of Mizrachi-Ashkenazi friction in Israel. Demonstrating additional factual errors, such as simple errors in geography has had a useful dampening effect as well.

  9. DIane says:

    I think it’s important to look at the extent to which these anti-Zionist Jews actually identify as Jewish, or whether they are using the cover of a Jewish sounding name to gain an insider’s advantage in the debate.

    Unlike in Hitler’s day, being a Jew – especially in multicultural America – is something you can choose to take upon yourself or reject entirely. I would therefore argue that those who do not identify as Jews – even if it’s secular Workman’s Circle-style cultural Jewishness – are in no meaningful sense Jews.

    In this sense, I think it’s a category mistake to call Norman Finkelstein or Noam Chomsky a Jew. They are hard leftists with Jewish-sounding surnames.

    • mila says:

      wow couldn’t of said it better myself.

      even an atheist can see that to be anti israel is in actuality being against the jewish population….

      so yes freedom for gaza…people who would be lead by a terrorist organization…without israel’s help….

      and watch your people disappear just so you can fit in…..

      i do not know if anyone has noticed but norman finklestein has a huge death anger stare wrinkles…. it must take a lot out of a person who hates to be free.

  10. homer Jones says:

    You forgot Glenn “the fag” Greenwald who is too scared to travel to an Arab country.

  11. Rich Rostrom says:

    The willingness to criticize one’s own country, party, religion, faction, ethnos has been one of the strengths of western culture.

    But as I have noted, it has evolved into an autoimmune disease.

    It doesn’t just affect Jews. Look at the way white Americans grovel to “Indian nationalists”, or the endless British apologias for the sins of the Empire. Or the efforts to hammer both the U.S. and Britain for the air war against Nazi Germany and Japan.

    But yeah. The Western. Enlightenment virtue of critical dissent has been fetishized – so being a dissenter and internal critic becomes a position of superlative virtue and prestige. We reward anyone who flogs us.

  12. Rich Rostrom says:

    Diane: There have been many Jews with understandable motives for opposing Zionism.

    The great struggle of the 19th century was to gain acceptance for Jews as equal citizens of the countries they lived in. Not just legal equality, but functional equality – not being considered “foreign”. To be considered “French”, or “German”, or “British”, or “American”, just as much as any Gentile.

    This was in substantial part achieved. And then the Zionists declared that such assimilation was impossible and wrong – that Jews were a separate people. In some respects, Zionism tacitly agreed with the anti-semitic nativists. And thus it is not ridiculous for a Jew to to have opposed Zionism as a Jew.

    At this time, wrong-headed and foolish, but not absurd.

  13. incognito says:

    I think it’s important to look at the extent to which these anti-Zionist Jews actually identify as Jewish, or whether they are using the cover of a Jewish sounding name to gain an insider’s advantage in the debate.

    I would suspect jewishness (or for that matter ethicity, race or religion) means nothing to them (this does not stop them from being racist, of course). By this they seek to disaasociate themselves from jewishness so that their class won’t excommunicate them.

    Unlike in Hitler’s day, being a Jew – especially in multicultural America – is something you can choose to take upon yourself or reject entirely.

    Well, if indeed jewishness is defined by birth of a jewish woman, then you ARE a jew, whether you like it or not (that’s how nazis treated even those who converted to christianity). So you can refuse to consider yourself a jew, but others won’t accept that.
    Which is precisely why they must curse Israel to kingdom come, as self identification usually is not enough.

  14. incognito says:

    This was in substantial part achieved. And then the Zionists declared that such assimilation was impossible and wrong

    Well, I guess that after 6 million of those who achieved that “substantial emancipation” you refer to, the Zionists had to question it just a bit, don’t you think? Especially since that striving for emancipation started shortly after christianity hijacked jesus and we know how well it ended many times in history.

    “And then the zionists declared…” indeed. Just out of the blue.

  15. Dvar Dea says:

    Why should we waste time on their motives?
    There is probably more than one reason, in this post there are four different analysis, four different reasons. There are probably more reasons to add; some are anti-Semitic Jews, since there is no biological immunity from having a view, [an anti-Semite is someone who opposes the right of Jews for life, liberty and equality, and since Jews are a nation, that right is the state of Israel as a democratic Jewish state]. Others belong to competitive ideologies that lost to Zionism and refuse to accept defeat, others cannot tell the difference between liberal values and Palestinian propaganda. And some of the people in the last category are genuine Zionist.
    Trying to sort out all their motives is a waste of time; it is much better to focus on their arguments. Debunk their interpretation of reality, debunk the morality of their reasoning, debunk their “facts,” and whatever else they bring along.

  16. I truly believe that to try to understand these indiviudals is a waste of time. There can be any numbe of reasons that they turn on their own people. It can be as simple as their religous father spent time praying or making htem pray when tehy would hav preferred to go out and play football, to truly disagreeing with every precept of religon in general.

    The reality is, that they are just a miniscule portion fo the Jewish community if they align themselves with the Jewish community at all. Remember most of the “self-hating” Jews have removed themselves in one way or another from the Jewish community as a whole, either by converting to another religion, not belonging to a synagogue and in fact joining their spouses church instead, to not giving to or having anything to do with Jewish cahrity organization, besides belonging to overtly antisemitic political parties.

    The issue is what to do with them and how to marganilize them.It becomes difficult when the antisemites of the world hold those, like Goldstone, up as proof that theur antisemitic narrative is correct because they have a Jew on their side.

  17. Dvar Dea says:

    I wouldn’t regard Goldstone as an Anti-Semite. His particular case is more complex and thereby a good example why we should not put this entire group in the same box, when we try to explain their motives.

  18. Sorry Dvar but I think you do give Goldstone too much credit. Personally I think that it is not complex at all. Here is an egocentric indiviudal who presided over an apartheid legal system, who wanted to rehabilitate his image by castigating his own people to show what an internationalist he was (that was after he was made to look foolish during his investigation of war crimes in Bosnia as well). Anyone with any intelligence knew what the outcome of the investigation into Gaza conflict was going to be and in fact that he did not even bother to truly investigate any of the allegations made against Israel shows that he also had an agenda before hand for what ever reason. Maybe the Israeis didn’t give his ego enough of a boost when he thought that he was entitled to it. Simple not complex at all.

  19. Dvar Dea says:

    Patriot,
    There is nothing in what I said that gives him credit. I discussed his motives, not the quality of his work.
    There is nothing about the motives you attributed to him, in your analysis that suggest anti-Semitism.

  20. The greatest tribute to one’s professional status in modern times, regardless of one’s geography, is to be allowed to publish his/her opinion in the New York Times, The Guardian, The Washington Post and other mainstream news outlets. To be hailed by those hallowed institutions as progressive, constructive, visionary, or even ‘smart enough’, is to have been annointed with the oil of ‘civil redeemer’ and to allow one’s ego to sip from the nectar of ‘everlasting media life’ generally afforded only to great literary illuminatae or members of the ruling elite. Few are those who can withstand the attraction towards the black hole of leftist anti Israel rhetoric.
    There is an old story of a Shabbos Goy who at the end of his life begged to be buried as a Jew. He explained to the incredulous community that when he originally applied for the job, he’d hoped it would be temporary. Times were tough, he needed work, years passed, he accepted his fait and even found merit in justification of his own actions. Economics and the security of belonging to a willing employer took precedence over religious scruples. Our modern world produces many who, after spending a lifetime in the halls of learning and the fortunes of their forebearers to obtain the highest academic degrees, will find it easier based on their biased education and far more financially rewarding to be accepted among the literary and philisophical Leftist majority than among the few remaining rational thinkers. If one’s own anti-semetism, (yes Jews can be Anti Semites) sells, so be it.

  21. Sveinn says:

    I just wanted to add an element that I think plays largely into Jewish hyper-criticism of Israel — that of real physical consequences of an ideology.

    In other words, there is almost no immediate risk in the act of brutally (but verbally/ideologically) attacking a civilized society that innately respects diverse viewpoints and freedom of expression. Israel, Jews, the United States — all fall within the domain of safe targets for criticism. By comparison, truly evil crimes tend to be committed by truly evil people who lack the fundamental respect for criticism in the safe target realm. Hence, self-righteous Jews who might pursue Muslim fundamentalists or the Black Panthers or Sudanese militias would put themselves in real risk of physical/vital harm by the very act of their criticism.

    Therefore, if the simple act of being critical produces intellectual/moral esteem, then clearly making Israel, the Jews, Americans, etc your target makes sense, as it results in so many benefits at such little risk.

    Perhaps also there’s a celebrity angle to this. Rabid anti-Israel criticism from a Jew propels that person from a run-of-the-mill obscure status as a nobody to an expert, moralizing celebrity.

  22. incognito says:

    is to be allowed to publish his/her opinion in the New York Times, The Guardian, The Washington Post and other mainstream news outlets

    Exactly right (although those hallowed pubs do publish the token non-leftist once in a blue moon just enough to deny what you just argued).

    Hallowed they may be, but judging from their finances hollowed too.

    to obtain the highest academic degrees

    And so are those degrees too.

  23. incognito says:

    Hey, Rich, see what I mean?

    One photograph is of Theodor Herzl, born 150 years ago. Dismayed by the eruption of anti-Semitism in France during the Dreyfus Affair at the end of the 19th century, Herzl became Zionism’s founding father. Long before the Holocaust, he concluded that Jews could find safety only in a national homeland.

    George Will in Washinton Post.

  24. Eliyahu says:

    Rich, the Jews were historically considered a separate nation or people in Europe –and had a separate legal status in the various Euro countries– into the 19th century, following the famous Clermont-Tonnerre speech leading to Jewish equality during the French revolution, and the subsequent “Sanhedrin” convened by Napoleon [who also toyed with Zionism while he was in the East]. Actually, even today Jews are not fully equal citizens in a number of Euro states, including members of the EU.

    Incog and Rich, some of this apparent grovelling by several Western states towards formerly colonized countries and peoples is really done for political purposes; it is instrumental. Britain has been pro-Muslim and pro-Arab since about 1920, not only in Israel but in India, in the Ottoman Empire, in Egypt.
    The UK has tacit or undiscussed, undisclosed political purposes that are served by a pro-Muslim, pro-Arab policy.

  25. Sérgio says:

    Some comments:

    1) We should remember that the left has a *long* tradition of antisemitism (check Bauer and Marx´s invention of the “judenfrage” and the outstanding book “Revolutionary Antisemitism” by Paul Lawrence Rose) centered around jews=capitalists=bad, the role of court jews and the “particularism” issue.

    2) The particularism issue is a central isssu for those who uncritically embraced the naive view of the Enlightenment and its abstract “universalism”, as if human existence could be *totally* independent of the many familial, cultural, social and political allegiances and influences. Even if the intentions are good, this in an amazingly naive view of human nature. In any case, this is behing the assimilation bargain: “you jews can join humanity only if you abandon your jewish indentity”. Nowadays thing are more muddled as the new universalism is…multiculturalism!

    3)The toxic and corrupt influence of postmodernism in the humanities, from which many of these people come and from where they take their views (lit-crit, psychoanalysis, journalism, etc). In their frame of mind, there´s no truth to be searched after, only “unmasking” of “hegemonic narratives”, no analysis but only “deconstruction”. So, these people are prone to conspiratorial views. The resulting conceptual flatness, intellectual lazyness and sheer ignorance is a flagrant betrayal of the valuable insights from the Enlightenment.

    4) Also, I think that one component of their vehemence is resentment of not being taken seriously, the lack of attention that intellectuals crave for, so the need of their bombast and stridence.

    Regarding the “shame” thing, it reminds me of the case of Hanna Arendt, which thought herself a sophisticated central-european intellectual, ashamed of those easter european primitive jews. In a famous exchange of letters Gerson Scholem mentions that she lack “a love for the jewish people”.

  26. Cynic says:

    Dvar,

    There is nothing about the motives you attributed to him, in your analysis that suggest anti-Semitism.

    No, he is an opportunist watching which way the wind blows to take advantage and better himself at the expense of others.
    He is not courageous enough morally and ethically to go against the more powerful non-Jews in whose eyes he wishes to appear loyal and faithful.

    He is in the figure of the obsequious Uriah Heep frightened of appearing part of the “collective” other so despised by the “masters” that would detract from the image he aspires to.

  27. Dvar Dea says:

    Well Cynic,
    You have one possible explanation; another is that he simply trusts those types. And there are probably more possible explanations, which is why pondering at the motives is a waste of time.

  28. sshender says:

    Finally, Richard is back to his old self. Please, don’t disappear like that – there are people hear eagerly
    awaiting intellectually stimulating posts like these!

    On the topic, I think that what Dvar Dea noted about simply belonging to opposing ideological camps is being underrated here. Another thing is pure ignorance; of history for example. There is no doubt whatsoever that psychology plays a central role, however, others, more down to earth or personal reasons should not be negated as well.

    Alas, much as Richard and others noted, Jews seem to be unique in the prominence and fervor of antipathy to their keen, unparalleled by any other nation, not even the relativistic Europeans, who while smearing the US and Israel or the sins of Colonialism, have rarely anything bad to say about their own culture, nation or values.

    As is the case with most other things, Jews are in the vanguard of national masochism too.

  29. Ray in Seattle says:

    I’ll second sshender’s request for more “intellectually stimulating posts like these”.

    There is no doubt whatsoever that psychology plays a central role, however, others, more down to earth or personal reasons should not be negated as well.

    What could be more down to earth (as primary cause) than psychology – the forces acting in the brain at the time a behavior is selected? As I was going to suggest to Dvar, what people say about their own motives is to make the behavior (that they are being challenged to justify) justifiable of course, and thereby preserve their honor (their rep as a worthy person).

    People also do this for their ideological allies. Libs will describe Dem pols motives as saintlike, conservatives vice versa, etc.

    The corollary; people will describe the motives of their enemies in the opposite way – to make them seem like the worst possible humans on earth.

    My point; what people say about their own or their opponents motives seldom have any relationship to the psychology – the forces in their minds at the time the behavior was selected. And those forces are the only way to know their actual motives. It can be done but it’s difficult. It can almost never be done by allies or enemies in conflict attempting to describe their own or their enemies’ motives.

    That said, some few people’s motivations are actually saintlike and many people’s motivations are actually the worst imaginable. For example, while I would not say the Israeli’s behavior is saintlike in the AI conflict – it comes as close as almost any people’s I have seen in the ugly history of war. I base that on the undeniably defensive nature and their forbearance under extreme provocation to the point of threatening their own existence. And it’s hard not to see the self-admitted and self-admired motives of their Arab enemies’ as the worst imaginable on almost any human scale. It’s interesting that they are so honest about attacking innocent civilians and such but that’s probably because they see the oppression of the weak (ruthless killing of women and children) as admirable in their culture. Mohammed did it, didn’t he? Not because they feel some extraordinary need for honesty about their motives.

    It’s even more interesting to see how leftists in the west act as their allies and help them justify it like “what else can they do when facing the brutal IDF armed by the world’s greatest superpower, etc?”.

    Good to see you back. I was afraid you gave up. ;-)

  30. incognito says:

    Another thing is pure ignorance; of history for example.

    I have been arguing that consistently, with the proviso that it is mostly willful ignorance and gullibility to what the MSM and the propaganda sources disseminate. There is also much laziness and inability to think independently and critically.

    Jews seem to be unique in the prominence and fervor of antipathy to their keen, unparalleled by any other nation

    That is at least in part understandable for a nation persecuted to such degree. The survival — social and physical — instinct is bound to kick in via disassociation.

  31. incognito says:

    Ray,

    There is a HUGE difference between Israeli and diaspora jews. The latter are much closer culturally to their native societies and much quicker to accept and assimilate than the former.

  32. incognito says:

    It’s even more interesting to see how leftists in the west act as their allies and help them justify it like “what else can they do when facing the brutal IDF armed by the world’s greatest superpower, etc?”.

    It’s not that interesting to me, because the reason is obvious: an inferiority complex.

    They deem themselves superior morally and cannot handle the realization, at some level, that Israel beats them at it. That’s the reason why they prefer willful ignorance, to avoid cognitive dissonance between dogma and reality.

  33. Ray in Seattle says:

    Here’s a good article on “Effects of Motivated Reasoning on Political Decision Making”

    http://ir.uiowa.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1067&context=polisci_pubs

    willful ignorance kind of implies some conscious process of not knowing something – which I don’t think is possible. That’s like telling someone not to think of an elephant – like you just did. I think motivated ignorance might be a better term but I get your point.

  34. Ray in Seattle says:

    @28

    Are you using “diaspora” and “Israeli” to mean “not born in Israel” and “born in Israel”, respectively? Or do you mean something else?

  35. incognito says:

    willful ignorance kind of implies some conscious process of not knowing something – which I don’t think is possible.

    The use of the term willful ignorance has a very specific meaning in this context. They of course are not conscious that they are ignorant. But they refuse to invest effort or pay attention to evidence that indeed they dk all they need to know to form an opinion.

    For example: how many of the leftists that ally themselves with the pals acquire serious knowledge of pal culture, the history of the conflict, the details of the various negotiations, how they treat their own, the Hamas covenant? And what is their reaction when they are referred to all that?

    I don’t see much difference using motivated. In such cases people say “it’s just semantics”, but they actually mean the very opposite: it’s just SYNTAX.

    Are you using “diaspora” and “Israeli” to mean “not born in Israel” and “born in Israel”, respectively? Or do you mean something else?

    I mean “born, raised and lived to maturity”, that is being formed by the respective culture.

    Of course there can be cross-influences if they move between cultures, but they do have some core and the later they move the less is the core affected.

  36. Dvar Dea says:

    Ok people,
    This is an important and insightful discussion on this issue.
    Every person brought a unique angle or elaborated that angle. And I’m sure that many if not all are correct.

    But after all that has been written here, is there anyone who can offer a simple phrase, or a sentence to explain such Jews, other then ‘self hating Jews?’

  37. Stella Barbut says:

    I too have always believed that ” self-hating Jew ” is a misnomer. They are self-loving Jews. Their hatred is directed at God because of the universal perception that God chose the Jewish people. Because of this perception Jews are always singled out for persecution, no matter what they do or don’t do. So these self-loving Jews, instead of accepting the fact that no matter how much they assimilate and spout venom at Israel, the non Jewish societies will ultmately spit them out, turn on their fellow Jews
    like rabid psychopaths. They are the most pathetic losers. They still have the name Jew tagged on to them and to their virulent diatribes. They can never shake off the distinguishing Star of David.

  38. Daniel Bielak says:

    Dvar Dea wrote,

    “But after all that has been written here, is there anyone who can offer a simple phrase, or a sentence to explain such Jews, other then ‘self hating Jews?”

    Maybe it would be beneficial to use – but maybe it would not be beneficial to use – I don’t know whether or not it would be beneficial to use – one or more of the following terms, which, I think, are accurate.

    The following are terms that I think are accurate in all cases of the Jewish people who are the subject of this discussion.

    (The following are terms that I think are accurate in describing Jewish people who are deluded, and who hold perverse wrong views, and who – because they are deluded and hold perverse wrong views – feel themselves to be in opposition to the community of the Jewish people, and oppose the community of the Jewish people, and do actions that harm Jewish people.)

    O anti-Jewish Jewish people
    O anti-Jewish Jews

    The following are terms that I think are accurate in some of the cases of the Jewish people who are the subject of this discussion.

    (The following are terms that I think are accurate in describing Jewish people who are deranged, and who hold very perverse wrong views, and who – because they are deranged and hold very perverse wrong views – hate the community of the Jewish people and intentionally do actions to harm the community of the Jewish people, which are actions that harm Jewish people.)

    O Jewish haters of the Jewish people
    O Jewish people who hate the Jewish poeple
    O Jew-hating Jews
    O Jewish Jew-Haters

  39. Daniel Bielak says:

    I don’t know whether or not it is helpful to focus on such people who are Jewish. I think that it may not be helpful – I think that it may not be beneficial – to focus on such people who are Jewish.

    I think that what needs to be done is for leaders of Israel to start telling the truth about the situation.

    Israeli leaders need to start telling the factual history and current reality of the situation to world leaders and to the world.

  40. Daniel Bielak says:

    In the following 6 minute and 32 second long audio-video clip, Melanie Phillips concisely articulates what the situation is, and involved in that, what the mindset and behavior of Israeli government officials is, and what Israeli government officials – Israeli leaders – need to do in order to make the situation better.

    “Melanie Phillips: World Turned Upside Down [Q&A] (6/7)”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdqPDqtg7Po

  41. Daniel Bielak says:

    I wrote,

    “Israeli leaders need to start telling the factual history and current reality of the situation to world leaders and to the world.”

    First, Israeli leaders need to realize, and even, to a large degree, learn, what the factual history and current reality of the situation is, and as part of that, Israeli leaders need to realize and understand why telling the factual history and current reality of the situation to world leaders and to the world is necessary to prevent the situation from becoming worse and to make the situation better.

  42. Ray in Seattle says:

    They of course are not conscious that they are ignorant. But they refuse to invest effort or pay attention to evidence that indeed they dk all they need to know to form an opinion.

    That clears it up for me. I agree. The paper I linked to explains this pretty well.

  43. Daniel Bielak says:

    ..the factual history of the situation being the factual history of the situation from 1917 (and even earlier) until the present time.

    O The Balfour Declaration – 1917

    O The Faisal-Weizmann Agreement – 1919 – signed by Emir Faisal (Faisal bin al-Hussein) and Haim Weizmann to create one Arab state and one Jewish state in what, in 1920, was named the British Mandate of Palestine

    O The British Mandate of Palestine (Which included all of what is now Jordan, and included all of what is now Israel, and included all of what is now called “The West Bank”, and included all of what is now called “The Gaza Strip”) – named in 1920

    O Jack Philby (St. John Philby; also known by his Arabic name, Sheikh Abdullah) – The manager, assigned in 1920, of the British Mandate of Palestine, British intelligence officer, self-professed Socialist, fluent speaker of Arabic, convert to Islam in 1930, funder, in the 1930′s, of the National Socialist (Nazi) regime of Germany with laundered Arab petroleum revenue money, profitter, in the 1930′s, from funding, the National Socialist (Nazi) regime of Germany in the 1930′, supplier, in the 1930′s, of Arab petroleum to the Nazi regime of Germany, praiser, in the 1940′s, of the Nazi regime and disparager, in the 1940′s, of the British war effort against the Nazi regime of Germany

    O The creation of the state Transjordan by British officials, in 1922, in contravention to the Faisal-Weizmann Agreement of 1919 – British officials created the state Transjordan, which is now Jordan, in contravention to the Faisal- Weizman Agreement of 1919, and British officials, in contravention to the Faisal Weizmann Agreement, explicitly excluded Transjordan from the terms of the Faisal-Weizman Agreement in the official terms that those British officials created for the state of Transjordan

    O Amin al-Husseini – the founder of the “Palestinian” movement, anti-Jewish racist, appointed to the position of Grand Mufti of Jerusalem by British Officials in 1920, member and leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, which he joined in 1928, and Nazi official, and leader, as the head of the Arab Higher COmmitee, of the Muslim Arab self-proclaimedly intendedly genocidal attack on Israel in 1948 by the armies of five Arab states, and mentor of, and uncle of, Egyptian-born Yasser Arafat, and founder, with Yasser Arafat and Mahmoud Abbas, of Fatah in 1957

    O Allan Dulles – friend of Jack Philby, business partner (crime partner) with Jack Philby, funder, with Jack Philby, of the nazi regime of Germany in the 1930′s, profitter, with jack Philby, of funding the nazi regime of Germany, head of the Central Intelligence Agency (the CIA) of the United States after World War II, recruiter of several thousand German former Nazi officials into the CIA (who formed the bulk and core of the CIA membership)

    O The training, in the early 1950′s of the army of Arab Nationalist Egyptian general Gamal Abdel Nasser and the training of Arab Nationalist comandos, including Yasser Arafat, by former Nazi-official CIA members, which was training procured by Amin al-Husseini

    O The creation, in 1964, of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (the PLO) by then-President of Egypt, Gamal Abdel Nasser, and by members of the KGB

    O The training of Yasser Arafat in the Balashikha Soviet KGB special-ops in Russia by members of the KGB in the 1960′s

    O The campaign, from 1966 to 1967, by then-President of freshly Soviet-armed Egypt, Gamal Abdel Nasser, to militarily ally Arab states together to destroy Israel, and the simultaneous genocidally-themed anti-Israeli propaganda campaign, by Gamal Abdel Nasser, in Muslim Arab states

    O the aligning of the armies of several Arab states along the borders of Israel in 1967 in preparation to attack Israel, and the attack on, and the defeat of, those armies by the army of Israel

    O The occupation, by Jordan, from 1948 to 1967, of what is now called “The West bank”

    O The occupation, by Egypt, from 1948 until 1967, of what is now called “The Gaza Strip”

    O The 600,000 to 700,000 Arab refugees from the Muslim Arab intendedly genocidal attack on Israel, and the several million descendants of the 600,000 to 700,000 Arab refugees from the Muslim Arab intendedly genocidal attack on Israel – who are now called “Palestinians”, and who have been kept as refugees for over 60 years by Arab leaders and by the United Nations – who are only group of refugees who had a United Nations refugee organization made just for them, and who are not citizens of Israel

    O Tee United Nations refugee organization whose sole officially assigned function is the management and aid of the Arab refugees, and the descendants of the Arab refugees from, the Muslim Arab attack on Israel in 1948, which is one of the two refugee organizations of the United Nations – the officially assigned function of the other refugee organization of the United Nations, UNHRC, is the management and aid of all of the other refugees in the world

    O The prohibition, by law, in all Muslim Arab states, from the Arab refugees, and the descendents of the Arab refugees, from the Muslim Arab attack on Israel in 1948, from attaining citizenship in those Muslim Arab states, and from engaging in many profession in those Muslim Arab states

    O The 800,000 to 1,000,000 Jewish refugees from Muslim countries in the Middle East to Israel who constitute approximately 50 percent of the Jewish population of Israel – Jewish citizenry of Israel

    O The Arab Israeli people who constitute approximately 20 percent of the population of Israel – the citizenry of Israel – who, in most cases, are the still living members of, and the descendants of, the Arab people who did not flee from Israel immediately before, and during, and who were not expelled from Israel during, the 1948 intendedly genocidal attack on Israel by the armies of five Arab states in 1948, and of whom approximately 80 percent are Muslim, and of whom approximately 20 percent are, in some cases, Druze, and in otter cases Christian

    O The equal rights and equal protection under the law of Israel of all citizens of Israel

    O The ability of any person in the world to apply for citizenship of Israel in a way that is similar to the way that any person in the world can apply for citizenship of other democratic countries in the world

    These facts are utterly unknown by almost all people in the world, and, in most cases, are persistently “forgotten”, out of bigotry, by the leaders of the governments of Western countries, and are facts that must be clearly, repeatedly, effectively, told to leaders of the governments of Western countries and to the whole world in order to prevent the situation from becoming worse and in order to make the situation better.

    The way – the only way – to prevent the situation from becoming worse, and the way – the only way – to make the situation better, is for leaders of Israel to clearly, repeatedly, effectively, tell the factual history and current reality of the situation to the leaders of the governments of Western countries and to the whole world.

  44. Ray in Seattle says:

    “But after all that has been written here, is there anyone who can offer a simple phrase, or a sentence to explain such Jews, other then ‘self hating Jews?

    Yes. The “self” is not the same for Jews who support Israel and those who oppose it.

    Identity is an extremely powerful force in the mind. If one’s identity does not encompass the idea of Israel as a state of refuge for Jews – then they will have no problem working to harm or destroy that idea – especially if for whatever psychological reasons, their identity encompasses other antagonistic ideas such as noble savage-ism, post-modernism, blind pacifism, Islamism, political-leftism, etc.

    The forces of identity in the mind will always prevail. They are no match for reason.

  45. Ray in Seattle says:

    Ooops, reason is no match for them.

  46. Daniel Bielak says:

    The following are two things that Israeli leaders do that Israeli leaders need to stop doing.

    O Accepting, and acquiescing to, the lies and wrong views of, and appeasing, the leaders of the governments of Western states and Arab states – which Israeli leaders have been, for over 60 years, doing out of emotional timidity, and, increasingly, out of delusion and ignorance

    O Refraining, in passive-aggression, from telling the truth, that they know, about the situation to the leaders of Western countries – refraining, in passive-aggression, from verbally defending Israel, to leaders of Western countries, against lies that vilify Israel and that pervert the reality of the situation which Israeli leaders know are lies – which Israeli leaders do out of indignant anger and spite

  47. beastie goy says:

    Daniel,

    “Jewish Jew-Haters” sounds good.

  48. beastie goy says:

    A missing answer to the question why such/so many Jews hate Jewishness:
    Because they are allowed to do it.
    How many Self Hating Taliban are there?

    Another is zero-sum thinking:
    The Arabs are poorer, therefore we must be thieves.

  49. incognito says:

    If one’s identity does not encompass the idea of Israel as a state of refuge for Jews – then they will have no problem working to harm or destroy that idea

    That’s an important point, but I will put it slightly differently.

    Diaspora jews, particularly in the west have, more or less consciously, a sense of guilt that instead of living in the jewish nation they do what their ancestors do and assimilate, to prefer materialism and convenience to, for luck of a better word, duty or principle — hence this is a moral issue and therefore, a strongly emotional one.

    It is not surprising, then, that this translates into finding every possible fault with Israel to get rid of that guilt: look at what Israel does, is there any wonder that I won’t live there? It’s their justification.

    This probably does not apply to those who are born in full assimilation and have no clue about jewish history. But is surely active in jews who know something about that.

  50. incognito says:

    Pls put #43 in the context of their considering themselves as being morally superior, which is clashes with their failing to live in the jewish nation.

  51. I love how we’re psycho-analysing the phenomenon of self hating Jews like it’s a disorder (which it is). They have so many issues they don’t even realise and I’m finding everyone’s thoughts on them really fascinating. The thought of their reactions to being dissected like they’re schizo or something is hilarious!

  52. Cynic says:

    So what it basically comes down to is finding a name for those people so insecure that they are frightened to death of being associated with the collective guilt imposed on a group of humans by the rest of humanity projecting their sins on and damning that group.

    Too scared to stand up for themselves and the facts and make their case they succumb and resort to Quisling acts?

  53. Ray in Seattle says:

    Good comments lately – #43 especially. What you say must be related somewhat to Stockholm syndrome; I believe that if one is constantly subject to strong emotional pressure over a long period of time – they will adjust their beliefs to reduce that pressure.

    I have said previously that we adopt beliefs basically because it feels good. Of course that includes adopting beliefs if that helps us to not feel bad.

  54. Perat says:

    I agree with all your points as to the “types” of self-hating jews. But I feel like your rejection of the word is unnecessary. “self hating” does not mean they hate themselves, rather it means they hate being associated with being a jew. “Progressive” jews today often state that they feel more comfortable with their salsa dancing friends than their archaic religious brethren. They hate that by being born a jew, they are forever tied to the backwards thinking of talmudic jews. They, as you rightly expressed, want to be seen by society as progressive and morally pure and so reject their people to the point of ridiculousness.

    The reason I feel the rejection is so extreme is that because they ARE jewish and are ultimately connected with the backward thinking they abhor the most, in order to distance oneself as far as possible from Jews, the only way to do so is by demonizing them. This demonization is further encouraged when they are ironically seen as accurate for saying radical statements because it is about their own people for which they are trying to distance themselves from. This puts these jews at a paradoxical state because on the one hand they want to be rid of their judaism but on the other it serves a useful purpose of acceptance by their peers whom they view as morally superior to the jewish race.

  55. Perat says:

    So self-hating jew is accurate and appropriate because it states what these people hate most about themselves–the fact that they were born a jew. They hate themselves that they are jewish. Plain and simple.

  56. incognito says:

    They hate themselves that they are jewish.

    Not themselves; they hate being jewish, period.

  57. Daniel Bielak says:

    Please see my comment which I posted in which I listed important facts that leaders of Israel need to tell world leaders and that leaders of Israel and defenders of Israel need to tell the world – and which is a comment that was not posted immediately by the automatic blog server after I submitted it, and which is a comment that was recently posted by the automatic blog server and which is currently comment #43.

    Also, The following is a fact that I omitted in that comment.

    UNRWA is the name of the United Nations organization that was created just for the management and aid of the Arab refugees from, and the descendants of the Arab refugees from, the 1948 Muslim Arab attack on Israel, and whose sole official function is the management and aid of the Arab refugees from, and the descendants of the Arab refugees from, the 1948 Muslim Arab attack on Israel.

  58. Daniel Bielak says:

    Also, the following are also important facts that I omitted from my comment which is currently comment #43.

    O The taking over of the position of the leadership of the PLO by Yasser Arafat as the leader of Fatah in around 1969.

    O The Organization of the Islamic Conference (the OIC) – the largest, and controlling, voting bloc in the United Nations; the OIC is a coallition of 57 Muslim governments – 56 Muslim states and Fatah-PLO-PalestinianAuthority

  59. Daniel Bielak says:

    O The proposal, in 1947, by the United Nations, to create one Arab state – consisting of more fertile land – and one Jewish state – consisting of less fertile land – in the part of the British Mandate of Palestine which had not become Transjordan – which was a proposal that Jewish leaders – the Jewish Zionist leadership – accepted, and which was a proposal that Arab leaders – the Arab leadership (constituted by the Arab Higher Commitee, headed by Amin al-Husseini, and constituted by the leaders of Arab states) – refused.

  60. Daniel Bielak says:

    Clarification:

    O The proposal, in 1947, by the newly-formed United Nations…

  61. Daniel Bielak says:

    “Overcome the liar with the truth”
    – The Buddha

  62. Perat says:

    Incognito wrote: Not themselves; they hate being jewish, period

    Exactly my point. But the fact still stands that they are jewish and as much as they want to be separated from their hated jewishness they can’t. But being jewish is not just religion, its ethnically and hereditarily based so being jewish in essence DEFINES him whether he likes it or not.

    And to Jews whose Jewishness defines their existence, a jew who hates his fellow jews is clearly self-hating because they are rejecting the most central and important part of themselves–their jewishness. So the term was created by jews who suffered at the hands of fellow jews who hated their race.

  63. Daniel Bielak says:

    Perat,

    I think that no living being hates himself or herself.

    I think that living beings may hate the situation that they are in, and may hate aspects of the self-identity that they view themselves as having, but I think that no living being hates himself or herself. I think that every living being, at a deep, root, level, loves himself or herself.

    I think that the term “self-hating Jew” is inaccurate, and I think that using the term “self-hating Jew” is unbeneficial.

    I think that using the term “self-hating Jew” is harmful to Jewish people.

    I think that one of the most unbeneficial things – harmful things – that is involved with using the term “self-hating Jew” is that, because anti-Jewish bigotry is a normal, normative, engrained part of culturally Christian-European Christian and Post-Christian culture (and Muslim Middle-Eastern culture), the term “self-hating Jew” may wrongly imply, by many people in Western societies, and to many people in Western societies, that Jewish poeple are bad and, in fact, “hateable”.

    That is the first thing that I understood, and felt hurt by, when I first heard that term – which was when I was about twelve years old – and which I heard, at that time, being used by someone who was my teacher at my school – a Christian Protestant private school – and who was a (politically liberal) Christian Protestant cleric.

  64. Daniel Bielak says:

    When I heard that person who was my teacher, and who was a politically liberal Christian Protestant cleric, and who was someone that I, at that time, loved, use that term I immediately felt that he felt sympathy for the hatred of Jewishness that I immediately felt was meant by the euphemism of “‘self’-hate” that was implied by the euphemistic term “self-hating Jew”.

    He previously, or subsequently, said other things that I, later, understood showed that he held bigoted antipathetic wrong views about Jewish people.

    One of the things that he said that I later understood showed that he held bigoted antipathetic wrong views about Jewish people is the following.

    He said that “everyone is prejudiced”, and, as an example to support what he said, he said that “Jewish people are prejudiced against Nazis.”

    At that time I eagerly swallowed what he said – but did so with some unease.

    However, when I told my parents that thing that he said – which I said to my parents because I was trying to express to my parents that “everyone is prejudiced” to try to show them how beneficially “open-minded” that I thought that I was, and in trying to make my parents be what I thought was beneficially “open-minded”, they were horrified and shocked, and they argued to me that, or said things that made me, by myself, realize that, Jewish people were, in fact, not “prejudiced” against Nazis because Nazis were, by definition, people who held certain antipathetic wrong views about, and hated, Jewish people and who commited genocide against Jewish people.

  65. Daniel Bielak says:

    Correction:

    “…sympathy for the hatred of Jewishness…”

    should be,

    “…sympathy for the hatred toward Jewishness…”

    Also (but not a correction),

    That thing happened when I was about twelve years old.

    That thing happened in around the year 1986.

  66. andrew says:

    I believe that incognito (#49) has a very good point in
    emphasizing the sense of guilt. I also believe that this sense of guilt is, of necessity, stronger in societies, like E.U., where the media are so resolutely anti-Israeli (the term ”antizionist” is absurd: it would make a genuine hatred appear as simple ideology). This sense of guilt can have various simultaneous, while contradictory, directions: sense of guilt, as pointed out by incognito, at being a ”bad Jew”, together with (this should explain in part why so many academics lie in the category under discussion) sense of guilt at not having the same opinions as one’s colleagues. Who can tell up to which point some family relations can be destroyed when there
    is disagreement on such important questions ? Could not
    the extreme so-called ”antizionism” of ”bad Jews”
    be in part a desperado’s attitude ?

  67. incognito says:

    But the fact still stands that they are jewish and as much as they want to be separated from their hated jewishness they can’t.

    Which precisely explains the vehemence of the hatred: they are frustrated because they have no control over that and they must express as an intense disassociation as possible.

    Instead of hating the anti-semites who are the root of the problem, they hate their own. This is exactly what Wieselthier meant when he said about Judt that he is REPLICATING anti-semitism.

    And to Jews whose Jewishness defines their existence, a jew who hates his fellow jews is clearly self-hating because they are rejecting the most central and important part of themselves–their jewishness

    My guess is that for the haters jewishness does NOT define their existence. Just the opposite: they hate it because it’s others who define them as jews, which they don’t want to be.

  68. incognito says:

    Andrew,

    It goes like this: If Israel would just go away, we would not have to feel guilty anymore and all this anti-semitism will also go away.

    Desperado delusion.

  69. Daniel Bielak says:

    I feel badly because I think that my writing may have incited anger and despair or other harmful feelings. I hope that my writing did not cause anger or despair or other harmful feelings. I apologize.

    By the way, I’m Jewish.

    Things can be made better.

    Israeli leaders just need to, first, become aware of the truth, and, then, tell the truth.

    The situation is hard and difficult, and getting out of the situation is difficult – but it is possible to get out of the situation – it takes skillful action to get out of the situation. It requires skillful speech.

    In any case, it is possible for everyone to do things that make their own situation better.

    I hope that everyone is feeling okay.

  70. Rich Rostrom says:

    14 incognito: after 6 million of those who achieved that “substantial emancipation” you refer to, the Zionists had to question it just a bit…

    Zionism predated the Holocaust by over forty years.

    23 incognito: Hey, Rich, see what I mean?

    Of course I know about the Dreyfus Affair. Dreyfus was eventually exonerated and his accusers were discredited, because those who stood for the civil and social equality of Jews fought and won.

    Herzl, on the other hand, thought it meant that European antisemitism was eternal and implacable. He was ready to give up the battle for Jewish acceptance.

    Naturally, those Jews who were still fighting that battle opposed his doctrine as Jews, not merely as non-Jews using convenient inherited Jewish surnames.

    24 Eliyahu: Rich, the Jews were historically considered a separate nation or people in Europe –and had a separate legal status in the various Euro countries– into the 19th century…

    And by the end of the 19th century, in the most advanced countries, this separate legal status and associated handicaps hand been largely removed and Jews were recognized as full citizens. Those Jews who had fought for decades to gain this result objected to what they saw as revival of the contrary idea of Jewish separateness by Zionism. They did so as Jews.

    I don’t share this objection, but I can see why a Jew would make it, as a Jew.

  71. incognito says:

    Zionism predated the Holocaust by over forty years…
    Herzl, on the other hand, thought it meant that European antisemitism was eternal and implacable. He was ready to give up the battle for Jewish acceptance.

    Yes, but I was careful to mention not just the holocaust, but the also the various cases of oppression of jews in history before the holocaust e.g. pogroms etc. The Dreyfus affair demonstrated that the systematic hatred of jews had was as intense as ever. The vindication of Dreyfuss did not eliminate it either.

    You are quite cavalier in arguing that there was no longer any reason for a Jewish nation by the time zionism emerged.

    If you think that most anti-semitism today is due to Israel, you are wrong. The jews have been a traditional scapegoat in most of the crises, even when Israel did not exist. And they’ll probably continue to be even if Israel disappears.

    That’s the precise reason why it should not.

  72. Daniel Bielak says:

    Correction:

    I wrote,

    “O The 800,000 to 1,000,000 Jewish refugees from Muslim countries in the Middle East to Israel who constitute approximately 50 percent of the Jewish population of Israel – Jewish citizenry of Israel”

    which should be,

    O The 800,000 to 1,000,000 Jewish refugees from Muslim countries in the Middle East to Israel whose still living members, and whose descendants, constitute approximately 50 percent of the population of Israel – Jewish citizenry of Israel

  73. Daniel Bielak says:

    Correction (to my previous correction):

    …50 percent of the Jewish population of Israel – Jewish citizenry of Israel…

  74. Brian says:

    I call them “Uncle Tom Jews” after the famous American novel Uncle Tom’s Cabin by Harriett Beecher Stow about a black slave who had to appear “whiter than white”. Read the book – you’ll see what I mean.

  75. Cynic says:

    incognito,

    I think with your #67 and my #52 we basically come to a “Jewishness fearing Jew” JfJ person.
    His dislike and animosity and eventually hatred is basically born of fear.

    The fear of having their Jewish roots pinned on their donkey, in some manner or means, increases to the extent that they then become actively engaged in denigrating that disgusting tail.

  76. Cynic says:

    Rich,

    And by the end of the 19th century, in the most advanced countries, this separate legal status and associated handicaps hand been largely removed and Jews were recognized as full citizens. Those Jews who had fought for decades to gain this result objected to what they saw as revival of the contrary idea of Jewish separateness by Zionism. They did so as Jews.

    Firstly, Herzl saw things in the contemporary setting of the 1800s with the German philosophers, Marx and the Russians as a counterpoint to the French world.

    Secondly, the penultimate sentence beautifully personifies the British Jew.

  77. Eliyahu says:

    Rich, in addition to Herzl, before him Leon Pinsker had written Autoemancipation which describes the real condition of the Jews in various countries in Europe and elsewhere. The recent re-edition of Autoemancipation in French has a note by the editor, Georges Bensoussan. He points out that Pinsker writes that the countries where the Jews were worst treated were the Russian Empire, Rumania [newly independent at that time from the Ottoman Empire], and the kingdom of Morocco. Bensoussan observes that Pinsker should have included Persia [Iran] in that category but did not do so, most likely out of ignorance. So Jews were treated better in France than in the Russian Empire or Morocco. Great! But in the Second Reich, Germany, and in the Oestreich [Austria] Jews were legally inferior up to the end of those Reichs after WW I, as far as I know. Rumania, cited by Pinsker, had given guarantees at the Congress of Berlin that they would make nice to the Jews in independent Rumania. But they didn’t keep their promises. So what were Pinsker, or Herzl later on, supposed to think of the value of promises made to international forums like the Congress of Berlin?? More or less dependable than promises made to the League of Nations or the UN? How would you rate those promises, Rich? Can we have a Fitch or Dow-Jones or Moody’s rating for international promises and commitments as we have ratings for sovereign debt???

  78. incognito says:

    Cynic,

    Re #74: agreed. As far as I know there has always been a segment of such jews in history.

  79. incognito says:

    Eliyahu,

    Rumania, cited by Pinsker, had given guarantees at the Congress of Berlin that they would make nice to the Jews in independent Rumania. But they didn’t keep their promises.

    Romania has always been an anti-semitic country and is even today.

    And Peres just went there and thanked them for saving jews, in defiance of the real history.

  80. incognito says:

    Cynic,

    And here is a top specimen making it explicit:

    The Hubris of Peter Beinart
    by Ron Radosh
    http://pajamasmedia.com/ronradosh/2010/08/17/the-hubris-of-peter-beinart/

    What is interesting is how his arguments have absolutely nothing to do with the reality. It seems like their fear causes them to halluciante.

  81. E.G. says:

    I stick to Alter-Jews. IMO this term is the most descriptively accurate.
    Alter-Jews are self defined Jews — but of a different, Other, kind. They’re converted, though not like Theobald to Christianity, but to the religion of Peace (pun intended). Their knowledge of Judaism and Judaic thought is, at best, partial and distorted, as is their knowledge of history and in particular that of the Zionist movements, thinking, and actions.

    Of course Alter-Jews love their own selves, and admire themselves even more, but I suspect that more than they hate their fellow-Jews who have not yet seen the Light, they despise them.
    Alter-Jews are a different brand of Jews, that is not very Jewish. “Proud to be ashamed to be Jewish” is founded on stereotypical, shallow, perverted images of Judaism.

  82. incognito says:

    IOW, they’re not different than the vast majority of westerners, but they delude themselves they are.

  83. andrew says:

    For French-reading readers,

    A very good paper on the subject:
    ”Enderlin, la haine soi, suite” on

    http://www.aschkel.info/article-enderlin-la-haine-de-soi-suite-55578124.html

  84. E.G. says:

    Andrew,

    Thanks, I read both Alain Rubin’s and “Félix” texts.

    As I see it, they both don’t realise that the phenomenon is not about hatred of either self or others, be they more or less similar. It’s much more about “otherness”: empathy with some worthy Other (person/cause), attribution of guilt to unworthy others, and positioning the self in some point between and mostly above the worthy and unworthy Other — neither as guilty as the last nor as oppressed hence rightfully revengeful as the first.

    I suspect that what some of these post-1967 “Zionist” Olim have in mind is not what was actually happening in “little Israel” and around it just before they came. Furthermore, some of their Zionism was nourished by disgust of their diaspora environment (Capitalist, Colonial…) and high hopes and expectations about the “new Jews” (fighters, Egalitarians…) after the victory of the 6-days War.
    I suppose they’re bitter because Israel and Israeli society never matched their idea(l)s.

  85. beastie goy says:

    How about: “(Self-Adoring) Crusader Jews”?

    After all, they are Jews who fight side by side with warriors from other cultures against Israel.

    What about: “Jewish Crusader Narcissists”?
    That has an unpleasant sound to it.

  86. beastie goy says:

    Forget my suggestion.
    Christians would get it wrong.

  87. incognito says:

    Must watch:

    Israel Through Israeli Eyes
    by Michael J. Totten
    http://pajamasmedia.com/michaeltotten/2010/08/18/israel-through-israeli-eyes/

  88. E.G. says:

    An Alter-Jew’s (Avrum Burg) discourse:

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3937574,00.html

    Note the disdainful tone from the beginning. And then,

    In reality, we are already in the next chapter in the book of Israeliness [...] This chapter requires all to make every effort to turn into a model society of justice, humanity, and morality.

    A society is not enough? Where does the model demand come from?

    [...]we demand politics of vision and broad thinking; one that would reconnect us to the important Western movements, those of modernity, tolerance, and enlightenment.

    Frankly, I’m not sure where this trend can be found. Israel is already more modern and tolerant than many “Western movements” — especially those “enlightened” by post-modernism that barely tolerate parts of their own.

    Of course, there is the inevitable recruitment of partial Jewish wisdom:

    All our prophets – Ezekiel, Isaiah, Amos, and Hosea – taught us that we cannot live in this home if it’s not a house of justice.

    Quite a few prophets are missing, and although Justice is indeed a fundamental element in Judaism, what’s the point of bringing it up when one argues that

    There is no such thing as Jewish democracy if it means democracy for Jews only.

  89. Daniel Bielak says:

    E.G.,

    Good comments. I agree with what you wrote about Alter-Jews. Well spoken.

    The Alter-Jews such as Avrum Burg are revolting. They are disgusting. The harm they cause is immense. They are imbecilic and deranged. Alter-Jews such as Avrum Burg have been the the scourge of Jewish people for millenia. They are egomanical imbeciles who have incorporated the obscene accusations of obscenely immoral surreally hypocritical non-Jewish attackers of the Jewish people against Jewish people with the chauvanistic, but hyper-self-critical self-flagellating elements of the traditional religion of the Jewish people.

    Alter-Jews such as Avrum Burg have no self-awareness. The harm they cause is immense. They need to be shamed. They need to be put in their place, with truth, by people who are more dispassionate than me and who are more articulate than me.

  90. Daniel Bielak says:

    I apologize for the angry rant that I did in my previous comment. I realize that it is not beneficial to speak angry anger-inciting passion-inciting words.

  91. E.G. says:

    Daniel,

    Burg does not deserve your anger: he’s irrelevant in Israel (except for his pension paid by the state of Israel), and is considered indeed as detached from reality.
    His op-ed can be considered as “Isstra Bilgina Kish-Kish Karia” (that’s in the original Aramaic) – A single coin in a box makes lots of noise.

    But it is an example of excessive concern for the “Noble Other” (Arabs) at the expense of those who are supposedly “similar others” (Jews, especially Israeli Jews), denying justice to the latter in the name of high moral principles anchored in Judaism. For his ilk, Justice for Jews means higher requirements and more duties for them.

  92. Daniel Bielak says:

    I know that it was wrong of me to do that. I know that it was wrong of me to write those harmful angry words. I apologize. I hope that I did not cause too much harm. I apologize.

    I especially apologize to E.G. I hope that I did not ruin the very beneficial things that E.G. said.

    I admire E.G. for his well-spoken words, and I am grateful to E.G. for his well-spoken words. E.G. and everyone, please forgive me for my wrong actions. I have severe OCD and and I am in a difficult situation. I am distressed. I apologize. Please forgive me.

  93. E.G. says:

    Daniel,

    Your initial reaction is normal.
    Please stop apologising.

  94. Eliyahu says:

    Daniel & EG, I have met burg here in Jerusalem. He is really repulsive and I commend Daniel for calling him and his like: “egomanical imbeciles.” Yes, Daniel he is revolting. And you never met him, I assume. Yet you have made a fair and accurate, if generous description of burg. I met him here about 20 years ago or more. I told him the Talmudic story of the ancient Jewish king who told his wife on his deathbed: Don’t fear the Pharisees and don’t fear those who are not Pharisees. The ones to fear are the hypocrites.

    Burg told me that he didn’t like the story. At that time, I did not yet understand just how corrupt he was. I now know a man who ran against Burg in the Labor party primary for Knesset. I am told of a whole series of dirty tricks that Burg played to win a higher place on the Labor party election list. By the way, burg was part of the Kfar haYarok group that aimed to take over the Labor Party and bring “peace.” A fellow member was Hayim Ramon, another human slug.

    Recently I read that burg was going to set up a new party to bring “peace” and a “binational” state and what not. But since he is widely despised in Israel, who will follow him?? Daniel, don’t blame yourself for anything harsh that you said against burg. He is a swine.

  95. E.G. says:

    And here is Robert Redeker’s piece on Taguieff’s book (in French):

    http://www.primo-info.eu/selection.php?numdoc=Ed-528674233

    Yes, the one that was refused by the Luxembourg “Tageblatt”.

  96. Eliyahu says:

    burg chooses his prophets. He did not choose Joel who said:
    Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruning hooks into spears.

    There are prophets and there are prophets.

  97. Daniel Bielak says:

    E.G.,

    Thank you for telling me that. Your telling me that makes me feel better.

    Eliyahu,

    Thank you too for forgiving me and for commmiserating with me.

    I know that it’s not good to speak in anger, but it’s nice to have people – friends and friendly like-minded people – with whom one can get things off one’s chest with. It’s just that this is a public forum and I feel badly that I say things that I think may be unbeneficial to say in a public forum, but this forum is really the only outlet that I have for communicating with other people, so I hope that the angry harmful words that I sometimes say in this forum don’t cause too much harm. What I mean is that I hope that the harmful things that I sometimes say on this forum don’t any cause harm. I don’t want to cause any harm.

  98. Daniel Bielak says:

    Thank you E.G. for your kind well-spoken words.

    Thank you Eliyahu for your kind words.

    Eliyahu, no I haven’t met Avrum Burg. Just those words of his that E.G. quoted are enough for me to know what his views are. What those words that Avrum Brug communicated said that E.G. quoted are what those words are.

    I’ve heard enough of other people who are like him to understand and know the views of people like that. I have observed Jewish people around me. I have watched and heard people like that on television and on the internet. I know the situation. I know my own mind and I know how I could think that way, and how I kind of did think that way, in partial similar way, to a relatively small degree, in the past. I understand the the situation. I understand the minds of those Jewish people. I understand how those Jewish people think.

  99. incognito says:

    Guys,

    Anybody who, in order to take position detaches himself from reality is not worth wasting time on.

    The most obvious aspect of the detachment in Burg’s case is that there is only one side to the conflict: Israel.
    For somebody so moral as he is, he pays no notice to the behavior and culture of the pals and arabs because, after all, they are SOOOOOOOO moral, right?

    To laugh or cry?

  100. E.G. says:

    incognito,

    We are dealing with Alter-Jews who characteristically detach themselves from many things, reality included.

  101. Daniel Bielak says:

    E.G.

    The problem is that people like Avrum Burg cause harm because of how their actions harmfully affect Jewish poeple (and, eventually, indirectly, non-Jewish people) because of how they are seen by ignorant non-Jewish people and how they are used by malicious attackers of Jewish people.

    They would not have such a large and harmful effect if leaders of Israel would (*act like normal human beings* and, in so doing) speak well – honestly, accurately, clearly – effectively – and defend their people and country from lies, and just generally act like normal human beings and beneficially protect themselves and their people and country from harm.

    Jewish people are a very egalitarian and empathetic people. They govern themselves. They have survived and prospered without having leaders. The people of Israel has survived and prospered in spite of their leaders. However, in this world, people, group of people, need leaders who are wise and who will protect them from malicious antagonistic groups of other people who attack them.

    It is possible, and it is beneficial, to protect oneself and one’s people non-violently.

  102. incognito says:

    Looks like we have alter-jews in Israel’s emabassies too:

    Bungle at Israeli London Embassy
    Posted by Isi Leibler
    http://cgis.jpost.com/Blogs/Leibler/entry/bungle_at_israel_london_embassy

    I hope they are just incompetent.

  103. E.G. says:

    Daniel,

    Alter-Jews are persuaded that their way is the most non-harmful and beneficial way to preserve and protect the Jewish people. First and foremost from itself.

  104. Daniel Bielak says:

    E.G.,

    “First and foremost from itself.”

    That is exactly the problem.

    The harm is coming from outside not from inside.

    The alter-Jews are severely experiencing a particular form of Stockholm Syndrome.

  105. Daniel Bielak says:

    Many Jewish people – diaspora Jewish people and, I think, Israeli Jewish people – including leaders of Israel are experiencing, to varying degrees, a particular form of Stockholm Syndrome.

    That is why the truth about the situation – the factual history – needs to be communicated – especially first to Jewish people – and especially first to leaders of Israel.

  106. E.G. says:

    incognito,

    I wouldn’t discount the hypothesis of a Levy acolyte at the Embassy. Yes, there are at the MFA.

  107. Daniel Bielak says:

    Please see my comments (currently listed as #43, #58, #59 and other correcting comments) in which I listed some important facts about the situation that need to be communicated to Israeli leaders and to leaders of other countries and to the whole world.

    Those are just some of the facts that need to be communicated.

    Israeli leaders and Jewish people need to gain confidence and need to tell the world the truth.

    Israeli leaders need to tell Arab leaders and Arab people the truth.

    Israeli leaders need to stand up for themselves and for their people and for their country. With the strength of knowing the truth and having peace of mind, and in peace. Then they can truly reach out to Arab leaders and Arab people – which they need to do – but they need to do so with self-confidence and with truth and with wisdom.

  108. E.G. says:

    Daniel,

    We’ve had this argument before – I don’t think Alter-Jews suffer from Stockholm Syndrome. They don’t identify with either Israel/the Zionist Jews or the Arabs/Palestinians: their empathy towards the latter should not be confused with identification – they feel superior to both.
    I suspect they’re obsessed by power: both terrified by it (when it’s held by those whom they see as their opponents/enemies) and attracted to it (in order to exert it themselves).
    For some (psycho-historic?) reason, the idea of Jews collectively exerting power seems repulsive for them, whereas powerful individuals, Jewish or not, seems OK with them. Especially when it’s themselves who are those individuals.

    Their dissociation from their fellow-Jews is more vanity than anything else. They strive to lead (i.e., exert power, influence), open new roads and direct the people towards new destinies: the illuminated paths that they have discovered.

  109. Daniel Bielak says:

    E.G.,

    I think that you are right about Alter-Jews. I think that Alter-Jews are experiencing a deluded detrimental mental state from Stockholm Syndrome. I think that alter-Jews are experiencing a deluded detrimental mental state that is different from Stockholm Syndrome. I think that Alter-Jews are experiencing a deluded detrimental mental state in which there are prominent factors which are different from, and maybe which are in addition to, factors that are involved with Stockholm Syndrome.

    But, I think that very many other Jewish people – at least very many diaspora Jewish people and at least some Israeli Jewish people, including leaders of Israel – are experiencing, to varying degrees, a deluded detrimental mental state that is a form of Stockholm Syndrome. A form of Stockholm Syndrome that is unique to the unique experiences that Jewish people have experienced (environmental psychological experiences).

  110. Daniel Bielak says:

    Correction:

    “I think that Alter-Jews are experiencing a deluded detrimental mental state from Stockholm Syndrome.”

    should be,

    “I think that Alter-Jews are experiencing a different deluded detrimental mental state from Stockholm Syndrome.”

  111. Daniel Bielak says:

    E.G.,

    I think that the two syndromes – Alter-Jew Syndrome and the form of Stockholm Syndrome that I think very many Jewish people experience – are related to each other. I think that there are factors that they share. Egocentric self-view and fear (fear of being disliked by non-Jewish people). I think that in Alter-Jew Syndrome the factor of egocentric self-view is much more prominent than in the form of Stockholm-Syndrome that I think very many Jewish people experience, and I think that in Alter-Jewish Syndrome egocentric self-view is extreme, and, I think, is the most prominent factor. I think that fear (of being disliked by non-Jewish people) is the most prominent factor in the form of Stockholm Syndrome that I think very many Jewish people experience.

    The following is a link to, and an excerpt from, an article by Kenneth Levin about what I think is the form of Stockholm Syndrome that I think very many Jewish people experience.

    “The Psychology of Populations under Chronic Siege”, by Kenneth Levin
    http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-046-levin.htm

    The Psychology of Chronically Abused Children

    On the level of individual psychology, the paradigm is the psychology of chronically abused children. This most typically means children subjected to parental abuse. Almost invariably, such children blame themselves for their predicament. They tell themselves, “I am treated this way because I am bad, and if I become good I will be treated better.”

    This phenomenon is widely recognized by psychiatrists, psychologists, and social workers and is most often ascribed to children’s naïveté. According to this interpretation, the abusers tell their young victims that the abuse is punishment for their being “bad,” and the children, in their naïveté, accept this at face value.

    But children are not that naive. The victimized child of an alcoholic father or a chronically depressed, withdrawn, and irritable mother knows that he or she is being treated badly. Nevertheless, such children almost invariably choose to repress that knowledge and to believe that changes in their own behavior – behaving in a more exemplary fashion, being more attentive to the parents’ needs and wishes – can change their parents’ ways and win them a better life.

    To comprehend the motivation for this self-delusion, consider the existential predicament of such children. They can, on the one hand, acknowledge their essential helplessness and the hopelessness of their situation. On the other, they can delude themselves, blame themselves for their victimization, and endure the guilt of that self-indictment, of perceiving themselves as “bad,” but also preserve the hope that by their own action, by becoming “good,” they can win relief. Children almost invariably choose to avoid hopelessness at all costs, and adults do the same.

  112. Daniel Bielak says:

    To comprehend the motivation for this self-delusion, consider the existential predicament of such children. They can, on the one hand, acknowledge their essential helplessness and the hopelessness of their situation. On the other, they can delude themselves, blame themselves for their victimization, and endure the guilt of that self-indictment…

    However, the situation is, in fact, not hopeless. One can free oneself from the situation by skillful action. To realize that the situation is not hopeless – to realize that one can free oneself from the situation – is the cure for the deluded detrimental mental state. To realize that the situation is not hopeless – to realize that one can free oneself from the situation with skillful action – requires knowledge and mindfulness and discernment and understanding, and, to free oneself from the situation with skillful action requires knowledge and mindfulness and discernment and understanding.

    In the case of Israel and the Jewish people, Israeli Jewish people and diaspora Jewish people can free themselves with skillful speech – Israeli Jewish people and diaspora Jewish people can be freed from the situation that they are in by, most importantly, skillful speech by leaders of Israel.

  113. Daniel Bielak says:

    Alter-Jews (Jewish people who are experiencing Alter-Jew Syndrome) do not blame themselves. Alter-Jews (Jewish people who are experiencing Alter-Jew Syndrome) blame other Jewish people.

    Jewish people who are experiencing the form of Stockholm Syndrome that I think very many Jewish people are experiencing blame themselves. They include themselves in the people that they blame. They view themselves as belonging to the group of people that they blame.

    That, I think, is the core difference.

  114. Ray in Seattle says:

    Danial says, “In the case of Israel and the Jewish people, Israeli Jewish people and diaspora Jewish people can free themselves with skillful speech – Israeli Jewish people and diaspora Jewish people can be freed from the situation that they are in by, most importantly, skillful speech by leaders of Israel.”

    “Skillful speech” must be processed by the intellectual brain in order to have meaning. It enters consciousness first by way of reason and then must be interpreted according to one’s existing beliefs – which is how they may acquire emotional potency to affect behavior.

    What this means is that since the AI conflict is a highly emotional situation, the words anyone uses on either side to justify their policies and actions will be interpreted as lies and ignorance by their enemies – no matter how objectively truthful those words may be. Brains in lethal conflict do not allow any other outcome.

    Israel needs skillful actions, not skillful words. But what Israel also needs is skillful images. Those can provide immediate emotional potency. Israel’s enemies know this. That’s why they make such an effort at Pallywood and in the Reuter’s Photo-shop.

    The Time magazine cover showing the Muslim girl missing her ear and nose probably did more good for Israel’s cause than a million words could have done. Even though the girl is not Palestinian she is a Muslim victim of fundamentalist Islam. That belief system was indelibly connected to the unspeakable horror and cruelty of its own way of life in the emotional consciousness of any Westerner who saw it.

    The beliefs underlying Arab/Muslim irredentism and hatred of Jews and beliefs about Israel are equally as ugly and destructive of all that is innocent and worthwhile in the world. Israel is defending its people and existence while carefully avoiding unnecessary destruction and death on the Palestinian side. Finding the right images to convey that emotional truth should be job-one for Israel’s leaders and for those outside Israel who are hoping for Israel’s survival. If I may offer another perspective as a non-Jew it’s long past time for skillful words.

  115. incognito says:

    I wouldn’t discount the hypothesis of a Levy acolyte at the Embassy. Yes, there are at the MFA.

    Reasonable guess.

  116. E.G. says:

    incognito,

    O/T, a propos a previous discussion (French Jews):
    http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/spages/1185384.html

    In previous years, the tone of such articles used to be much more derisive.

  117. incognito says:

    What this means is that since the AI conflict is a highly emotional situation, the words anyone uses on either side to justify their policies and actions will be interpreted as lies and ignorance by their enemies – no matter how objectively truthful those words may be.

    Does the fact that arabs/pals lie as a matter of culture and policy while this is not an Israeli cultural trait make any difference, given your framework?

    In fact, the world take the pal lies as truth and Israel’s truth as lies. And the only way this can happen is under willful ignorance. That’s how emotions become salient in the first place and then they induce the willfulness.

    If no critical thinking, logic, reasoning, reliance on evidence are instilled in people EARLY ON and THROUGHOUT their education (not schooling) process, the only tool they will have are emotions.

    That’s why they make such an effort at Pallywood and in the Reuter’s Photo-shop.

    These are faked images. Are you suggesting Israel should replicate this? Do you think the world will treat Israeli images the way they treat the pals?

    Finding the right images to convey that emotional truth should be job-one for Israel’s leaders and for those outside Israel who are hoping for Israel’s survival.

    But I thought that people are emotionally predisposed to disbelieve Israeli images, no?

  118. E.G. says:

    Daniel,

    I still don’t share your analysis on Alter-Jews.
    One can find quite a few psychological explanations to such behaviour, among them distorted/fake memory of the past and past traumas, including vicarious experience of Shoah survivors and/or their children. But I’m not sure this can provide us with anything useful. OTOH, this psychologist’ semi-eulogy of Tony Judt may provide some interesting hints:

    http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/strenger-than-fiction/strenger-than-fiction-tony-judt-s-jewish-identity-1.308414

    As a result both Judt and Arendt were accused of being “self-hating Jews” or even anti-Semites, an accusation that is ignoble, intellectually shallow and ultimately dangerous, because it is used to delegitimize the majority of Jews worldwide, whether secular or religious, who are liberal. Many Jews subscribe to the political and moral values of the Enlightenment that were so dear to Arendt and Judt. This is the standpoint from which they are often critical of Israel; but it is also a proud and creative tradition within modern Jewish history.

    It is, I believe, also profoundly un-Jewish to delegitimize these views instead of arguing with them: the spirit of plugta, of incisive, uncompromising debate is as much an essential part of the Jewish tradition as tribal loyalty. There are moments in which these values conflict, and no side should have a monopoly on claiming whether critical thought or unquestioned loyalty must prevail at any given point.

  119. Cynic says:

    I think this article by David Solway interesting in that provides some cogent argument for the human behavioral aspect we are trying to define.

    Israel and the West

    In his thought-provoking book The Lucifer Principle, Harold Bloom, relying on years of zoological research, points out how “a strange thing happens when humans and other animals are cornered by the uncontrollable. Their perceptions shut down, their thoughts grow more clouded, and they have a harder time generating new solutions to their problems.” This kind of syncope can manifest itself in a number of different ways: a feigned lack of interest when presented with a threat, as when a once-dominant ape pretends to focus on a banana peel rather than respond to the challenge mounted by a formidable claimant to his throne, or when a rat frustrated by its powerlessness before an intimidating rival will attack a lesser member of the pack.

    These are useful concepts and insights that can help us get a bead on the crucial issues of the day. Nature is of a piece. What goes for the ape and the rat, solacing themselves with avoidance mechanisms or the fiction of authority, goes for the individual human being as it does for the nation as a whole, and, indeed, for the very framework of the civilization of which they form a part. When an organism or a “superorganism” senses that it is losing control, that its favored position atop the dominance hierarchy is no longer assured and that it is facing the prospect of imminent dispossession, as if by reflex it turns aside, practices the art of studied indifference or develops an array of subterfuges—what Bloom terms the “endorphin strategy” that makes us feel good while it dulls the senses and cripples the intellect. It almost invariably contents itself by blanking out the menace or mugging its weaker partners and cohabitants.

  120. Cynic says:

    E.G.,

    There are moments in which these values conflict, and no side should have a monopoly on claiming whether critical thought or unquestioned loyalty must prevail at any given point.

    Especially when a “critical thought” can lead to bloodshed and mayhem?

  121. Cynic says:

    incognito,

    In fact, the world take the pal lies as truth and Israel’s truth as lies. And the only way this can happen is under willful ignorance. That’s how emotions become salient in the first place and then they induce the willfulness.

    There is no willful ignorance so much as willful maliciousness. They want to see blood and gore.

  122. E.G. says:

    Cynic,

    I do not adhere to Stenger’s assertions. I find them interesting as indicators of logical sequences.
    For example, his (mis)characterisation of Judaism as comprising some tension between a culture of debate and “tribal loyalty”. And the opposition of these to the values of Enlightenment.

    Regarding the excerpt from Solway, indeed closure of the mind and withdrawal, preoccupation with the insignificant at the expense of the significant aspects of the situation (inversion of the importance scale) seem to characterise some alter-Jews’ behaviours. But the context is very different: are these persons “losing control, that its favored position atop the dominance hierarchy is no longer assured and that it is facing the prospect of imminent dispossession”?
    To me it seems that the contrary is happening: the more they withdraw from the real situation (see above: detachment), the higher their position e.g., in Academic/ “intellectual” circles.

    I think I’d better specify that, to my sense, Alter also stands (as shorthand) for alternative. Alter-Jews both choose alternative ways to be Jewish and offer their chosen fashion for others to follow, as an alternative to more mainstream manners of “the Jewish experience”.

  123. Ray in Seattle says:

    incog asks, Does the fact that arabs/pals lie as a matter of culture and policy while this is not an Israeli cultural trait make any difference, given your framework?

    We use different paradigms of how the brain works and so my explanations will not make sense to you. That said, it is the strongest emotional beliefs in one’s mind that guides their behavior. Lying is seen as minor (a low valence sin) since most people know that they often lie themselves if the cause is sufficient – such as avoiding a friend’s hurt feelings.

    Pro-pals see Pal lying as one of the few means the “poor helpless Palestinians” have to counter the great advantage of their “brutal Israeli oppressors” – and so forgive them and even tacitly help them promote the lies – because it’s all for the best in their minds – ridding the Palestinians of the “brutal Israeli occupation”. The quoted phrases in that run-on sentence mark the high valence emotional beliefs in their minds. Those easily overpower any minor emotional qualms they might have with lying.

    The hard part is to explain that this is all a non-conscious emotional process. Their brains do not allow them to detach from their emotional beliefs and objectively analyze what is actually going on because that would be uncomfortable. And so these are emotional conclusions, not intellectual conclusions that you can combat with reason and evidence.

    If their emotional conclusions are challenged publicly they may use their intellect to concoct “reasonable sounding” justifications. Not in reaction to some “cognitive dissonance” but to seek social approval from their allies and avoid social humiliation from their enemies. But the usual justifications and apologetics for Palestinian genocidal ambitions are running thin these days (because of events like the Time mag cover and reports of poisoning of girls in Afghanistan, etc.) So, they are more likely to simply attack their detractors with insults – calling them bigots, warmongers and racists – keeping things firmly in the emotional zone where they have a chance.

    Is it important to see the conflict through this window? Only if you want to discredit it for what it is and replace it with reality and support for Israel’s defensive cause on the world stage.

    That requires understanding how human brains work and using that to your advantage. Pretending that the pro-Pal left are dumb, uneducated and lack critical thinking skills and trying to convince others of that will not get you very far. People sense that you are just applying your own emotional beliefs (hate for your enemy) in opposition to theirs – and using rather weak ammunition at that. People will always react far more strongly (emotionally) against those accused of brutality and racism against the downtrodden than they will against those accused of being not so smart.

  124. Cynic says:

    E.G.,

    Hope I didn’t imply that you adhere to those assertions.
    Just asked an obvious (to me) question which needed to be inserted into a liberal’s assertions.
    Obviously the person has no idea of a tribal culture and the loyalty it exacts. Maybe he should study the Mafia?
    Then again what does he know about Judaism that he collectively assigns ‘tribal’ to a matter of life and death, mere existence and flourishing for a religion as opposed to a culture of debate. He by any chance stuck in the culture of the Oxford Debating Society?
    I know I’m being sarcastic.
    What does Enlightenment mean to him? The culture of Kant, Hegel …..Deconstruction?

    I gave the Solway link because he provides just one more clue to the puzzle of what drives animals.
    I suppose his description of Bloom’s “Endorphin Strategy” might describe that feely-goody sensation of talking the “cliché talk” used so liberally by the “Left”.

    George Will had a good column in the WaPo
    Skip the lecture on Israel’s ‘risks for peace’

    The creation of Israel did not involve the destruction of a Palestinian state, there having been no such state since the Romans arrived. And if the Jewish percentage of the world’s population were today what it was when the Romans ruled Palestine, there would be 200 million Jews. After a uniquely hazardous passage through two millennia without a homeland, there are 13 million Jews.

    Nothing here for any tension in the “tribe” debating its culture. Move along now. Nothing to see.

  125. Ray in Seattle says:

    Incog asks, These are faked images. Are you suggesting Israel should replicate this? Do you think the world will treat Israeli images the way they treat the pals?

    Israel doesn’t need to fake anything. Israel needs to convey the emotional truth of the situation through images and actions that get the point across – not intellectually but emotionally. War, death of innocents, right to defense against aggression, maiming of innocents in the name of religion, survival of one’s children – are some of the most potent (high valence) emotional forces in the human psyche.

    This wellspring of powerful forces needs to be tapped skillfully at the emotional level to change any significant number of minds. No deception is necessary because the Israel’s position in the conflict is the one that conforms to the reality of enlightenment values. Marketing is not necessarily deception; at its best it is the effective communication of emotionally potent truths that can affect behavior.

  126. Ray in Seattle says:

    But I thought that people are emotionally predisposed to disbelieve Israeli images, no?

    Yes, because until now Israel’s enemies have been much more successful using even incompetent emotional mental imagery to convey a lie (the Pal narrative) than Israel has used reason and appeals to Western principles to convey the truth. That’s understandable. You are asking people to accept an important emotional truth. Why bring a pocket knife to a gunfight?

  127. Ray in Seattle says:

    Cynic says, There is no willful ignorance so much as willful maliciousness. They want to see blood and gore.

    Yes, they are in lethal combat with their enemy and their brains are emotionally charged for battle, not intellectual problem-solving. Maliciousness is how you treat an enemy – and you feel emotionally righteous about it because your brain knows that it is either you or your enemy who survives these things.

  128. incognito says:

    e.g.,

    Re the piece on Judt: Can the guy’s “theory” about “noble liberal tradition” explain why Judt saw all other nationalism valid, but only Israel’s obsolete?

    Had Judt been equally dismissive of ALL nationalism — including that of the pals, who purportedly are a nation and want their state — the theory might have been acceptable. But he had not been, so it isn’t.

  129. incognito says:

    Cynic,

    It almost invariably contents itself by blanking out the menace or mugging its weaker partners and cohabitants.

    If I am not mistaken, this has been at the root of scapegoating the jews in crises and/or by social losers all along.

  130. E.G. says:

    One thing that amazed me on 7/7 was the total control of the media by the British authorities. During hours, the same distant, sanitized images were running in loop, and the jurnos had next to nothing to say, next to no one to interview… What was released later on was far from “hot” either.
    All this was interpreted as “stiff upper lip”, British civility, dignity… by the jurnos and pundits that had been deprived from the “juicy” details.
    A picture may be worth a thousand words but, in most cases it has to be a commented one to get that effect.

    The Brits, and they’re not the only ones, know very well that gory images is one thing terrorists are after. It’s part of the terror they seek to induce.
    It does seem that Western jurnos and esp. photographers understand that by publishing images of blood and body-parts they’re actively contributing to terror campaigns, as well as to desecrating Human decency.

    At any rate, this has nothing to do with Alter-Jews.

  131. incognito says:

    e.g.,

    There are moments in which these values conflict, and no side should have a monopoly on claiming whether critical thought or unquestioned loyalty must prevail at any given point.

    Anything that is unquestioned is likely to lead to trouble at some point.

    If all jews chose unquestioned loyalty to leftism over critical thought, they would not survive for long. Indeed, when they refused to question the belief that assimilation and keeping one’s head down would save them, they did not. And if Israel refuses to question the notion of “land for peace” and “the peace process”, it won’t either.

  132. E.G. says:

    incognito,

    (the filters seem hungry at this time; cutting my “digested” reply in 2)

    So you too read Hazony’s “letter”? ;-)

  133. E.G. says:

    Here’s my wild guess: in the beginning, Israel was a national entity with a Socialist regime.
    Ten years after the 6-days war she became less Socialist.

  134. E.G. says:

    It doesn’t work!

  135. incognito says:

    Ray,

    Yes, because until now Israel’s enemies have been much more successful using even incompetent emotional mental imagery to convey a lie (the Pal narrative) than Israel has used reason and appeals to Western principles to convey the truth.

    But if they are PREDISPOSED with such EMOTIONAL INTENSITY that, according to you, is impossible to alter, they will continue to believe the pals and disbelieve Israel, no matter what it does.

    Israel has produced from time to time good emotional images — perhaps not enough — and it has not moved the west.

    Are you now saying that identity beliefs can change just by counter-emotional images? If only it were that easy.

  136. incognito says:

    Cynic,

    There is no willful ignorance so much as willful maliciousness.

    I always considered malice a form of ignorance. At the very least it is difficult, though not impossible, to be malicious without some degree of ignorance. This is a statistical generalization.

  137. incognito says:

    e.g.

    It does seem that Western jurnos and esp. photographers understand that by publishing images of blood and body-parts they’re actively contributing to terror campaigns, as well as to desecrating Human decency.

    Those who are ideological — and there are more and more of those, who lack journo skills — yes. But I would suspect that mostly they operate based on career considerations: what reders want to hear, advertising effects, what editors want them to produce, etc.

    OTOH, without the gore it would be more difficult for the rational public to comprehend the nature of the enemy.

  138. incognito says:

    Ray,

    War, death of innocents, right to defense against aggression, maiming of innocents in the name of religion, survival of one’s children – are some of the most potent (high valence) emotional forces in the human psyche.

    While Israel has not been very good at this, it’s not possible to say that such images have not been produced either by it, or by its supporters. It has very rarely made a dent.

    It’s not just the propaganda of the arabs that has been responsible for this. There are a whole host of variables underlying anti-Israel/anti-semitic stands. Arab propaganda just feeds into them.

  139. incognito says:

    So you too read Hazony’s “letter”? ;-)

    Which?

  140. E.G. says:

    incognito,

    Stenger’s piece is even more problematic than that.

    “Tribal loyalty” has never been a Jewish feature, hardly even in the 12 tribes’ time. And an academic should be able to distinguish between some sense of (national or ethnic) solidarity and the specific meaning of ME tribal loyalty.
    I wish he and his “Enlightened” colleagues (re-)learn about the culture of Jewish debate that does quite more than dismiss a whole argument by a few contemptuous words and/or a stigmatisation of the interlocutor.

    I certainly agree with you on the permanent questioning. It’s both very Jewish and often proved to be a distinctive survival aid.

  141. incognito says:

    Yes, they are in lethal combat with their enemy and their brains are emotionally charged for battle, not intellectual problem-solving.

    This may well mean that societal progress does not go linearly from primitive to advanced, but rather in conflicts between the two, the former has a critical advantage, the latter a disadvantage. Rationality is, viewed in this context, a collective good: it must be had by all to work.

    One good example is Rome and the barbarians.

  142. incognito says:

    Re Hazony: it seems vaguely familiar, but I DK if only because he expresses known thoughts.

    Kuhn’s ideas are problematic, not the least reason of which is the vagueness of the concept of paradigm; he also was referring to the natural sciences, while Hazony is referring to social issues; extension from one to the other is also problematic.

    More to the point: 1st, I have been on record for a long time that there is little Israel can do to change the hostility towards it. One does not need to invoke Kuhn to figure that out.

    2nd, while some anti-nationalism underlies some of the so-called left’s anti-Israel stance, I very much doubt that it’s a significant factor in the average westerner’s stance. There are much more salient factors that can easily explain it, which are hardly pardigmatic in character.

  143. E.G. says:

    Incognito,

    Of course it’s not “paradigm” rather, it’s frame of mind. But it’s nice as an illustration. And I believe it’s useful to show how and why there are 2 mindsets that clash because they’re incompatible: the one that progressed looks down at the “retarded” one not only in contempt but also with guilt.
    Hazony correctly reads the Eastern side of the pond, ex-W. Europe. But it’s true that he also omits other salient factors such as anti-religion.

  144. incognito says:

    e.g.,

    The notion of incompatible frames of mind is, of course, useful. However, I see different 2 frames: one based on evidence, history and reasoning and one based on fear, guilt, denial and dogma.

    As Judt’s selectivity demonstrates, to accept the frames that Hazony uses would require that there be no such selectivity. Plus, I do not see the anti-nationalism as having sifficient saliency.

    Incidentally, it’s the vagueness of the Kuhn’s concept that induces its use in many contexts where it does not really belong.

  145. incognito says:

    He puts it quite well:

    Europe’s Guilty Conscience
    Self-hatred is paralyzing the Continent.
    Pascal Bruckner
    http://www.city-journal.org/2010/20_3_european-conscience.html

    Note that despite the Hazony argument, EU has not produced some homogenous, meaningful entity, but rather an anti-democratic, incompetent bureaucratic layer. And if that is the result in the relatively common culture european states, what’s the chance of this succeeding elsewhere, least of all in the previous dominion of USSR?

    However, he puts too much faith in America, which seems to be inching towards Europe.

  146. incognito says:

    It’s not better in Israel:

    Will the real McCarthy please stand up
    Haaretz’s editors may be the only reputable people in the country who genuinely believe that there is no serious anti-Zionism bias in Israel’s sociology departments.
    By Joel Golovensky
    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/will-the-real-mccarthy-please-stand-up-1.309137

    Higher Learning: McCarthy vs Voltaire in Beersheba
    http://www.jpost.com/Features/FrontLines/Article.aspx?id=185351

  147. incognito says:

    More:

    Israeli Professors Protest Calls for Increased Zionism in Teaching
    By Matthew Kalman
    http://chronicle.com/article/Israeli-Professors-Fight/124078/

    It seems that profs have the freedom to demand boycott of Israel and their own universities, but when the latter is done by non-profs — who quite often produce better quality research than academic leftist crap — it’s McCarthyism.

  148. E.G. says:

    Incognito,

    to accept the frames that Hazony uses would require that there be no such selectivity.

    Indeed. There is at least one generation born into the EU reality, and their parents indoctrinated/indoctrinating about it.

    Bruckner points the common denominator that unifies the Union. There isn’t a common culture nor a common language, although there are quite a few shared values. But one doesn’t feel the same in each country. Our friend Sergio will probably feel well in Italy just as Obsy probably does in the Netherlands, and Michelle in Austria: but neither will feel at home.

  149. E.G. says:

    Incognito,

    Regarding the anti-Zionist bias in Israeli Soc.Sci faculties: it’s about time to expose the charade. Ben-Dror Yemini’s latest blog entry (Maariv/nrg in Hebrew) hits the nail on its head.

  150. incognito says:

    The charade was known for quite a while.

    I just don’t think that exposing it will make a difference. These people are entrenched and have indoctrinated generations of students. It’s a mafia.

    If at least they were competent at research — biased as it is, but at least competent. But they’re all ideologues and would not know research if it bit them on the ass.

  151. Cynic says:

    In Daniel Greenfield’s blog post
    It’s Not the Hasbara, It’s the Reality

    the point he makes describes the almost hysterical insistence in wiping out, out damned spot, the constant reminder to the Jewishness they, the Asa.. Types, wish to flee from.

    Like most Western democracies confronting terrorist groups, it also suffers from allowing a plurality of opinions, which means there will be no shortage of Israeli politicians, activists and reporters who actively work on behalf of the terrorists. On top of that the personality of the average Israeli has much in common with that of the average New Yorker, while the terrorists have no shortage of Marxist academics educated abroad who know exactly how to talk to European diplomats and reporters.

    But none of this is really the point, because Hasbara is not really the point. Israel is not suffering from a communications problem. It isn’t losing the debate because it can’t get around to explaining that terrorism is wrong. It’s losing the debate because the media and Western governments don’t agree that terrorism is wrong. They don’t agree that Israelis shouldn’t be under fire or that terrorists shouldn’t be rewarded for killing people. The terrorists aren’t scoring points because Israel isn’t communicating its message. The terrorists are scoring points because their core audience in Europe and in some cases America, agrees with their message.

  152. Ray in Seattle says:

    @155, His last sentence:

    The only way to win at PR against a pro-terrorist left and its Islamist allies, is to take the war off the table by winning it. Because an indefinite crisis will bring enemies out of the woodwork, and give bigots plenty to feed on. That’s the cold hard reality of it. The only way Israel can win the PR war, is by defeating the terrorists. Trying to win the PR war in order to be able to fight the terrorists, has been a common mistake in the Israeli paradigm. Dispensing with that paradigm as quickly as possible and winning the fight, is the only way to get the monkey of hate off Israel’s back.

    Yes, despite my last comment. It’s probably too late for any non-violent mental imagery to have the needed effect. The only mental image that will change the world’s perceptions (emotional beliefs) regarding Israel’s legitimacy and right to defend itself – is Israel’s total commitment victory in its defense.

    I wish Netanyahu would take advantage of the current situation and declare that in the interest of self preservation Israel can no longer afford to hold back on their defensive actions and worry about what a world that doesn’t care about Israel’s survival – or is hostile to the idea, thinks.

    He should recommend that all non-combatants get as far away as possible from any Hisb’allah or Hamas military or any other units or military emplacements belonging to any of Israel’s enemies – because the next time Israel is attacked those units and stockpiles and all buildings in the vicinity are likely to be completely destroyed. Further, that no leaflets or telephone warnings will be issued to civilians in the area before-hand. And then the IDF should be prepared wage the next war until the job is completely done.

    Israel should have dropped several 500 lb bombs on the positions from which the LAF fired and killed the Lt Colonel at the Leb-border tree-trimming operation. There should be nothing left of the Lebanon border in the vicinity from where the shots were fired.

    When the world complains tell them that Israel withdrew from Lebanon with the assurance that the UN was there to prevent future attacks on Israel. The UN knew that an attack was likely if not imminent that day. If they didn’t they screwed up because that was their job. When the UN does its job Israel won’t have to.

    As long as Israel pulls its punches the world will see Israel as weaker than its enemies and will see Iran and its proxy armies surrounding Israel as the strong horse to bet on or at least not unduly anger it – and will not support the weak horse. The West is not immune or better than honor-shame responses. We just express it in different ways and through different channels – that to us seem civilized. It’s not a West/East thing. It’s a human nature thing.

  153. incognito says:

    The terrorists are scoring points because their core audience in Europe and in some cases America, agrees with their message.

    As I always argued, there is little Israel can do to change minds. The world has decided, for various reasons, that Israel is an inconvenient nation and that things will be better without it.

    The world deserves to be without Israel and with the terrorists. That’ll teach them.

  154. incognito says:

    Ray,

    Yes, despite the serious difficulties that this will produce.

    But, of course, since Oslo the Israeli elite has grown accustomed with concessions and appeasement of the west, fat and corrupt (look at all the scandals; could the choice of a army chief be the way it was 30, 20 years ago, part. given the dangers Israel is in?). It is largely incompetent and obsessed with its own place in the power structure. IOW, it has become just like a western elite and it brings Israel down much worse and faster than the western elite brooght down the west.

  155. incognito says:

    Somehow relevant:

    Sayings of Chairman Jim (Mosque edition)
    http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2010/08/027051.php

  156. Ray in Seattle says:

    Frank Luntz is an expert in framing. Framing is the practice of skillfully using words and phrases (that are charged with the necessary emotional imagery) to enter the listener’s mind and change their mental landscape without them realizing it – opening their mind to the beliefs of the speaker.

    In this sense skillful words (that invoke emotional mental imagery) can be helpful when you want to persuade someone in a non-violent society. But that only works before the mind enters the conflict zone and takes a side that is committed to the destruction of the other using whatever level of verbal or physical violence is required. The mind does this not with reason but by the release of a cocktail of neural transmitters against which reason has no effect.

    At this point the sides are well drawn in the AI war and at least Israel’s enemies have that commitment. IMO it’s time for Israel to stop talking and start fighting. Until now Israel has done everything possible to prevent Israeli’s from entering that zone and allowing those neural juices of total conflict to flow.

    Otherwise, if Israel doesn’t care enough about it’s own survival to defend itself with whatever force is necessary, and then some for good measure. Why should others even care?

  157. Ray in Seattle says:

    Yes, despite the serious difficulties that this will produce.

    They may be serious as you say. Or, when the world sees the destruction that Israel can cause in its justified defense – the emotional imagery could lead them to ask, “What else can Israel do?”.

    Remember, that’s what the world has reflexively said in response to the powerfully emotional imagery of Palestinians blowing themselves up in TA pizza parlors.

    I think Israel needs to tell the world that Israel may be facing its destruction but it is not going to die before many millions of its enemies are dead. If the world doesn’t want to see millions of dead Islamists then the world can make it unnecessary for Israel to have to defend itself – as it first should have in 1947.

  158. Ray in Seattle says:

    The corruption in Israel’s gov and their military is the direct result of 60 years of failure (with a couple of notable exceptions) to demand and exercise their full right of self-defense – hoping to show the world how civil Israelis can be in their self defense so that Israelis will be liked and so the world will take Israel’s side against her Islamist enemies. We can see how successful that’s been.

    I believe this has led to emotional despair and internal dissent and corruption in the defense establishment as Israel’s legitimacy is questioned even by her stanchest allies. Such unprincipled behavior (the unwillingness to sufficiently defend its people against attack) exacts a price among a principled people. This corruption and internal dissent is the price Israel is paying. Israel needs to start killing its enemies in large numbers when justified and providing the usual penalties for treason against its own that all democratic nations provide during wartime.

  159. Ray in Seattle says:

    Obama is weak before even two years of his administration. That’s because he has no principles and is paying the price. We do know he’ll do what’s necessary to protect himself politically. Israel has done what he has asked. If Israel suffers another attack from Hizb’allah or Hamas and responds very violently it’s likely this will be blamed on Obama for making it likely by supporting Goldstone, Erdogan, et al. (Netanyahu does need to set the stage as I suggested in my previous post by stating that Israel is no longer Mr. Nice Guy when it comes to defending its people.)

    With large numbers of liberals in the US still supporting Israel Obama already knows that he will have to take Israel’s side against its enemies when the next attack on Israel comes – or he he will not be a two term president. I hope Netanyahu understands this and is ready to transform Israel’s image in the world by showing that Israel is ready to defend the lives of its people by doing whatever is necessary to succeed completely and despite whatever the rest of world thinks about it.

    The way things are going with Iran and its proxies Israel may not get another chance to do this.

  160. Ray in Seattle says:

    This article about Galant is encouraging,

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3941582,00.html

    But the photo of him paddling a kayak in the surf shows a flabby body that is not fit. Notice the sagging flesh under his right bicep. From what I’ve read he is mentally fit. I hope his leadership on the political side is equally so.

  161. incognito says:

    Frank Luntz is an expert in framing.

    Marketing is not the same as attitudes towards Israel.

    Let’s see him change minds on Israel and then we’ll talk.

  162. Ray in Seattle says:

    Marketing is not the same as attitudes towards Israel.

    Yes, but the same neural processes are going on whether you change your attitudes about Israel or your favorite beer. You are replacing one set of identity beliefs with another. Your views on the AI conflict and your favorite beer are both parts of their identity – views that you will not change without some emotional force being applied. How much force depends on how strongly one holds each belief.

    Let’s see him change minds on Israel and then we’ll talk.

    Right. I think framing tactics might work for a few uninformed observers but most people by now have pretty entrenched beliefs on the conflict, have chosen sides and would be immune to all but highly emotional events. The US armed forces for example allows some journos to embed in units in the field. That’s the kind of emotional exposure that changes minds. I don’t think many of them came back cheering for the Taliban.

  163. incognito says:

    Yes, but the same neural processes are going on whether you change your attitudes about Israel or your favorite beer.

    Really?

    I think framing tactics might work for a few uninformed observers but most people by now have pretty entrenched beliefs on the conflict

    I would suspect most people just want the conflict to go away and the only way they think it will is if Israel would just give up.

  164. Ray in Seattle says:

    Really?

    Sure. Some people could care less about the AI conflict but could get in quite a row over the qualities of their favorite beer. And that could change as they mature, switching in importance and/or direction. From what I’ve read I think it’s unlikely that some place along that transition the brain takes the decision away from one kind of neural activity and assigns to different circuits where decisions are computed in a different way.

    As I see it, beliefs are functionally like instincts. They both provide emotional forces to guide behavior, although beliefs are the result of learning rather than genetics. So beliefs can change according to conditions in an animal’s environment, what the animal learns. Even the simplest animals seem to be able to do it and the process seems functionally similar in all animals.

  165. E.G. says:

    Back to the subject: Alter-Jews.
    Here’s a notorious one, coupling denial of the Jewish peoplehood feature with demopathy:

    You can’t be a Jewish Muslim

    Note: IMO, one can be Jewish and non-Zionist without qualifying as alter-Jew.

  166. E.G. says:

    Sadly, Trotsky’s Jewish followers, still so militantly active in vilifying the Zionist project, have learned nothing at all from this cautionary tale.

    Robert Wistrich: A cautionary tale

  167. The points been made before, but I think it needs to be said again – these people aren’t Jews.

    Their parents were Jews.

    But Neve Gordon, Tony Greenstein etc, have converted to anti-imperialism. They are no more Jewish than Theobald was still Jewish after he converted to Christianity.

    By continuing to talk about these people as if they were Jews, we’re playing their game. They trade on their nominal Jewish identity to score propaganda points. Over at Harry’s Place, they call them “as-a-Jews,” because of their habit of prefacing denunciations of Israelis with the phrase, “As a Jew…”

    I think the word we want to describe such people is “ex-Jews” or “Jews who have converted to a far left ideology.”

  168. Eliyahu says:

    Most Trotskyists today, like most of the rest of the “Left”, are a body of manipulated opinion, a pack of Pavlovian dogs who respond to signals as they were trained. Most Trots today serve powerful Judeophobic interests. Otherwise, why would they overlook the blatant exploitation of labor in oil rich Arab sheikdoms??

  169. E.G. says:

    Eliyahu,

    The problem is less about Trots being manipulated than about them manipulating too many others.

    Besides, the point I wanted to make by signaling this article is about the near-sightedness of alter-Jews. Would you count Lev Davidovitch as one?

  170. I want to note that the vehemence of ex-Jews who have converted to the far left gives the lie to the claim that Israel-hatred isn’t antisemitic.

    Ex-Jews feel a special need to prove their allegiance to the anti-Israel cause because they feel that their Jewish background singles them out and makes them suspect in the eyes of their peers.

  171. Ray in Seattle says:

    I would like to mention my sadness at the passing of a regular contributor to these pages. Michelle Shatzman brought us her unique perspective as a citizen of France and professional mathematician. Her words and thoughts here will be missed.

  172. E.G. says:

    May Michelle’s memory be blessed.
    יהי זכרה ברוך

    I very much appreciated and was also very fond of her.

  173. Cynic says:

    Am terribly sorry to hear this.
    It was always a pleasure read her comments and analysis.
    I will miss her interaction here.

  174. incognito says:

    May Michelle’s memory be blessed.

    Indeed.

    I replied to the message that notified me of her passing away by offering my condolensces to her children.

  175. Cynic says:

    I am terribly sorry to learn of Michelle’s passing.
    I commented earlier but it seems that the filters have withheld it.

  176. incognito says:

    The ultimate alter-jew:

    DNA tests reveal ‘Hitler was descended from the Jews and Africans he hated’
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1305414/Hitler-descended-Jews-Africans-hated-claim-DNA-tests-relatives.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

    I wish he found this out while alive and then impose the Nurnberg laws on himself.

  177. E.G. says:

    Michelle was spared this:

    Agressé parce qu’il n’a pas respecté le ramadan

    Moslems aggress first a man who was eating at a restaurant in Lyon during Ramadan, then a Jewish woman shopping for food in a supermarket in Toulouse. In the latter case, the guard did not bother to intervene while the “youths” were beating the woman, explaining that he respects the Ramadan and was just about to go off for his fast-breaking.

  178. incognito says:

    Get used to this: the new reality of Europe. It’ll get worse.

  179. Cynic says:

    Getting used to it?
    We are already used to it from the other side of the wire:
    Ramadan special: Hezbollah, Sunnis clash in Beirut, at least 3 killed

    (Ynet) Clashes broke out in Beirut Tuesday evening between the Shiite organizations Hezbollah and Amal and the Sunni militia al-Ahbash. Lebanese media reported that at least three people were killed, one of them is believed to be a senior Hezbollah official.

    Fighting started Tuesday night in the Burj Abu Haidar neighborhood in downtown Beirut, and included RPGs and automatic weapons. According to the report, a Chevrolet containing four Hezbollah operatives entered the mixed Sunni-Shiite neighborhood in the Lebanese capital, and the passengers opened fire. The situation quickly escalated, and the Sunnis fired back at the vehicle.

    ……….

    Lebanese media reported that a mosque affiliated with the Sunni al-Ahbash movement was torched hours after the clashes broke.

    Wait until the Shia enter the European market to sell their version and clash with the Saudi one.

  180. Eliyahu says:

    Cynic, ironically both Hizbullah and al-Ahbash are described in various reports as pro-Syrian. Further, I read a different version of what happened, of how it started. I read that a quarrel started over a parking place between a Hizbullah honcho and a Sunni, a member of al-Ahbash, as I recall. Then the situation escalated into rpgs and machine guns, as situations tend to do in Lebanon.

    You raise an interesting point. What would happen if the Sunni-Shi`a dispute overflowed into Europe?? How would the rule of the Mahdi and the ayatollahs be reconciled with the caliphate?

  181. Cynic says:

    Eliyahu,

    Given what’s going on with Iran setting up a base with the latest technological offerings in Eritrea at the mouth to the Red Sea, its garnering of supporters like Turkey, the possibility of taking over Iraq “religiously” it seems a foregone conclusion that they are going to clash with the Saudis and that part of the clash could possibly be on European soil to wrest away Saudi cultural gains there as they strive for regional dominance.
    Why not?
    With the power they will project they will want to increase their “missionary” work. Their Dawa has a different flavour to the Wahabbi’s taste.
    It won’t be enough to lord it only over the kafirs, but also all the other Islamic sects.

    Given their hubris it seems a strong possibility that they won’t just sit back when they have the bomb.

  182. incognito says:

    Wait until the Shia enter the European market to sell their version and clash with the Saudi one.

    What takes them so long, dammit? I want them to start asap. Let’s see how democratic and proportional the euros are in that situation.

    In Lee Smith’s THE STRONG HORSE he argues that the arabs don’t fight with the west, but rather fight among themselves on the back of the west.

  183. incognito says:

    How would the rule of the Mahdi and the ayatollahs be reconciled with the caliphate?

    It won’t matter, they’ll kill each other and their hosts in mass much before they settle the issue. I can’t wait.

    I mean, if they resort to RPG’s and grenades for parking, can you imagine what they’ll do to settle religious arguments?

  184. incognito says:

    part of the clash could possibly be on European soil to wrest away Saudi cultural gains there as they strive for regional dominance.

    Lee Smith has argued this for quite a while.

    It won’t be enough to lord it only over the kafirs, but also all the other Islamic sects.

    See my #190. That’s about the only positive thing I see in the world today. Then the similarity with Rome will be complete, a repetition of the barbarians at the gates.

  185. Eliyahu says:

    they won’t just sit back when they have the bomb

    This was obvious years ago. But Washington didn’t care, not under George Bush II nor under Obambi. Recall that under Bush II Iran was given several last chances. I believe that the first “last chance” was given in late 2003, almost seven years ago. Add that to the fact that the USA under the Carter/bzrzezzinksi foreign policy helped Khomeini to take over Iran and you have to ask whether Washington actually wants Iran to have the Bomb.

    http://ziontruth.blogspot.com/2010/01/western-great-powers-give-iran-one-last.html

    What is also curious is that the “Left,” which back in the Sixties used to spend a lot of time talking and demonstrating against the Bomb and against nuclear proliferation, now seems to favor Iran getting the Bomb, as Iran is now considered “anti-imperialist” or “opposed to US hegemony.” I remember that in those days the British CND [campaign for nuclear disarmament?] used to demonstrate against all the atomic installations in Britain. Sometimes vandalizing property as some now do against stores selling Israeli products. Where does the Brit “Left” stand now? Are they still agin nuke proliferation? Is an Iranian bomb or a Paki bomb a Good Bomb contrasted with the bad Indian or Israeli bombs?

  186. incognito says:

    Re Rome, Spengler had apparently similar thoughts:

    A 1600th Anniversary Question: Why Did Rome Fall?
    David P. Goldman
    http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/spengler/2010/08/25/a-1600th-anniversary-question-why-did-rome-fall/

    But he is glad christianity survived, while I am not.
    Once it became a state religion it did what every other religion does. So much for the morality it supposedly is based on.

    Israel should beware the demographic religious to secular ratio, the large haredi sector which neither works nor serves in the army, its electoral system and its govt supported religion. Therein lie dangers.

  187. incognito says:

    Eliyahu,

    Evolution has shown us that those who are dumb or ignorant or weak do not survive. And the state of EU and the US validate this.

    If the euros behave this way now:

    Germany Learns to Tolerate Radical Islamic Intolerance
    Further tolerance mongering.
    BY Benjamin Weinthal
    http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/germany-learns-tolerate-radical-islamic-intolerance

    Can you imagine how they will behave under internal threats?

    Bye bye civilization.

  188. incognito says:

    And here’s Lee Smith himself on the nuke issue:

    Prolific
    If Saudi Arabia gets the bomb, the rest of the Middle East is likely to go nuclear
    By Lee Smith
    http://www.tabletmag.com/news-and-politics/43491/prolific/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=prolific

  189. Cynic says:

    Here’s another post by Sultan Knish which is worth the read
    The Media’s Anti-Semitic Hate Machine

    The media has not gotten better, it has gotten better at packaging its bigotry. It has learned that using Jewish pundits allows it to serve as a platform for ideas on the same level of discourse as Streicher, without being vulnerable to accusations of bigotry. After all Greenwald, Klein and Blumenthal are Jewish names, aren’t they? It’s not a new idea. The Soviet Union routinely used press conferences by Jewish writers and artists to legitimize the persecution of Jews. These were the “Good Jews”, loyal Communists and devoted to the Soviet Union, who were here to condemn the Judaism, Zionism and Cosmopolitanism of the “Bad Jews”. The “Good Jews” worked at magazines like Krokodil, drawing Soviet versions of Der Sturmer’s cartoons of greedy murdering Jews wearing the Star of David. The “Bad Jews” died. Tens of thousands in Holodomor. Hundreds of thousands in the Gulag. Millions of more might have died, had Stalin’s plan for a Soviet Holocaust come to fruition. But the Soviet Union had, what Nazi Germany did not have, but the modern day left wing hate machine does, men and women with Jewish last names, up in front to defend its bigotry.
    …………
    What the Nazis knew is that weak people are drawn to identities that give them strength. So many timid people looking for a way to express their anger. A chance to be wolves rather than sheep. A chance to hurt someone, rather than be hurt.
    ……………..
    The media’s Anti-Semitic hate machine does for the far left, what Der Sturmer once did for the far right. It makes their hatred and bigotry mainstream. It feeds the wolves. It teaches people to be Nazis. To find strength in an age-old hatred for age-old reasons. To howl at the Jew, while the Muslim slits their throat.

  190. E.G. says:

    incognito #194,

    Christianity: not sure whether Spengler is means it or tongue-in-cheek. At any rate, it’s formulated as a side remark.

    Haredim: There is a small trend of their greater participation in Israeli life. Even doing army service.

  191. E.G. says:

    addendum: Rome was not built in a day ;-) and neither Israel…

  192. incognito says:

    Rome was not built in a day ;-) and neither Israel…

    Rome was huge and a superpower drawing ample resources from its colonies. Israel is small and has limited resources.

    Christianity: not sure whether Spengler is means it or tongue-in-cheek. At any rate, it’s formulated as a side remark.

    Given that he writes for a christian website, I doubt he was not serious. He regularly praises the pope. Religion is his blind spot since he became religious.

    Haredim: There is a small trend of their greater participation in Israeli life. Even doing army service.

    With emphasis on small. The reality is that demographically their weight increases relative to the secular and they are becoming increasingly aggressive.

  193. E.G. says:

    incognito,

    I’d put the emphasis on “trend”. It’s a start.

  194. Cynic says:

    incognito,

    As you read a lot of Lee Smith’s articles please put the following into perspective cause it surely, in my experience, detracts from his punditry.

    Lee Smith in Tablet: Is ‘Sharia’ An Abstract Concept?

    Gingrich, wrote Andrew McCarthy on National Review Online, “has crystallized the essence of our national-security challenge. Henceforth, there should be no place to hide for any candidate, including any incumbent. The question will be: Where do you stand on sharia?”

    By making sharia the focus of his fulminations, Gingrich has taken an almost hopelessly abstract concept and weighted it with an existential presence that it has never had in 1,400 years of Muslim history. Sharia is not a concrete legal code; it is the idealized notion of God’s law. Because there is no way to approach what is ostensibly divine except through human agency, sharia as such does not exist except as interpreted by human beings over the long course of Islamic history. The word “sharia” necessarily means many things to many people.

    So the intimidation and incitement in its verses are hopelessly abstract in conception?
    sharia as such does not exist except as interpreted deconstruction to the nth degree?
    Does coherent observation not exist in punditry?

  195. E.G. says:

    Brian from Toronto,

    Could you please clarify: in your opinion, is being a Zionist a necessary qualifier for Jewishness? Is such an opinion anchored in Judaic thought and/or practice?

  196. incognito says:

    I’d put the emphasis on “trend”. It’s a start.

    Ah, faith!

  197. incognito says:

    Cynic,

    I see what bothered you.

    However, Smith is 100% correct in that Sharia means different things to different people, because there is no islamic Vatican or pope and each imam, sheik or self-appointed scholar interprets it whichever way but lose. They all disagree with each other and use their interpretations to compete for popularity, power and control.

    Where I think he has failed in the article is to realize that most of the interpretations that count — those of the radicals — are bad for the west and, therefore, Sharia is a critical test of candidates.

    Westerners who focus on the ME can be at best good at knowing and understanding the culture, but it is rare that they have sufficient comprehension of the religion, which is a monster to figure out. Smith is not different.

  198. incognito says:

    Important piece by Hazony on the issue of Kuhn paradigms and the applicability to social theory, exactly what I questioned here:

    [MUST READ!!!!!!!!!!!]
    More on Kuhn, Kant and the Nation-State
    http://via.readerimpact.com/v/1/0c867f285de81bb6bccbde8442f0c7316b7210346658c26c

    While I agree that there is something to it when it comes to anti-Israel stance of the west, I seriously doubt that it is as importat as he sees it.

    A much more powerful factor is the classical conflict between freedom and order. Elites, including the academia, despite their syntactic commitment to the former, have an instinct for the latter. That’s how they end up, like Munkler, with an imperial framework, despite his own criticism of imperial nazism. They want harmony which, because it is an utopia and impossible to achieve in practice, has to be somehow enforced against people’s will. This is what the EU ended up as and what any kind of imperial government, including a world govt, will end up as.

    Utopias have never been achieved which is why they continue to drive some desperate for it to the point of dumping freedoms.

    The west cannot achieve order with the arabs, so they try to force Israel into it. Which is a somewhat different perspective than Hazony’s.

  199. incognito says:

    Another view on Hazony which has some parallels to mine:

    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/a-shifting-paradigm-pendulum-1.310467

  200. incognito says:

    Unger’s conclusion:

    The paradigm pendulum is shifting backward more rapidly than Hazony and others expected, and this bodes well for Israel.

    Yes, but it may well take more time, because the islamists want an utopia of their own in the west and the west has not yet collapsed enough from its own utopia.

    But utopias always collapse after impossing huge costs until another one comes along. Whether Israel can withstand it it’s a tossup.

  201. incognito says:

    Could you please clarify: in your opinion, is being a Zionist a necessary qualifier for Jewishness? Is such an opinion anchored in Judaic thought and/or practice?

    That depends on the definition of a jew: if it is religious (like you imply), then I guess the Temple and therefore Israel and therefore Zionism is part of it.

    If it is racial — being born to a jewish woman — then it is not (although that poses the problem of how the 1st jewish woman was defined).

    Since apparently the decision who is a jew has been left pending…

  202. incognito says:

    BTW, uncle tom jews is not a bad term.

  203. E.G. says:

    Incognito,

    Why not let Brian clarify/specify?

    Faith, maybe. Hope may do well too. And even credence.
    Yes, it’s not totally baseless though it’s not exactly rational.

    How about post-Jews?

    Shabbat Shalom! :-)

  204. incognito says:

    Why not let Brian clarify/specify?

    Who stops him?

    Faith, maybe. Hope may do well too. And even credence.

    Hope is falsifiable by reality, faith is not.

    Yes, it’s not totally baseless though it’s not exactly rational.

    Finessing, aren’t you?

    How about post-Jews?

    Also works, but uncle tom is more expressive of the social dimension.

    Shabbat Shalom! :-)

    To you too.

  205. E.G. says:

    Hope is falsifiable by reality, faith is not.
    Point taken.

    Could you please clarify that “uncle Tom” social dimension?

    “Post” as in post-modern, post-Zionist etc. is a bit less (local)culturally-bound.

  206. E.G. says:

    Ungar (link in #208) makes quite a few interesting and necessary points.
    IMO, the situation is different between Europe/EU and the US and, in the former, the more national orientation is only beginning to form (elites, committed to the post-national “paradigm” but nonetheless operating within a national one, would not admit it; at most, they’d concede that the European Utopia is not yet clearly enough defined…or understood). Hard to share either optimism or pessimism.

  207. incognito says:

    Could you please clarify that “uncle Tom” social dimension?

    Uncle Tom blacks were those subservient/satisfying whites. Similarly, uncle Tom jews are subservient/satisfying gentiles/their social/ideological class.

    Post-jews does not have this flavor.

  208. incognito says:

    the situation is different between Europe/EU and the US

    The US is striving to be like Europe when there are currents in EU striving for nationalism. It’s not clear whether these trends will succeed and where they will lead.

    The elites hope that national companies taking over all-EU segments of the economy will advance their undemocratic objectives. Whether nationalist forces can overcome the entrenched EU bureaucracy and these monopolies to revert to national sovereignty is a tossup.

    It is easier for a leftist elite in the US to make americans dependent on the govt in a crisis that cannot go to waste and once that happens, it’s over.

  209. incognito says:

    Apropos Spengler’s perspective: how religion drives intelligent people astray.

    Reason to pause
    The Closing of the Muslim Mind: How Intellectual Suicide Created the Modern Islamist Crisis by Robert R Reilly
    Reviewed by Spengler
    http://atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/LH24Ak01.html

  210. incognito says:

    Cynic,

    A correct and excellent answer to Lee Smith’s piece on sharia:

    [MUST READ]
    Is Newt Gingrich Wrong to Talk About Sharia?
    by Raymond Ibrahim
    http://www.meforum.org/2730/is-newt-gingrich-wrong-to-talk-about-sharia

  211. incognito says:

    Cynic,

    And here is empirical evidence for Ibrahim’s argument about the weakness of Smith’s argument:

    [MUST WATCH]
    Is Hamas a terrorist organization?
    http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2010/08/027105.php

  212. E.G. says:

    incognito,

    I do not find (from unsystematic observations of a questionably representative sample) the subservience dimension either as strongly characteristic or as a very common one. Being or wanting to be fashionable in order to gain a higher status is similar but not the same: there is a difference between conformity/compliance and conversion, and while some alter/post-Jews are characterized by the first, others are by the second.

  213. Eliyahu says:

    Hazony usually has something interesting to say. However, I strongly disagree with his attribution to Kant’s universalism of the reason for current EU Israelophobia. He leaves out Kant’s own strong Judeophobia. So Kant wasn’t really so universal. And the Euros who read him ought to be aware of that. Hazony also exonerates the EU and its intellectual believers of crass Judeophobia.

    I think that it is more appropriate and convincing to see today’s Euro Judeophobia as a more hypocritical, mutated form of traditional Judeophobia, than that before WW2. Further, some Euro intellos need to absolve themselves and Europe of guilt for the Holocaust by finding the Jews guilty of crimes equal or worse. That is, they need for their own psychological absolution to find the Jews/Zionists guilty of persecuting poor “palestinians”, of treating Arabs the way that the Nazis treated Jews. Catherine Ney was just one example. Moreover, in order to continue Judeophobia post-Holocaust, Israel must be guilty. Now, since Judeophobia/Israelophobia is state policy in various Western countries, the UK and others [I am ready to argue this], Israel must be seen as persecuting those Arabs now cleverly renamed “palestinians.” For both these reasons, the Palestinian Arabs are viewed as somehow separate from other Arabs which allows deployment of the notion that these Arabs are a collective Jesus, with all the many implications and connotations that the traditional, historical Christian view of Jewish guilt towards the innocent, innocuous figure of Jesus entails.

    I also think Hazony missed an important aspect of how anti-Zionism got established in Israeli academic life in his book. He ascribes it all to Buber and Buber’s followers. He totally forgets about the roles of the Communists in the Israeli universities and of Western funding for various Israeli academic projects and personalities.

  214. incognito says:

    Eliyahu,

    If you read my comment, I argued that universalism is not a very salient factor for anti-zionism and there are more mundane factors at work. Anti-semitism is certainly one of them.

    It is quite possible that universalism is used as a rationalization for what is essentially anti-semitism.

  215. E.G. says:

    Hazony does leave out the confluence of European old habit of singling out the Jews and the elevation of the post-nation idea into dominating ideology. If Jews are seen as Europeans, they’re a special kind of Europeans. They’re viewed as late-comers to the “continent of Enlightenment” who have benefited from the interaction with the grand “lights” (i.e., philosophers), which is both historically and intellectually wrong.

    Curiously, while Voltaire saw the Jews as Arabs, Kant called the German Jews, “the Palestinians who live among us”.

    Such “foreign implant” views seem to be at the root (!) of the conception of the “colonialist” view of Jews returning to their homeland, though the article from which I quote above doesn’t make this argument. But it does show how different trends of European thought/philosophy have distanced themselves from Judaism, and the European “natives” from the Jewish aliens.
    It expands on what Hazony states as a BTW comment (last paragraph, 2nd point), and shows that the multi-form anti-Semitism played and is still playing a more central role in current vilification of the Jewish state.

  216. E.G. says:

    Come to think of it, Hazony also leaves out the ironic return of ideas: Jews have been accused of being “cosmopolitans”, of transcending national borders and loyalties, of proceeding within and through inter-national networks. But that was in pre-modern and modern times. Now, in post-modern times, when being cosmopolitan is the right thing, defending a local haven from which cosmopolitan views and acts can (and are) freely cast, is verboten.

  217. Eliyahu says:

    #224 universalism is used as a rationalization for what is essentially anti-semitism.

    Incog, I agree that universalism is often hypocritical. In this vein, here it is a veneer over the old Judeophobia. Our modern and post-modern world has a lot of old wine in new “modern” bottles.

    EG, yes, when nationalism was fashionable, Jews were derided as cosmopolitans. When cosmopolitanism is not only fashionable but the official creed of an aspiring empire, the EU, now the Jews are too nationalistic, too particularistic. And that goes for perceptions of Jews in a racial sense, and of their racial/historical/geographic origin. Around 1900 Jews were seen in the West, not only Germany but Britain, as aliens, as Orientals, Asiatics. For instance, the British novel Trilby by George DuMaurier depicts the swarthy Polish Jew as evil, alien, non-Nordic, etc. See DuMaurier’s illustration for the book.

    http://ziontruth.blogspot.com/2008/07/new-anti-zionism-and-old.html

    DuMaurier worked as an illustrator for Punch. That humor magazine used to ridicule one of the Sassoon family who excelled at the sports that the British regarded highly, hunting, riding, etc. He was also a friend of the Prince of Wales. But Sassoon was swarthy, Oriental, Jewish and thus undeserving to be rich, skilled in British sports, and the Prince’s friend, according to Punch.

    Starting in the 1960s, Israelis were depicted, especially in “leftist” “revolutionary” publications as white Euro colonialists in a “non-white” country. At one time, the Euro Judeophobes were telling the Jews to get out of Europe, to go back to the East, to the Orient. Now, abracadabra, the Jews are superwhite Western colonialists, etc. This was said at a time [the 1960s] when half or more of the Israelis were Jews whose families came from Arab and other Middle Eastern countries. Actually, the “leftist revolutionary” rags did not call the Jews “white” explicitly but insinuated it by writing that Zionism had brought the Jews to seek refuge in a “non-white” country. So by insinuation the Jews were “white,” a quality denied them by earlier Euro Judeophobes. Further, the Arabs liked to consider themselves white and indeed the Nazis welcomed Arab nationalists to Germany to help in the Nazi war effort. Most notable among these Arabs was Haj Amin el-Husseini, the British-appointed mufti of Jerusalem. The Germans may have seen Husseini as “Aryan” since he had blue eyes and reddish hair.
    Anyway, we see how “ultra-left” groups helped promote insidious Judeophobic propaganda.

  218. Cynic says:

    Eliyahu,

    You should find this bit of black humour interesting as John R. Miller prognosticates:
    How the U.S. Solved the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict

    SBU (Sensitive but Unclassified) February 20, 2016

    Dear Madam Secretary:

    You have asked for my recommendation on how the United States should respond to the requests for admission into this country of hundreds of thousands of Israeli refugees. You have also asked for my review and assessment of the success of our Middle East peace efforts. Although I write as your Counselor, I believe my views are shared by the Near Eastern Affairs Bureau.

    The current situation may be disturbing, but we have made great progress on the Israeli-Palestinian issue since 2010. That was the year that you and the president devised the alternating-warm-and-cool-receptions strategy for visiting Israeli dignitaries, ….

    The only thing the author forgets to include is the reaction of the “minority” Muslim community, whose constitutional rights have to be respected, to the Offensive ‘settlement’ of Jews on “American” soil.

  219. Eliyahu says:

    re #219

    Reilly as reviewed by Spengler doesn’t go far enough. He points out that al-Ghazzali’s anti-rationalism held back science in Muslim lands. But he doesn’t mention that Al-Ghazzali’s great rival Ibn Rushd [Averroes] was executed and his books were burnt.

    Be that as it may, I know of no Muslim contributions to civilization since the 13th century, except those of Ibn Khaldun in the 14th.

    After the 13th century it was downhill.

    Yet, the Institut du Monde Arabe in Paris, which was set up on some of the most expensive real estate in Paris, so that the Arabs could narcissistically bask in their own “glory,” held

    A previous exhibition at the Institute, very much in the Arab aggrandizement and self-flattery mode, was the Golden Age of Arab Science [L'Age d'Or des Sciences Arabes] in 2005.

    http://ziontruth.blogspot.com/2007/09/arab-nationalist-megalomania-endorsed.html

    Why did that Golden Age end, never to return??
    Here is part of the reason as explained by an “apologist” for the Arabs.
    http://ziontruth.blogspot.com/2005/12/why-arab-intellectual-decadence-lack.html

  220. incognito says:

    I do not find (from unsystematic observations of a questionably representative sample) the subservience dimension either as strongly characteristic or as a very common one.

    Perhaps subservience is not the right term — I tried to come up with a better one but the muse did not visit (ah, well, that’s what happens when the brain is preoccupied by existential issues).

    Jews have been accused of being “cosmopolitans”, of transcending national borders and loyalties, of proceeding within and through inter-national networks.

    My dentist — otherwise a very nice man, just did that the other day. But I would not consider him a smart person and he is extremely ignorant. Very rich and very Obama. Typical.

    Which is precisely why jews care about what non-jews think about them, hence the desire to be accepted.

    So it not as much subservience but perhaps trying to avoid criticism or social excommunication. Of course, those who deem thhemselves morally superior want it to be socially recognize but, in fact, it is itself a source of criticism.

  221. incognito says:

    They’re viewed as late-comers to the “continent of Enlightenment” who have benefited from the interaction with the grand “lights” (i.e., philosophers), which is both historically and intellectually wrong.

    But I thought that the enlightenment is rooted in the judeo-christian tradition. And given that christianity is a hijacked religion — Jesus had nothing to do with what Paul’s (an alter-jew if there ever was one) seizure invented, bastardizing a lot of morality in the process, then euros were enlightened by the jews, no? Perhaps THAT’s what’s bothering them and drive them to reverse causality?

    Now, in post-modern times, when being cosmopolitan is the right thing, defending a local haven from which cosmopolitan views and acts can (and are) freely cast, is verboten.

    See what I mean?

  222. incognito says:

    A previous exhibition at the Institute, very much in the Arab aggrandizement and self-flattery mode, was the Golden Age of Arab Science [L’Age d’Or des Sciences Arabes] in 2005.

    What do you expect those without any achievements and with a very intense complex of inferiority will do? They will inflate the importance of whatever little they have and overclaim it. Pretty classic.

    By the way, it is not concidence that such an institute exists in France. After all, the French are similar with respect to their modern history and contributions, even though their historical achievements cannot be touched by the islamic world.

  223. incognito says:

    [MUST READ]
    Who’re You Calling a ‘Bigot’?
    By Brendan Goldman
    http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/08/whore_you_calling_a_bigot.html

  224. incognito says:

    This sort of thing explains the jews’ instinct to “not be different” and multiculturalism.

  225. Cynic says:

    incognito,

    .. with a very intense complex of inferiority will do?

    They don’t have an inferiority complex but consider themselves to be superior. They are superior so it is incomprehensible that kafirs and dhimmis outperform them.

  226. E.G. says:

    But I thought that the enlightenment is rooted in the judeo-christian tradition….then euros were enlightened by the jews, no?

    The processes of distancing (quite some mental/rhetoric gymnastics) are well described in the paper I linked to in #225. Quite a few more “juicy” quotes in there too.

  227. E.G. says:

    re-subservience, absent muse ;-)

    IMO, the more relevant phenomenon is dissidence.
    On the intelligentsia part, there is an incentive for originality – which always means breaking some rules/norms. If it works (i.e., the original, dissenting person gains something, like wider notoriety or higher status), s/he’s got both more means and opportunities to assemble followers who either conform to their original platform or convert – and some of those may wish to outdo the original dissenter, and dissent even farther.

    Crossing, blurring and erasing frontiers seems to me a more common denominator for alter/post-Jews than social acceptance and desirability. The latter are widespread among us all, humans. Alter/post-Jews have some knack with unicity, excellence, creativity, chosedness/exemplarity… and purity. I’m not sure they want to be liked. There is some halo about being a spearhead, a pride in leading a non-consensual movement, and satisfaction derived from disturbing the existing order, moving the frontier or crossing it…
    Maybe they’re more after respect or reliance.

    At any rate, dissenters’ objective is to replace the existing order by another one – of their own making.

    p.s. I’m having Judith Butler in mind while writing this comment.

    p.p.s. Conforming consists in adopting a set of behaviours that are compatible/desirable within the group one adheres to.
    Converting implies not only adopting the external “signs” (behaviours) but also the internal modification: commitment to a new set of beliefs (like in a religious or secular religion).

  228. incognito says:

    They don’t have an inferiority complex but consider themselves to be superior. They are superior so it is incomprehensible that kafirs and dhimmis outperform them.

    It is the Quran and Islam which indoctrinates them with the notion that they are superior, while at the same time guarantees inferiority.

    It logically follows that if the kafir succeeds and they fail, the carpet is pulled from under their feet — because that means the Quran and thus Allah is wrong. Since this cannot be allowed to be the case, it must be that theymore are superior, but because they have nothing to show for it, they emphasize that past period.

    The more they emphasize their superiority the more it exposes their inferiority.

  229. incognito says:

    The processes of distancing (quite some mental/rhetoric gymnastics) are well described in the paper I linked to in #225. Quite a few more “juicy” quotes in there too.

    That’s exactly what I argued without reading the source, I was just being tongue-in-cheek with respect to the causality direction.

    IMO, the more relevant phenomenon is dissidence.

    Applies to leftists and academics, not to jews per-se.
    And, in fact, most of the stance by those is conformism, not dissidence. Indeed, it’s the implications of the latter that they want to avoid.
    Think Beinart, Judt, etc.

    Crossing, blurring and erasing frontiers seems to me a more common denominator for alter/post-Jews than social acceptance and desirability.

    I would respond by paraphrasing Ray, but here it applies: the same brain structure is responsible for both and it’s terribly difficult even for them to separate between the two. They SAY the former but my guess is that it’s the latter that drives them. And, of course, that’s the last thing they want to accept or admit.

    p.p.s. Conforming consists in adopting a set of behaviours that are compatible/desirable within the group one adheres to.
    Converting implies not only adopting the external “signs” (behaviours) but also the internal modification: commitment to a new set of beliefs (like in a religious or secular religion).

    Weeeelllll, in theory. In practice things are much more muddled. That’s psychology.

  230. incognito says:

    An apropos piece:

    [MUST READ]
    Radical Islam’s Fellow-Travellers
    NICK COHEN
    http://standpointmag.co.uk/node/3287/full

  231. incognito says:

    To those who delude themselves that the US has changed its ways about Israel:

    Martin Kramer: You-couldn’t-make-it-up department: “Washington is funding an ad campaign in Israel that features billboards of Palestinian officials asking: ‘We are partners—what about you?’ The campaign launched Sunday includes the faces of senior PA officials Saeb Erekat, Jibril Rajoub, Yasser Abed Rabo and Riad Malki.… USAID invested close to $250,000 toward the creation of the billboards.” More: http://bit.ly/bKhG9M
    Washington funds Palestinian campaign | UPI
    http://www.upi.com

    The aim of the campaign is to persuade Israelis that peace partners on the Palestinian side truly exist, and calls to support a two-state solution, the report said. The US government was approached to fund the campaign by the Geneva Initiative founders.

  232. E.G. says:

    Applies to leftists and academics, not to jews per-se.

    Yes, dissidence is the general zeitgeist. I pointed the Jewish specificities further on.

    the same brain structure is responsible for both

    Gee, how novel. Did it take you long to come to this groundbreaking insight?

    and it’s terribly difficult even for them to separate between the two. They SAY the former but my guess is that it’s the latter that drives them. And, of course, that’s the last thing they want to accept or admit.

    It’s me who analyses what they say/confess and what I make of it. I think that this distinction is the point where the Jewish specificity separates alter/post-Jews from the rest of the “Lefties and academics”. IOW, theirs is a need to distinguish (in both senses) themselves, rather than to “sink” into some comfortable homogenous and (worst of all?) anonymous mass. Their voice has a distinctive built-in note (Jewish – see: as-a-Jew…) and yet another distinction brought by their personal contribution to the Alter Jewish message.
    Now, if you want to contradict or challenge my assessment – go ahead, I don’t claim to have come up with the ultimate truth.

    I specified the theoretical differences between conformity and conversion in order to clarify my statement for those unfamiliar with these notions. “Professional deformation” in Michelle’s terms.
    If I plead guilty, will you judge me as indulgently as you should?

  233. E.G. says:

    incognito,

    Regarding dissidence/conformity: the question is which frame of reference one adheres to, and which one is the left-behind one.
    I think we agree about alter/post-Jews’ adherence to the PoMo frame, and that dissidence is about the “conventional” Jewish one. The latter is very (too) much “of reference” to be considered as discarded. As if it were haunting them.
    Would they be experiencing the same phenomenon that so many Christians have? That is, the inexorable reference to something (Jewish roots, thought) they ardently wish to detach themselves from?

  234. incognito says:

    Gee, how novel. Did it take you long to come to this groundbreaking insight?

    I quoted Ray — how noveel could that be? You seemed to refer to mental separations that were not sufficiently sensitive to this.

    It’s me who analyses what they say/confess and what I make of it.

    I guess this is novel, huh?

    I think that this distinction is the point where the Jewish specificity separates alter/post-Jews from the rest of the “Lefties and academics”.

    I suspect that lefties/academics want to conform to the dogma in their dissidence, while the alter-jews’ dissidence is from the jews/zionists to be accepted by the lefties/academics/gentiles.

  235. incognito says:

    It does seem we’re in some agreement, but that’s only because we make sense. :)

  236. Cynic says:

    incognito,

    The campaign launched Sunday includes the faces of senior PA officials Saeb Erekat, Jibril Rajoub, Yasser Abed Rabo and Riad Malki.…

    baaahoowaah! The smallest liars around for their campaign they found?

    If the majority of Israelis believe this stuff then they deserve what they get.

  237. Eliyahu says:

    cynic, I’m sure that you don’t believe that more than a small fraction of Israelis could take this stupidity seriously. I don’t think that the USAID was improving the US image among Israelis by funding this garbage.

  238. Cynic says:

    Eliyahu,

    I was just being sarcastic.
    USAID has been involved before in PLO propaganda.
    Do you remember this?
    Your Taxes for PLO Propaganda

    Ever wonder who is behind the well-oiled Palestinian propaganda operation that reaches out to every media outlet and every college campus in sight? Who pays for Palestinian efforts to lobby Congress to overlook its campaign of homicide bombing? Who finances glowing histories of the PLO’s role in stabilizing the Middle East? Who funds studies about how Yasser Arafat can better manipulate public opinion in the United States? Look no further than your own tax return.

    This week, in response to a question from our news agency, the U.S. government has finally acknowledged that the U.S. Aid For International Development (USAID) indeed funds the Palestine Academic Society For the Study of Academic Affairs (PASSIA), the PLO lobby group in Jerusalem which trains PLO media professionals in the art of transforming the image of the Arab-Israeli struggle into an Arab David against an Israeli Goliath.

    USAID reports directly to the White House, which makes that allocation of particular significance to U.S. taxpayers. This funding arrangement was made possible back in 1997, under an agreement reached between the PLO and the man who was then the U.S. Consul in Jerusalem, Mr. Edward Abington. Immediately upon leaving his position as consul in Jerusalem in 1997, an employee of the U.S. State Department, Abington was hired by the PLO to be their paid lobbyist and official foreign agent in Washington, D.C., where Abington continues to lobby for the PLO under the framework of Bannerman and Associates. There’s nothing like paying back a friend who helps you out.

    From 1997-2004, USAID has given (or is scheduled to give) the PASSIA lobby a total of $1.7 million. According to the report sent by USAID, which appears at: http://www.usaid.gov/wbg/partners.htm, USAID funds are used in the following way:

    “PASSIA conducts two activities under this agreement.

    Nothing much has changed.

  239. incognito says:

    If the majority of Israelis believe this stuff then they deserve what they get.

    The point is not that israelis will believe that, but that the americans believe they are and therefore invest money in it.

    Apparently, Obama thinks that they are as stupid as americans and therefore can be fooled as easily as they.

    In any case, what reliance can you put in the US now that it has come to them funding the pal propaganda? Would you buy a used car from them?

  240. incognito says:

    When an american administration is as stupid as to believe that pal propaganda will be effective, they’ll believe anything and the arabs will play them like a violin, which they do.

  241. incognito says:

    Nothing much has changed.

    Not exactly. If they have done this shit in the past they should have learned hw stupid it is. But they have not.

    This means that they are incapable of learning from experience, which reinforces the reality that the west has completely collapsed and Israel is on its own.

    If Israel continues to appease the west it’s a gonner.

  242. incognito says:

    Re american stupidity and collapse:

    [MUST READ]
    Japan-Style Stagnation? You Should Be So Lucky
    David P. Goldman
    http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/spengler/2010/08/30/cross-posted-from-asia-times-you-should-be-so-lucky/

    See what I mean?

  243. Cynic says:

    incognito,

    Until the stuff being shown on Palestinian TV, printed in their papers and said on their radio broadcasts becomes common knowledge in the US the great majority of Americans will continue believing in the propaganda given the cognitive egocentrism that has been inculcated through the PC (politically correct) approach to animal life on planet earth.

  244. incognito says:

    e.g.,

    Re alter-jews and the liberal utopia which does not exist:

    Tony Judt and Israel
    by Benjamin Kerstein
    http://newledger.com/2010/08/tony-judt-and-israel/

    It is hard for me to believe that such violence of tone could be generated by universalism illusion. So there must have been more to Judt’s anti-Israel position than that.

    Given that his expertise was on Europe it could be precisely the gap between his paradigm on europe and reality that made him look for a scapegoat. And we know who people turn to for that.

  245. incognito says:

    And more:

    Obama uses tax dollars to rebuild Mosques?
    http://littlegreenfootballs.com/page/223437_Obama_uses_tax_dollars_to_rebu

  246. incognito says:

    THE WEAK HORSE
    Steyn on the World
    http://www.steynonline.com/content/view/3463/

  247. Eliyahu says:

    yes, Incog, this story is pretty gross, helping MB orgs to apply for US govt grants, apparently.

    But don’t forget that Prez George Bush II invited some Islamists to come see me at the White House. I think one of them was Sami al-Arian. George II had a soft spot for Saudis, for instance. Even Michael Moore said so until, apparently, it became politically incorrect to acknowledge that any Muslim Arab had more than 57 cents to his name. It is necessary to see them all as poor folk exploited by them Zionist Jews. Obama is a continuation of Bush –but worse.

    By the way, do you guys know that Prez George B I, Dubya’s Daddy, was in Saudi Arabia in the summer of 1982 during the First Lebanon War?? The WSJ reported circa 1985 that Good Ole George met yasser a. there at the funeral of the King of the Kingdom of SA. Yasser was taking a break from the war to pay his respects to one of his moneybags. George I told yasser that he should keep on fighting the Israelis and not accept a cease-fire with them. A Good Ole Peaceable Down Home Boy, that George I.

  248. [...] Excerpt below from Not ‘self’-hating Jews, but Jewish scourges of Jews [...]

  249. incognito says:

    Obama is a continuation of Bush –but worse.

    Much worse.

    Bush may have had some sympathy for saudis, but he was not an anti-semite. Alibama is, courtesy of Jeremiah Wright, Khalidi, Ayers and others.

    A Good Ole Peaceable Down Home Boy, that George I.

    No US president was a jew lover. They tolerated and helped Israel for their own interests: Cold War, keeping arabs in line, electoral advantage.

    Now the US is finished so everybody screws it and, as is usually the case, the jews are scapegoated.

  250. incognito says:

    But hey, let the americans fund islam in the US — they’ll get what they deserve.

  251. E.G. says:

    incognito,

    If they were only wishing to conform, they’d be token Jews.
    But they wish to stand out, vis-a-vis the adopted frame of reference, and with regard to the innate one.

    This attitude is very Jewish — but only in non-Jewish and alter/post-Jewish eyes, who misinterpret the need/drive for excellence.

  252. incognito says:

    But they wish to stand out, vis-a-vis the adopted frame of reference, and with regard to the innate one.

    They want to outconform. That’s what those who want to conform but are concerned that just conforming is not enough.

    This attitude is very Jewish

    No, for example religious converts try to outconform too.
    Be more catholic than the pope, as the saying goes.

  253. E.G. says:

    incognito,

    The zealotry (non specific) is one thing. The exceptional status/standing sought is another (mistakenly attributed to some Jewish spirit).

    O/T – I told you so:
    http://tv.themarker.com/index.jhtml?ElementId=/ibo/repositories/stories/m1_2000/tmc100831_958473.xml&from=haaretz

  254. My preliminary point is:

    Zionism is essentially a national liberation struggle and movement. It is this first and foremost. It does have religious aspects: Some make that the whole but I do not think so, because it is at bottom a struggle of man to gain the wherewithall for life on earth. Religion does enter but religion also entered the struggle of the Celts to survive in Ireland from about 2000 years ago.

    The difference of Zionism to other national movements is the intense hostility to the Jews, in other words antisemitism. In most cases I would say that this antisemitism is what has created these Jewish antisemites to whom you refer. There are gradations, so there is the Jewish Homeland hater Gilad Atzmon, who proposes “one democratic state”, thus a liar, because that means the elimination of the Jewish State and Jewish Homeland. Atzmon is fairly easy to deal with because you cannot miss him. But I have experience of other Jews who keep their heads down and do not defend Israel when it is LIED against. Those types are harder to deal with and to fight against.

    The situation is explosive. Look at the list of people at the conference which EG attended. That is one extensive list, is it not.

    I have no idea what they talked about. Will it be published?

    But I doubt if they provided a way forward, as indeed this very extensive discussion has not provided any way forward either.

    No matter how well meaning you are, and the effort put in, you have not provided a way forward.

    I am sad about this, because I respect the people here, but difficult things must be said face to face.

    As I see it the issue revolved down to the following:

    1. Are you going to accept the continued existence of antisemitism in human society and therefore find some way for Jews to defend themselves against that antisemitism. Just that.

    OR

    2. Are you going to do all of that above in (1), work in a realistic fashion in the real world in which we live, thus creating ways to defend Jews, which includes defending at all costs Israel, but do all of that in the context of having a strategy of creating “a new man on earth” thus to end antisemitism and all other forms of cruelty to man and animal.

    It is in the latter part of the second (2) that I feel you fail; rather you do not even reach to there in order to fail! Arguably even worse!

    We need to have a perspective for the future: a new man, a new form of human being.

    We need to have that perspective.

    Now I will begin to tell you how this can be done and how the socialist revolution can be carried out.

    But the first step in the socialist revolution is actually for Netanyahu to step up to the plate and to either pulverize totally the Iranian nuclear bomb, or to delay it in such a way that there is time, and Israel will continue to exist as an entity in this human affair, having been given time by necessary Netanyahu and IDF action, then for Jews to proceed to use this time in the great human drama.

    Think of Iran…think also of Nazi Germany in 1933.

    If Israel is destroyed then that is surely a big victory for the forces of Fascism in the world.

    The socialist revolutionary forces in the world must surely oppose that.

    It is actually the test today of who is a real socialist revolutionary and it will become the test more and more as events unfold.

    By the way these issues were all very much latent, some even explicit, in the famous debate between Leon Trotsky and Herzl at the Sixth Zionist Congress.

    You cannot get much more fundamental than that!

    Here, not mentioned once! Tells its own story re the preconceptions of people in this threat (prejudices may be a better but more bitter word)

    I wish to be constructive not bitter, because jews again are in great peril.

  255. Cynic says:

    E.G.,

    But they wish to stand out, vis-a-vis the adopted frame of reference, and with regard to the innate one.
    This attitude is very Jewish

    “Look mummy, look how good I am”. “Ah, my son the doctor”.
    :-)

    But have you noticed that when they, these Alter/Post/As-a/ex Jews, are displaying their conformism with their gentile “overlords” how they transmogrify into Uriah Heap, but on encountering their own kind they become arrogantly assertive?

  256. Cynic says:

    Be more catholic than the pope, as the saying goes.

    Is to prove one’s sincerity, loyalty and integrity with regard to the cause.
    And then they cause envy amongst the “natives” and push up the hate index even more.

  257. Cynic says:

    Eliyahu,

    George the Elder gave Reagan very bad advice in 1983 and along with Baker and Weinberger was responsible for Iran getting their real foothold in Lebanon.
    It wasn’t bad enough Carter getting the extremists into power in Iran, so the next lot, in their ignorance and personal money making schemes, had to “help” with the creation of a satellite state controlled by the Iranian Foreign Legion.

  258. Cynic says:

    Eliyahu,

    No doubt you’ve read this by Avi Trengo. What he says and the way he says it just shows how stupid the USAID propaganda is.
    Obama, we’re not suckers

    Op-ed: Obama may mortgage America’s future, but we won’t let him do the same to Israel

  259. E.G. says:

    Cynic,

    Yes, it’s stereotypically Jewish. And, like all stereotypes, not profoundly.

    But have you noticed….. how they transmogrify into Uriah Heap,
    Sort of. I have no relevant example(s) popping into my working memory right now. Could you spare one for poor-me, Sir?

    but on encountering their own kind they become arrogantly assertive?
    Oh YES.

    Do you think this double attitude is why they appear so tormented?

  260. E.G. says:

    oops,

    And, like all stereotypes, not profoundly anchored in Judaism.

  261. incognito says:

    But have you noticed that when they, these Alter/Post/As-a/ex Jews, are displaying their conformism with their gentile “overlords” how they transmogrify into Uriah Heap, but on encountering their own kind they become arrogantly assertive?

    Which is what induces me to believe there is at least some desire to conform/be accepted as a “good jew”.

    Is to prove one’s sincerity, loyalty and integrity with regard to the cause.
    And then they cause envy amongst the “natives” and push up the hate index even more.

    That was my drift.

  262. incognito says:

    [MUST READ]
    Washington’s Israeli allies
    http://www.carolineglick.com/e/2010/08/washingtons-israeli-allies.php

    [MUST READ]
    Blame game on the horizon
    Abbas is no Arafat; once this becomes apparent to all, the finger-pointing-fest will begin.
    By Moshe Arens
    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/blame-game-on-the-horizon-1.311184

  263. Cynic says:

    E.G.,

    I cannot give examples you would recognize cause they were people I unfortunately ran across in my life.

    And, like all stereotypes, not profoundly anchored in Judaism.

    Well their “Jewishness” amounted to chicken soup for a bout of flu and a liking for chopped herring or liver.
    But griben on fresh bread and a schnaps was discarded in favour of crackling.
    They had to make the point.
    The counter point was made by those witnessing the behaviour in asking: “So what does a pig know about lokshen?”

  264. E.G. says:

    Cynic,

    All Uriah Heap-like attitudes I can think of is some court-Jews. And that’s not very relevant. Alter/post-Jews are a different story. Indeed, pigs thinking they know something about lokshen (or lockshen?).

    And (attn. incognito too), I argue there is more than just a desire to conform (more precisely, to convert), not that this desire is absent. As-a-Jew they want to eat the cake and have it in its entirety: retain their misconception of Jewish identity while shattering deconstructing it.

  265. incognito says:

    e.g.,

    I tend to assume more mundane reasons.

  266. Cynic says:

    E.G.,

    about lokshen (or lockshen?).

    Multiculti or Diversity? :-)
    If it looks like lo***n, Tastes like lo***n then who gives a fig how it is spelled.
    One must take into account the diverse forms of Yiddish and also the myriad of accents.

    There were a couple of people I came across who demeaned their roots using that very noun in the adjectival sense and then when the high holy hove in sight did they genuflect.
    One of them literally went out of his way to mock the cooking I found so tasty. As a kid I was completely confused at the time and nagged my mother to try and discover what was so much better in taste.

  267. Cynic says:

    I should have added that As-a-Jew they demean the kugel in favour of the cake.

  268. E.G. says:

    incognito,

    Yes, I’m still hopeful, despite the few Ayatollas/Ulemas et Co. They’re far from being the sole authority.
    BTW, Peretz is wrong about Goldstein’s attack: it did not occur 60 years ago.

  269. E.G. says:

    Cynic,

    As-a-Jew they demean the kugel in favour of the cake.

    Sure. And Lokshen in favor of Yakisoba. But they still want to bite into it while having it all intact. Must be this recycling thing on their minds…

    At any rate, in conformity (!) with incognito’s “mundane reasons” assumption, whatever the motivation, I think it’s important to note that there is a problematic relation in associating (in several possible ways) two distinct frames of reference.

  270. Cynic says:

    From that link to smarty Marty
    And when a “saint” says “May God smite the Palestinians with the plague” that saint is sanctioning all sorts of evil against what to be sure are also many many innocent people.

    Now maybe that’s what he thinks and would be incited to do so he projects his thinking on to those Israelis. Just so cognitively egocentric.

    Those Israelis described here
    Still, the former Sephardic chief rabbi of Israel is an influential man to the people of the street. Some even think of him as a sainted person.
    are not very likely to assume a “godlike” stature to impose the Saint’s wish.
    If anything they would be praying that their God fulfill the Saint’s wishes and leave it at that.
    And as for those who don’t see Ovadia as a saint, they will just ignore him.
    The media of course come Sunday morning will make the most of Ovadia’s post Sabbath sayings as they have done for the past decade and it has become almost ritual.

  271. incognito says:

    If they were only wishing to conform, they’d be token Jews.

    They ARE token jews. They are the good jews. They wish to be accepted by some reference group other than jews.
    (I never said it’s JUST the wish to conform, but that’s a large part).

    Yes, I’m still hopeful, despite the few Ayatollas/Ulemas et Co. They’re far from being the sole authority.

    They don’t have to be.
    Are you sure it’s hope and not faith? Is there any kind of evidence that would kill the hope?

  272. incognito says:

    Now maybe that’s what he thinks and would be incited to do so he projects his thinking on to those Israelis. Just so cognitively egocentric.

    To be honest, as an atheist I don’t much care about the curse. But I do care about the flogging and all the rest of the crap of religion. And I find it inconsistent to deplore the christian and muslim radicals but not the jewish ones. I don’t compare them in terms of how murderous they are, but aside from that, yuckh.

  273. incognito says:

    Israel braces for difficult month
    Political calendar filled with snags
    By Eli Lake
    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/aug/30/israel-braces-for-difficult-month/

    For some reason the current “leadership” in Israel does not inspire confidence. It has the kiss-ass instinct and that is lethal in this context.

  274. E.G. says:

    Is there any kind of evidence that would kill the hope?

    -Statistics about a significant %tage ( more than 50) of Israelis adhering to the most of the Ayatolla’s prescriptions.
    -the Ayatolla’s party winning the elections (getting more than 49 mandates).
    -Massive, violent riots by followers claiming a theocracy or similar.

  275. incognito says:

    Rather a high threshold.

    Things can be real ugly much before that.

  276. E.G. says:

    incognito,

    Your question was about killing hope, not reducing it. And yes, the threshold is high.

  277. E.G. says:

    And I don’t think we’re likely to witness an Iranian-like revolution in Israel.

  278. incognito says:

    And I don’t think we’re likely to witness an Iranian-like revolution in Israel.

    They are doing much damage without one. And I don’t mean to western attitudes about Israel.

  279. E.G. says:

    Just stumbled upon Taranto’s Oikophobia, and his link to Roger Scruton who coined the term.

    Xenophobia is fear of the alien; oikophobia is fear of the familiar: “the disposition, in any conflict, to side with ‘them’ against ‘us’, and the felt need to denigrate the customs, culture and institutions that are identifiably ‘ours.’ “

    Sounds familiar? Oik!
    Don’t “misunderestimate” it!

  280. incognito says:

    The Trend:
    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/new-army-program-aims-to-recruit-haredi-women-to-idf-1.311828

    That the army wants them and makes an effort to recruit them means only that they do not eagerly want to go in; or that the recruitment will succeed. Or, more importantly, that I trust them to do in the army what’s required of them. In fact, the more they get it, the more they are likely to mess it up. I just don’t trust strong-faithers and never will.

  281. incognito says:

    Sounds familiar? Oik!

    It just describes what we already know and gives it a formal name.

  282. E.G. says:

    incognito,

    Well, here’s for bad faith. All yours.
    And lack of knowledge. You haven’t met the present, younger Haredi generation (neither have I, extensively, but that’s more than you). Their pragmatism can be surprising, as can be the “secular” skills they adopt/develop to handle “secular” tech., and quite well too.

    At any rate, my point was about the beginning of a trend. Haaretz mentions a few converging interests between the 2 relevant parties. Of course it can’t (afford to) mention Zionism as a motivator, but this also comes into the equation.

    Oik – You are misunerestimating!
    As if defining a phenomenon (both in the positive – what it is, and in the negative – what it’s not) were unimportant. Well, Sir, it is. And you know it.
    Your oikophobia is showing!

  283. incognito says:

    Well, here’s for bad faith. All yours.

    It’s not bad faith, it’s no faith at all.

    You’ll learn. Reality will teach you.

  284. Cynic says:

    E.G., incognito, Eliyahu, Ray

    I’ve just been reading this lecture by Olavo de Carvalho, a Brazilian historian
    The Structure of the Revolutionary Mind
    and was wondering how this might apply to the Alter/As-a/Theobald-Jew?

    The perfect society exists in order to bring about that ideal of justice, of love for one’s neighbor, etc., which is found in the Bible. Nonetheless, it will not be produced through these means, but rather through war, violence, cruelty, dictatorship, etc. Thus mankind becomes divided into two types of people. The inhabitants of the future, who will live in a world of justice, love, charity, etc., and will usually practice those virtues, because they will be disseminated in the social environment. Everyone will be good. And people who, in the present day, living within the still corrupted and malign world, are fighting in order to create the future world. These people are revolutionaries. Now, the people of the future are passive beneficiaries of the advent of a world that they did not help to create. This future will be the revolutionaries’ work. Revolutionaries from all generations have always considered themselves better than other human beings. As Che Guevara said: “We are the first rank of mankind.”
    …………
    The revolutionary moral inversion reaches its purest expression, I suppose, in a statement by Che Guevara. When asked why so many people had to be killed in order that a better society could be created, Che Guevara answered: “We have to make this sacrifice.” (As though he was being sacrificed.) This means that he was the sacrificial victim and not his victims. The man who kills becomes the victim. This structure, this argument, this twist of language has been universally adopted in the revolutionary discourse. The violence of revolution is always attributed to those who resist revolution and not to those who practice the violence.
    ………
    A logical analysis that consists of unveiling hidden premises. As soon as hidden premises begin to appear, you realize that they are absurd in themselves, and for this very reason, they can be the subject not of a psychological analysis but of a psychopathological one. And this analysis has been made previously by a man who had no idea of this revolutionary movement’s unity. This man was the Jewish-French psychiatrist Joseph Gabel. Joseph Gabel in his book “La Fausse Conscience” (False Consciousness), which is a classic, had already realized the perfect structural identity between the revolutionary discourse, mass movement discourse, and schizophrenic delusion. He said that from a logical standpoint they are exactly the same thing.

    This is a long read interesting read and I need to re-read it to try and remember the points he makes.

  285. incognito says:

    cynic,

    Interesting, but I see nothing new in it.

    It applies to the alter-jews to the extent that they are utopians — the way to bliss is the elimination of Israel and the establishment of a pal state/one-state solution.

    Are they revolutionary in the Che Guevara sense? Probably some of them could be if they became desperate enough.

  286. incognito says:

    Nice piece on the alter-jew Beinart:

    PRESS MAN: Pundit (Declined)
    Andrew Ferguson
    http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/press-man–pundit–declined–15526

    Note that Ferguson makes him a “careerist”. It’s consistent with my argument that motivations are more often than not more mundane than ideology or convictions. Particularly for “journos”.

  287. incognito says:

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/139506

    A collapsed America with grandiose illusions of power is the most dangerous thing for the free world and I am glad I am old enough to not have to live too much time with the consequences.

  288. Richard Landes says:

    to cynic 2 #301,
    excellent. thanks for the lead.

    nb: masochistic omnipotence syndrome is a messianic complex: the more we turn against ourselves, the more we “powerful” we become in creating the millennial kingdom. hence the incredible power of marx’s few lines about life in the communist millennium on generations of people ready to believe almost anything if only they cd believe they were contributing to a world without evil.
    r

  289. Eliyahu says:

    re #301

    first, as to Che, you can find parallels for both Che and Fidel Castro to Fascist thinking, particularly Spanish Falangista thinking and slogans [and a slogan can summarize a thought, an argument, or a theory - even though a slogan may be the enemy of thinking]. I once pointed out here how Castro’s slogan: Patria o Muerte!! has its parallel in the notorious chant of Franco’s general Millan Astray at the univ of Salamanca before Unamuno: Espanha — Muerte!! Espanha — Muerte. Maybe blood and death are a part of Spanish and Hispanoparlante culture [bullfighting, Bodas de Sangre]. All the same, those parallels are there.

    second, I disagree with Olavo’s logic on one crucial point, which may seem too obviously wrong on his part to bother about. Olavo writes:

    “When asked why so many people had to be killed in order that a better society could be created, Che Guevara answered: “We have to make this sacrifice.””

    This means that Che was quite willing to sacrifice others. “We” are making a sacrifice, maybe the way ancient Tyrians sacrificed first born sons. “We” [Mom and Dad] are sacrificing Junior.

    Che was indispensable to the Revolution of course and could not be sacrificed. Not that he wasn’t ready. So I don’t see that it logically follows that Che saw himself as being a sacrificial victim, except insofar as he was in danger eventually when the CIA decided to get rid of him while he was in Bolivia.

    Olavo might argue here that Che felt that he was being sacrificed in that he had to sacrifice his own morality for the sake of the cause. If that is how Che felt or thought, then we could point out that Che’s sacrifice in that case was not quite as hard to bear as was the sacrifice made by those millions of eggs that Stalin broke for his omelet, the millions sent to labor camps, etc. Let’s not forget the millions of Jews that Stalin helped deliver into the Germans’ hands through his collaboration with Hitler in the Nazi-Soviet Pact.

  290. incognito says:

    You mean this?

    If it happens, the US has only itself to blame for it.

  291. incognito says:

    eliyahu,

    Haven’t you seen my argument more than once that the left-right continuum is a circle and the extremes meet?
    Totalitarianism comes from both the left and the right.
    They’re both utopian.

  292. Eliyahu says:

    Incog, the first problem is that policy is not necessarily decided by an ideology. Liberals can talk liberally and act fascistically.

    second, if the “left-right continuum” is really a circle in which extremes meet, then consider that WW 2 started through diplomacy, especially the diplomacy of Stalin, Hitler and —- chamberlain. Was chamberlain too stupid to know what hitler represented?? But let’s look at this situation by the “left-right” paradigm. Stalin the leftist, a “leftist” extremist to be sure, teamed up in 1939 with hitler, a “right-wing” extremist [although Adolf did call himself a socialist, as did Stalin]. Now Hitler was greatly helped in getting his war started by “conservative” “middle of the road” “moderate” chamberlain, who was after all a democratically elected prime minister. And the British parliament is supposed to be the Mother of Parliaments, the oldest one still existing, blah blah. Sorry, I forgot that hitler too was democratically and constitutionally appointed chancellor [prime minister] in January 1933 [although did not have a majority then. He got his majority in a referendum later on, as I recall].

    So the problem is not just with extremes, the extremes that meet. You have wisely made the continuum into a circle but you didn’t go far enough. If it’s a circle, how can there be a “left” or a “right”?? So one sector or segment of the circle is “extreme” [but circles don't have extremes]? OK, so one sector of the circle is Bad. No doubt. But why not get rid of a stupid paradigm that doesn’t explain what goes on in reality?

    Again, you recall that you said that the left-right paradigm doesn’t apply to Arab/Muslim lands. Indeed. So the paradigm is no longer helpful, if it ever was, in a world where Muslims and Muslim states have become so important. Is a Muslim fundamentalist preacher just like a Christian fundamentalist preacher?? Is an Elmer Gantry type revivalist preacher who gets people to speak in tongues the same as a Muslim preacher who gets people to go out and blow themselves up in a group of mothers and children eating ice cream??

  293. Cynic says:

    Is it all coming together or is it just something in the air because on Solomonia there is a link to CiFWatch
    Prophetic article in NYT Magazine from 1971, on the emerging anti-Semitism of the left

    where in one of the passages from the NYT article there is
    … suggests that adherence to radical causes has been a way of escaping one’s Jewishness.

    which seems to jibe with Carvalho’s citing of Joseph Gabel

    This man was the Jewish-French psychiatrist Joseph Gabel. Joseph Gabel in his book “La Fausse Conscience” (False Consciousness), which is a classic, had already realized the perfect structural identity between the revolutionary discourse, mass movement discourse, and schizophrenic delusion. He said that from a logical standpoint they are exactly the same thing.

  294. incognito says:

    What’s wrong ith this?

    New talks haunted by old wounds
    Until a mutual understanding of Israeli and Palestinian traumas is reached, peace will be elusive
    By James Carroll

  295. incognito says:

    As I said, beware of a collapsed America:

    The Desperation Summit
    by Benjamin Kerstein
    http://newledger.com/2010/09/the-desperation-summit/

  296. Eliyahu says:

    Incog, this James Carroll is a slippery fellow. There are some facts in his article but also a lot of bs, a lot of lies, or, if you like, falsehoods due to ignorance. For example, Husseini did not try to imbue the palestinian Arabs with a “palestinian” identity. He was a pan-Arabist. The lies go on and on.

    I am not only suspicious of Arab politicians but of Western journalists and “academics.” Carroll seems to fit into both classes.

  297. incognito says:

    Eliyahu,

    Which is why I asked the question.

  298. incognito says:

    Hizballah strikes US troops in Iraq, clears way for anti-Israel Eastern Front
    http://www.debka.com/article/9015

  299. incognito says:

    [MUST READ]
    The New Old World Order
    by Victor Davis Hanson
    http://victorhanson.com/articles/hanson090610.html

  300. Eliyahu says:

    Incog, re the “left-right political spectrum” notion, I suggest –rather than a circle, as you do– a three-dimensional political/ideological universe. The circle has no extremes, by definition, although a line drawn through its center could divide it into “left” and “right.” But this is still only two-dimensional. I suggest the three-dimensional view.

  301. Cynic says:

    To those who celebrate Judaism in all its resplendent colours I wish you a Happy, Peaceful and Sweet New Year.

    May the majority of American Jews get some seichal because if this article is anything to go by they are going to vote Obama in again
    The Palin Puzzle

    DESPITE THE HUGE MEDIA HYPE hatched by the new conservative organizations that are eagerly igniting controversy and debate within the American Jewish community, longtime observers of American Jews and politics remain skeptical of their impact. “We certainly know that there’s no one-to-one correlation between the amount of noise by a particular candidate and the amount of support for that particular candidate by Jews,” observes Sarna.

    Berlinerblau also sees the ECI as a fleeting “fly-by-night” group. “They won’t last. I can’t see groups like this, evangelicals and the Tea Party, persevering.”

    “I wonder if the Tea Party is really a movement,” contends Louis A. Ruprecht Jr., who holds the William M. Suttles Chair of Religious Studies at Georgia State University in Atlanta.

    “It doesn’t have a clear leadership. I’m not sure if this goes beyond the perennial resentment of paying taxes. In any case, it’s a misappropriation of history,” citing the taxation without representation fight in colonial America. “These guys got representation; they just don’t like it. There’s always been a rebellious streak in American history and they always lose.”

    He also wonders what role religion plays in the Tea Party movement and in Palin’s perspective.

    None so blind as those who will not see.

  302. incognito says:

    Eliyahu,

    A 3-dimensional concept does not fit, it cannot explain the practically identical nature of the extremes.

    A line drawn from the center to the point on the circumference where the extremes meet marks the merging point. The closer you get to that point on the circumference the more the similarity between the two parts on each side of that point.

  303. incognito says:

    May the majority of American Jews get some seichal because if this article is anything to go by they are going to vote Obama in again

    I’m pretty sure they will.

    America has a serious leadership problem, just like Israel. And so does Europe. It is both a cause and consequence of the decline. It does not really matter who is elected, the collapse will continue a pace. It is beyond recovery.

  304. E.G. says:

    Shana Tova to all those who celebrate it, Honey for all!

    http://www.youtube.com/user/LatmaTV#p/a/u/0/iGQqPJq4BSM

    __
    + Lokshen for Cynic ;-)

  305. desta@israel says:

    shana tova and i think that perfectly understand who create this kind of speculations and why)

  306. incognito says:

    Re Latma, when the absurd is the reality, it’s not that funny anymore.

    Shana tova.

  307. incognito says:

    Biladi, Biladi – what’s in a name?
    A radical Jewish leftist who supported the steps that led to the legislation turned to a head of an Arab organization and asked: “We did what you wanted, and you still aren’t satisfied. What should we call the country so you’ll really feel equal?” With a broad smile the head of the Arab association replied: “What’s the problem? The real name was and always will be: Falastin.”
    By Shlomo Avineri
    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/biladi-biladi-what-s-in-a-name-1.312848

  308. incognito says:

    2 pieces on alter-jews:

    Some Insight’s into Israel’s Hard Left
    http://yaacovlozowick.blogspot.com/2010/09/some-insights-into-israels-hard-left.html

    Gideon Levy and Uncomfortable Truths
    by Benjamin Kerstein
    http://newledger.com/2010/09/gideon-levy-and-uncomfortable-truths/

  309. incognito says:

    U.S. Taxpayers Foot Bill for Ludicrous Palestinian Authority Propaganda Campaign
    A campaign designed to put the onus for peace on Israeli citizens is getting deservedly ridiculed.
    by Barry Rubin
    http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/u-s-taxpayers-foot-bill-for-ludicrous-palestinian-authority-propaganda-campaign/2/

    In there is evidence that alter-jews don’t hate themselves. They only deem other jews stupid.

  310. incognito says:

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3945358,00.html

    The arab side is justifyingly cynical, only the Israeli side deluded. The former know it’s misleading propaganda.

  311. Eliyahu says:

    re #29, Not only was Filastin never the name of the whole country –not even for Arabs/Muslims in their geographic tradition– but the PLO and Hamas are not interested in a separate state of Palestien or Filastin. The name of the whole in the heyday of the Roman Empire was Judea [IUDAEA]. The Romans officially changed it to Syria Palaestina after defeating the Jewish Bar Kokhba Revolt circa 135 CE. When the Arabs conquered the country in 634-640 CE, they used the name Jund Filastin for only the southern part of the country [southern Samaria and southwards, the northernmost point being Haifa, approx]. Jund in Arabic means army or a major division of an army and here can be translated as military district. The north of the country was called Jund Urdunn, that is, the Jordan military district. Filastin was the area that the Byzantine empire had called Palaestina Prima, one of three districts that the Byzantines divided Palaestina into.

    http://ziontruth.blogspot.com/2005/12/what-did-jews-call-land-of-israel.html

    So we have Emperor Hadrian to thank for changing the name of Judea to “palaestina.” The Jews before and after Hadrian called the country the Land of Israel.

  312. incognito says:

    Dismissing the New Paradigm Imperils Israel
    By Yoram Hazony
    http://www.forward.com/articles/131130/

  313. Cynic says:

    Just came across this “on topic” post about Soros and it gets to discuss those Jew disliking Jews.
    Soros, Europeans: Die Juden sind Unser Unglück!

    According to Jewish Telegraphic Agency (JTA) reporter Uriel Heilman, Steinhardt interrupted Soros’ defense of anti-Semitism. “‘George Soros does not think Jews should be hated any more than they deserve to be,’ Steinhardt said by way of clarification, eliciting chuckles from the audience.”

    The interruption gave Soros a chance to catch his breath. He said he had more observations on the subject, but asked first if any journalists were in the room. When he found out journalists were present (surprise, surprise), he held his tongue.
    ……………
    The bad news is that the splintering of Jewish communities has meant that wealthy Jews no longer feel bound by any religious obligations to their brethren, and instead feel solidarity with other wealthy folks, Jewish and gentile alike. And while wealthy Jews feel that irrational hatred for those less well off that is typical of so many wealthy people, since it is socially unacceptable to show hatred for poor blacks and Hispanics, and wealthy Jews have business alliances with white gentiles, they focus their class hatred on Jews from the lower tax brackets. Poor, working-class, and lower-middle-class Jews often seem to be the only groups that well-to-do Jews are unafraid to “stand up to.”
    ………..
    And then there is the anti-Semitism of Jews who suffer from WASP-envy.

    Interesting read.

  314. incognito says:

    Soros is the nastiest specimen of jew hating jews. All you gotta do is read what he did during WWII as a child, and how he responded to queries about that experience.

    Becoming very rich and therefore powerful, he lost whatever character he never had.

    Probably aware of his despisement by the jews for both his being an awful dreck and by many for his misuse of money and power, it is only natural that he would be a jew hater and also use that as a way to ingratiate himself to gentiles.

    Pretty trivial analysis.

  315. Eliyahu says:

    Incog et al.
    Funny, isn’t it, that “leftists” have no trouble collaborating with super rich capitalist george soros in fulfilling his agenda?

  316. Cynic says:

    Eliyahu,

    cause they’re all in his pocket:

    From GEORGE SOROS

    In a November 11, 2003 interview with Laura Blumenfeld of the Washington Post, Soros described how he had jump-started the Shadow Party during the summer of 2002 by summoning a team of political strategists, activists, and Democrat donors to his Southampton beach house in Long Island. The attendees included: Morton H. Halperin (Director of Soros’ Open Society Institute); John Podesta (Democrat strategist and former Bill Clinton chief of staff); Jeremy Rosner (Democrat strategist and pollster, and ex-foreign policy speechwriter for Bill Clinton); Robert Boorstin (Democrat strategist and pollster); Carl Pope (America Coming Together co-founder, Democrat strategist, and Sierra Club Executive Director); Steve Rosenthal (Labor leader, CEO of America Coming Together, and former advisor to Clinton Labor Secretary Robert Reich); Peter Lewis (major Democrat donor and insurance entrepreneur); Rob Glaser (major Democrat donor and Silicon Valley pioneer); Ellen Malcolm (co-founder and President of America Coming Together and founder of Emily’s List); Rob McKay (major Democrat donor); and Lewis and Dorothy Cullman (major Democrat donors).

    Did you read the book The Shadow Party by Richard Poe & David Horowitz?

    The Shadow Party

    However, it performs these functions under the private supervision of Mr. Soros and his associates. The Shadow Party derives its power from its ability to raise huge sums of money. By controlling the Democrat purse strings, the Shadow Party can make or break any Democrat candidate by deciding whether or not to fund him. During the 2004 election cycle, the Shadow Party raised more than $300 million for Democrat candidates, prompting one of its operatives, MoveOn PAC director Eli Pariser, to declare, ‘Now it’s our party. We bought it, we own it.…’”

    By the way did you see the special magazine the Jpost added to their daily last week. It was all about multi-millionaire Jews? George Soros is mentioned and that he is a Philanthropist, but nothing about his past in Hungary, his insider trading conviction in France, yadda yadda …..
    They should have included Bernie Madoff for balance, don’t you think?

    • incognito says:

      Incidentally, if any rich man funds conservative activism, the media and academics would be up in arms about “special interest groups” and “the greedy Wall Street mafia” and what hvae you. But if nasties conscienceless like Soros, who manipulated markets and contributed to recession in Asia for the sheer purpose of getting richer, buys out all the left outlets, well, that’s kosher.

  317. incognito says:

    Funny, isn’t it, that “leftists” have no trouble collaborating with super rich capitalist george soros in fulfilling his agenda?

    There are rich men and there are rich men.

  318. E.G. says:

    A new design for the new year!

    • Cynic says:

      Let’s hope the New Year turns out to be as pretty as this.

      Just one request to keep the column width down to maybe a maximum of 10 to 12 words. It gets very tiring, for me, to battle with more per line and I have to desist from reading the complete post because of the strain.

  319. Eliyahu says:

    cause they’re all in his pocket:

    of course they are Cynic, l’shanah tovah, by the way. But I wouldn’t say all. Just most of them and it’s very comfy in that pocket. Lot’s of money to nibble on when you get hungry. But look at it this way. As we all know, there are many avenues, many routes to get to where you want to go. Many roads lead to Rome. So you can get to where you want to go by taking the left fork or the right fork or the middle fork. And you get to the same place no matter which route you took. The German Second Reich wanted to win the First World War. They thought that they could do it by getting Russia out of the war. And they got Russia out by sending Lenin there in the famous sealed train.

    So the arch-Leftist Lenin served the interests of German imperialism or vice versa.

  320. Cynic says:

    Eliyahu,

    Somewhere I read someone asking why Soros wasn’t tried for War crimes especially since he admitted to helping the Nazis confiscate the property of Jews. Isn’t it hysterically hypocritical how the left would align themselves with a war criminal (If I wasn’t there to do it someone else would have done it)
    Any doubt he took some of that purloined stuff to Fence in Whitechapel to pay for his studies in Economics before going to the States to apply his London education?

    They don’t see George as a capitalist but as the puppeteer in chief manipulating/facilitating in the interests of their agenda.
    George the philanthropist; it’s all in the nuance.

    • incognito says:

      They don’t see George as a capitalist but as the puppeteer in chief manipulating/facilitating in the interests of their agenda.
      George the philanthropist; it’s all in the nuance.

      Fascists — either of the left or of the right — always deem the means justifiable by the goals.

  321. Eliyahu says:

    my view is that the “left” today is mainly a manipulated body of public opinion.
    Besides overlooking –consciously– many many humanitarian crises throughout the world, such as the poverty in Africa, Borneo, Burma, parts of the Americas, etc., in favor of the Hamas in Gaza and Gaza’s “humanitarian needs,” they overlook what Lenin said was most important, the working class. Here we have millions of semi-slave workers in the Persian Gulf sheikdoms ill-paid and ill-treated. But not a peep out of the paladins of the working class!! So it would be kind to call the “left” today “fake.”

    • incognito says:

      But it MUST be that way: the left has lost the socio-economic war and it had to find other avenues to exploit. Who would today respond to a “dictatorial of the proletariat”?

      They had to find another “oppressed”class: the “third-world”, which they must save, another utopia to build.

      That some in the 3rd world are also the enemies of the social system which defeated them is very convenient for the “new left” — which calls itself progressive — and one of the reasons it supports jihadis, the utterly regressive.

      Again: the means justifies the goals. They are deluding themselves that they can control the jihadis once they bring down the west. The jihadis will eat them for breakfast.

  322. incognito says:

    [MUST READ]
    Saad Hariri’s cautionary tale
    http://www.carolineglick.com/e/2010/09/saad-hariris-cautionary-tale.php

    When I say collapse, I mean collapse.

  323. incognito says:

    Bret Stephens: Europe Reverts to Type
    The EU’s response to anti-Semitism? “No comment.”

  324. Eliyahu says:

    Incog, re Caroline Glick’s piece on Lebanon. Bush’s policy on Lebanon was bad enough. But Obama’s policy of sucking up to Syria, overlooking its collaboration in killing American soldiers and Iraqi civilians in Iraq, as well as Syria’s murders of Lebanese politicians and journalists, made Syria’s return to control of Lebanon a sure thing. So blame Obama and hilary for the current state of Lebanon. They made a bad situation worse.

  325. incognito says:

    So blame Obama and hilary for the current state of Lebanon. They made a bad situation worse.

    That’s what I meant by collapse. But Israel is part of the collapse: without the utter failure that was the Lebanon 2nd war it would have been much harder for the US to mess up so badly now.

  326. incognito says:

    [MUST READ]
    Theater of the absurd
    Op-ed: In different universe, ‘peace process’ could well be the stuff of macabre comedy
    Martin Sherman
    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3953028,00.html

  327. incognito says:

    On topic:

    A Yom Kippur Prayer For Jews who are “Proud to be Ashamed to Be Jews”
    by Phyllis Chesler
    http://pajamasmedia.com/phyllischesler/2010/09/15/a-yom-kippur-prayer-for-jews-who-are-%e2%80%9cproud-to-be-ashamed-to-be-jews%e2%80%9d/

  328. incognito says:

    Somewhat on topic:

    EXPOSING HOW POST-ZIONISTS MANIPULATE HISTORY
    by Avi Beker
    http://www.think-israel.org/beker.postzionistsmanipulatehistory.html

  329. Eliyahu says:

    Incog, unfortunately this new format for the blog does show numbers for the comment posts. So I am referring to your response to me about American policy on Lebanon. Maybe it is not a collapse but simply US policy that Lebanon be handed over to Syria, and actually for some of the same reasons that the foreign policy establishment wants to wreck Israel. Lebanon was/is too prosperous, had too many smart people and so on. Look, back in the 1970s, the US State Dept approved and indeed encouraged the Syrian invasion of Lebanon. The line was something like: Lebanon is in turmoil because of civil war. Syria will settle things down and stabilize the situation. The problem with this claim is that it was Syria that had done so much to destabilize Lebanon. Yet Syria had sent in the “palestine liberation army” in 1974 or 1975 which was under Syrian command, to destabilize and/or take over Lebanon. And then Syria appears as the savior that will stabilize the situation.

    You recall all the massacres and assassinations of anti-Syrian leaders in Lebanon? Kamal Jumblatt killed in about 1976, for instance?? Did Washington ever take any concrete steps to stop the massacres? Did it condemn the Syrian and PLO assassinations and massacres? No US troops were sent in to Lebanon to stabilize the situation. But US troops were sent to Beirut in 1982 in order to protect the PLO leadership. Why were US troops not sent to Lebanon before that? Did the State Dept give a damn about their Christian brethren in Lebanon?

    • incognito says:

      Incog, unfortunately this new format for the blog does show numbers for the comment posts.

      But it has instead a hierarchic structure which means you can post general messages as well as respond to specific ones, which is equivalent to the number system. See how I just did with this reply?

      Maybe it is not a collapse but simply US policy that Lebanon be handed over to Syria, and actually for some of the same reasons that the foreign policy establishment wants to wreck Israel.

      I am not sure that this is indeed a policy, or that it is being handed WILLINGLY to Syria. But even if it is, such a policy is so clearly against the interests and values of the US and the west, and it invites so many more attacks on its interests, that the ignorance, stupidity and incompetence that drive it is nothing short of collapse.

      Look, back in the 1970s, the US State Dept approved and indeed encouraged the Syrian invasion of Lebanon. The line was something like: Lebanon is in turmoil because of civil war. Syria will settle things down and stabilize the situation.

      Ditto and it only proves a worse collapse: the US never learns from its mistakes and repeats them over and over again, there is no learning curve.

      Syria will settle things down and stabilize the situation. The problem with this claim is that it was Syria that had done so much to destabilize Lebanon.

      Thanks for validating my point.

      There is this saying that you should not assign to malice what can be readily explained by stupidity and ignorance. There is no doubt that there were, are and always will be people in the west — mostly elites — who prefer this kind of policies. But if they indeed enacted such policies you can see their consequences: the US is bankrupt and has increasingly no say in the affairs of the world, with every thug in the world pissing on it.

      That is why I am arguing that such behavior is in itself collapse.

  330. incognito says:

    BTW, there is a drawback to the hierarchic structure (as I know from my expertise in databases): you can’t just read the latest posts, you must go back and see if there are any “sub”-answers to any earlier post. Inconvenient.

    But then, there is inconvenience in numbers too: when you refer to an earlier one, I often must go back and see what it was.

  331. Cynic says:

    Elitahu,

    Did it condemn the Syrian and PLO assassinations and massacres? No US troops were sent in to Lebanon to stabilize the situation. But US troops were sent to Beirut in 1982 in order to protect the PLO leadership. Why were US troops not sent to Lebanon before that? Did the State Dept give a damn about their Christian brethren in Lebanon?

    Because the thinking then was in terms of maintaining stability in the region for Saudi Arabia and “pensions”, not humanitarian terms. Realpolitik for the Realists and ended up with the biggest mess in 1983.
    Just go back and see where all those diplomats and politicians went to; working for the Arab countries.

    The churches worked for the Arabs, not their individual flocks. No difference between Vatican and Orthodox and they seemingly had a similar policy to Europe and the State Department to keep the “meat” grinder PLO going.
    Certainly those advising Reagan through the Carter regime and into the first Bush regime foreign policy was Realpolitik with the Realists keeping an eye on forthcoming “pensions” and lobbying positions.
    Hasn’t someone compiled a compendium of Western politicians and diplomats and their employment by the Arab world?
    Some years back there was a list of all former British diplomats supporting Libya, for example.
    The last concern was the “unwashed” masses.

  332. Cynic says:

    incognito,

    But it has instead a hierarchic structure which means you can post general messages as well as respond to specific ones, which is equivalent to the number system. See how I just did with this reply?

    Yes but it is difficult getting back, in my case, to the original/specific as I have to do either a top down or bottom up search whereas all I needed in the past was “Edit > Find” and comment number.

    • incognito says:

      I agree.

      But we can simulate the number system here: if we don’t use the hierarchy at all and use @XXX, where XXX is an arbitrary number for each post, then we can use the old method to search.

  333. Eliyahu says:

    Cynic, do you really think that Western diplomacy is interested in stability? Tell me that Hitler fooled chamberlain at munich, will you please?

    And Incog, do you think that Western diplomacy or Anglo-American diplomacy gives a damn about Western interests and Western values? I don’t agree with that saying that you quote:
    you should not assign to malice what can be readily explained by stupidity and ignorance. Why not?

    This reminds me of Joseph Heller’s novel, Good as Gold. I read it in 1994 and it’s the last novel that I read. I recommend it. In the book, the hero, Prof Bruce Gold, goes to a Washington cocktail party and there at the center of attention is somebody named J. Bigelow Cadwalader III, or some such. He was an old State Dept hand and it was said that he had “lost” several rather sizable countries. Yet nobody at the party shunned him. He was treated with great respect and affection. He was lionized, we might say, eventhough he displayed some distasteful habits, like stuffing his pockets with pastries. So the “loser” of countries was a hero back in Washington where it counts. I trust that you guys see the point.

    • incognito says:

      And Incog, do you think that Western diplomacy or Anglo-American diplomacy gives a damn about Western interests and Western values?

      Isn’t that what collapse clearly implies?

      I don’t agree with that saying that you quote:
      you should not assign to malice what can be readily explained by stupidity and ignorance. Why not?
      ormer

      Because the chance for the latter is much higher than that for the former. And malice is, in a way, a form of ignorance/stupidity, at least in my book.

    • incognito says:

      Cynic, do you really think that Western diplomacy is interested in stability? Tell me that Hitler fooled chamberlain at munich, will you please?

      Yes, Hitler fooled most of europe precisely BECAUSE it was desperate for stability. Those for whom stability is the utmost of goals are easy victims of fooling/blackmail/thuggery by those who know to exploit it.

      But my notion of the stability usually desired is more akin to cowardice and unwillingness to fight in one’s defence of interests, values and even existence.

  334. incognito says:

    off topic, but important for understanding obama:

    [MUST READS ABOUT OBAMA]
    =========================
    The Audacity of Barack Obama
    http://claremont.org/publications/crb/id.1579/article_detail.asp

    The Stakes of Obamacare
    http://www.claremont.org/publications/crb/id.1752/article_detail.asp

    How will Obama’s liberalism shape America?
    http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2009/0211/p09s01-coop.html

    The New New Deal
    http://www.hillsdale.edu/images/userImages/mvanderwei/Page_6907/Imprimis_May-June10.pdf
    =====================

  335. incognito says:

    Vietnam revisited. Validation of how ignorant and incompetent the US is when it comes to foreign intervention, how it always fails to learn from the past and experience and how it corrupts itself in the process.

    And this is who criticizes Israel and compells it to make concessions?

    Anybody depending on the US is committing suicide.

    MUST READ!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Impressions of Afghanistan
    http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2010/08/impressions-of-afghanistan/62236/1/

  336. incognito says:

    Good stuff to watch to understand academia: Interview with Prof. Harvey Mansfield
    at http://tv.nationalreview.com/uncommonknowledge/

  337. incognito says:

    Collapse:

    The Curious Logic of Our Governing Elites
    By Randall Hoven
    http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/09/the_curious_logic_of_our_gover.html

  338. incognito says:

    US media infiltrated by islamist propagandists becomes just like the media in islamic countries:

    http://www.investigativeproject.org/2189/raufs-group-claims-credit-for-training-ny-times

  339. I am struck by the 11.01 comment by Incognito

    If the United States government set out to support Syria then that IS their policy and programme. What is to be gained by trying to do otehr than accept that as fact.

    Something similar to your political line is being exhibited by many Jewish sites, and by American Jews who are opposed to Obama, but who cannot see any alternative but to grasp at some other American elitist figure, or indeed political group.

    Many are making the mistake of saying Obama is such an obvious hater of Israel, maybe sarah Palin would be like a respite for Israel.

    I actually disagree. The reasons being contained in the following reasoning:

    1. Obama in pwer as now, all of the Israeli people are united against an OSLO effort

    2. Put Palin in power, then all of that OSLO Peace crap resurfaces

  340. Incognito

    the first thing for the Israeli people to achieve is ideological independence, especially ideological independence from the US power machine

    Due to this Obama Government the beginning of that is there now. It is not the finished article. As yet it is really not expressed in an open and conscious fashion. The Media in Israel in general tells lies. The nearest I see of this is in the DEBKAfile speculations, and others like Spengler, who analyse the American power machine as it really is in the world, and as far as we can know it, because power elites do not tell us what they dlo or aim for, and we have to often understand realithy by watching WHAT THEY DO

    But Israeli people now are united against Obama.

    Thast is a step which is of great political value

    The last thing any Israeli now needs is to start again having illusions in any American, or Greek, or Russian, leader

    I always believed and said that Netanyahu would strike iran, that is his one service to the Jews, and if that happens THE WHOLE WORLD CHANGES

    If that does not happen in the end many, many die, and not just Jews of Israel.

    It is very like 1933 in Germany.

  341. Eliyahu says:

    I agree with Felix in that –if the US seems to support Syria and seems to want to help Syria gain territory and doesn’t mind that Syria has been trying –with much success– to rule Lebanon since 1975 at least & if the US doesn’t mind that Syria has aLebanese ex-prime minister blown to pieces and has other Lebanese leaders assassinated, then maybe they really do support Syria against Lebanon and against Israel and maybe even against American troops in Iraq since they have done little or nothing to stop Syria from jihadis into Iraq. Maybe their policy is successful and not a failure. The question is only: What is the real policy?

  342. incognito says:

    Quigley,

    To be honest, your interpretation of my position is nonsense.

    Even if the intention is to hand Lebanon to Syria, this only validates even more my claim that the US govt is incompetent and stupid if it believes this is in the US interest. As Eliyahu himself has stated, this was tried in the past more than once, always with the same counter-result. The bottom line is that the US acts against its own interests, it is being utterly defeated and it increasingly has no say in world events. Its policies reflect a desperation of collapse and an illusion of enemies turning to friends.

    What does “ideological independence” mean? The dependence is MATERIAL, not ideological. It is not clear to me how Israel can achieve material independence from the west and survive.

    If we’re talking about acting as a crazy state — like Iran and NK — in an attempt to make a collapsed west less willing to take Israel on and raise the risks of instability,
    I have advocated just that. But it may or it may not work and if it does not the consequences can be dire.

    But it’s not going to happen in the absence of true leadership and with the current spineless failed and corrupted elite.

    Yes indeed it’s like 1938 in the whole world and it looks like the existence of a state did not change the appeasing nature of the jews. It does not look like they learned the lesson of the 30′s.

  343. Incognito

    As you write:

    The bottom line is that the US acts against its own interests, it is being utterly defeated and it increasingly has no say in world events. Its policies reflect a desperation of collapse and an illusion of enemies turning to friends.

    Letme start from the the last point

    1. In world affairs as you know nations never really have friends. They is all thge more so in relation to US

    2. Desparation of collapse: You are referring in reality to the crisis within world capitalist system, which is a world system . From desparation does not ever come collapse. There is always an alternative. THAT INCOGNITO IS THE VERY BIG MISTAKE THAT YOU HAVE MADE HERE AND IT IS A MISTAKE WHICH WOULD BE FATAL FOR JEWS ESPECIALLY TO MAKE. I said 1933, not 1938 and I said so deliberately, because it was then that the German Bankers decided to go with Hitler and the Nazis, best explained by John Toland in his book named: Hitler. I repeat to you Incognito out of “collapse” comes from a machine like that of the US not paralysis but an alternative. Deal with the possibility of an alternative. My own view of that alternative, for what it is worth, is TO MY MIND the certainty of an alliance between US and Islam. I was reading just last night how Hitler was much taken by Turkey. John Bostom has done work on alliance of Hitler with Islam, and his high regard for Islam as opposed to Christianithy. It is logical. A system in crisis will seel an alternative.

    3. no say in own events. Not at all true. Events, such as the deepening crisis, the inability to climb out of the crisis, because since it is a crisis of credit to begin with it cannot thereby get out of the crisis by offering more credit, that is valueless paper money, yes that lessens the number of roads that it can take, but it also pushes the whole system towards a Fascist type solution, and this Fascist solution is being reflected internationally, as it was especially in Yugoslavia, where the rights of a sovereign nation were trampled upon, and where the US lined up with Izetbegovic, who was a Nazi, a real Nazi, working contemporaneously with Hajj Am in el Husseini in the Holocaust, both being members of the Muslim Brotherhood, in that small and confined space of the Balkans during the Holocaust. This is even now not so well known, indeed the history of the Jewish people is not well known, and the objective history is not at all given truthfully by ideologically biassed historians such as Paul Johnson. The significance of the alliance with Holocaust creator Izetbegovic has been missed by most Jewish people, right and left.

    Finally this may be a conflict over terminology. When you say that America is acting against its own interests perhaps you really mean its interests as defined by the great American Revolution. But that was when America was emerging, was youthful and progressive. Now old and decrepid and in serious, serious trouble, it is a different ball game

    I agree totally with Eiyahu, and related to that I am opposed to conspiracy theorizing, it is necessary to use our FIVE senses in order to understand reality. The conspiracy theorist needs a sixth sense in order to impose their version onto reality

  344. This is quote about the Jihad of Turkey against Armenia

    “The scene was inaccurate, she said, because the crosses in the film were large, but in reality they were little and pointed: ‘They took the clothes off the girls. They made them bend down. And after raping them, they made them sit on the pointed wood, through…’ Americans, she said, ‘Can’t show such terrible things’ (and I can’t write about them in full detail).

    “After the World War ended in 1918 several Turks, including ‘the horseshoe master,’ were executed for war crimes. Hundreds of perpetrators went free, and to this day Turkish textbooks cover up the slaughter of Armenians, as they also cover up the slaughter of Greek Christians in western Turkey during that same era.

    “Prove Hitler wrong. Governments are to wield the sword to bring justice, so remember Armenian and other victims of governments that killed their own people, and thank God that the United States has worked to protect innocent people in Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Sudan.

    —Marvin Olasky, World magazine, October 23, 2004, p. 52

    http://www.theroadtoemmaus.org/RdLb/33Rlg/Islm/Islm&Hitlr.htm

    Marvin Olasky is clearly biassed as regards what happened in Yugoslavia.

    This leads him to give a totally wrong analysis on what was the role of the US in Yugoslavia.

    If you follow the numbers living in the province of Serbia, which was and is Kosovo, you will see that over the last century there was a real Jihad against Serb Christians in operation. Christians are now down to less that 5 per cent!

    This is important because historically Serbs were always at the forefront of the fight (defence) against Jihad.

    Note how easily the writer above slips into defence of this Jihad in the case of Yugoslavia.

    He does not deal with the facts of reality, he wants to forget about these facts, so that he can impose HIS facts onto the situation

    It is clear to me that the US is in an alliance with Islam, but note, an Islam that it has tamed, thus it works initially with Bin Laden, then fights against Bin Laden when he gets “out of hand”

    This also explains why the US is building up an army based on the disciples of that very Hajj Amin el Husseini, close ally of Izetbegovic in the Holocaust, on the outskirts of Tel Aviv and on Jewish land.

    Against US interests? What rubbish! Never against US interests! Always FOR US interests.

    Not in the interests of the great American people, but that is a different matter, which is why I unreservedly support Geller and Spencer, and oppose the building of the Mosque on Ground Zerlo.

  345. incognito says:

    Quigley,

    I am dealing with evidence and facts, not wishful thinking. And I am speaking of the west, not world capitalism.

    When there is evidence to support that the US recovers from the collapse rather than acclerates it, losing its influence in the world due to bankruptcy, corruption and appeasement, we’ll talk. Until then, you’re grinding water.

    For the sake of the world I would like to hope that I am wrong.

  346. incognito says:

    What conspiracy theorizing are you talking about?

  347. incognito says:

    I think US’s situation is more akin’s to Rome’s in its fall, than to the 30′s. And I don’t see any inheritors to the US like those that Rome had.

  348. Incognito

    Let us start again!

    You have said above that there is a serious crisis in leadership in Israel. Many people say that and of course it is obvious.

    I seek to resolve that crisis of leadership by building a Trotskyist party in Israel. That is my answer and I will answer questions if any on that.

    I am living at present in Spain but that means nothing. I am prepared to travel or live anywhere to try to resolve this issue of leadership.

    You also identified the issue of leadership as being crucial.

    Is it too much to ask or do you think it would be impertinent of me to ask you how you respond to this issue of leadersnhiñp

    1. Will it solve itself

    2. or is there need for a conscious factor.

    I await “then we will talk”

    (The issue of leadership is very much on topic here)

  349. Incognito

    If you take the comment of Eliyahu at 9.11 on the US and Lebanon, this is a classic example of the way to fight against conspiracy politics, which is one of the greatest dangers that the Jews face. He deals with facts only, then generalises only from those facts.

    It was directed against you.

    My point about conspiracy promoters like Jones and thousands of others is that they do not take the evidence of their 5 senses as being vital, but they always leave room for conjecture, in the form of a sixth sense

    We are not dealing with “the west” which like your circle is a meaningless term

    Russia is very much a force in the capitalist world, as is China.

    How can you begin tio understand this crisis without examining it on a world basis.

    Your method is not the same mistake, but is related to the mistake made by those on the Left who looked to colonial lands, to Fanon´s poor and downtrodden etc, and away from the totality of the capitalist system

    You refer to the “west”…mistake

    They talked about Algeria, or Vietnam, or Cuba…then on finally to the “Palestinians”…same methodological mistake

    Until these points of confusion are followed up you cannot deal with the Pappes and Burgs

  350. Incognito

    Much reading of people like Robert Aumann will mince our brains. I could not take much of that.

    Read the comment of Garry on 11.19 for the correct answer to Aumann.

    garry says to say to the Arabs re peace, no dice! Judea, Samaria,
    Gaza and Golan is ours. Bye!

    Nothing else in what Aumann says is of any use. Garry put it all in a few words.

    My question to all here is how to get a leadership in Israel which will be like Garry?

  351. I did not mean this to become a contest between me and Incognito.

    Basically I am throwiing down a challenge to the whole site, what are you going to DO to resolve this question of leadership inside the Israeli people.

    It is in the vacumn of a leadership of a true revolutionary party that these traitors which you call the left are able to operate (pose as being left).
    Their position was not and is not the position of Trotsky, the primary revolutionary socialist of our time.

    Who is prepared to join me in developing this?

  352. My comment did not go through. In short, please, all, Eliyahu, we need a new leadership in Israel. How?

  353. incognito says:

    I seek to resolve that crisis of leadership by building a Trotskyist party in Israel.

    Sorry, cannot take this seriously.

  354. incognito says:

    Much reading of people like Robert Aumann will mince our brains. I could not take much of that.

    That requires a brain in the first place.

  355. E.G. says:

    Felix Quigley,

    My question to all here is how to get a leadership in Israel which will be like Garry?

    And you think a lovely great Bronsteinesque revolution (roll well the Rs) is the answer?
    Because they don’t speak Yiddish in Spain?

  356. Daniel Bielak says:

    Felix,

    I appreciate your support of the Jewish people very much.

    I agree with almost everything that you have written here, in comments, on this post.

    However, your understanding of Marxism (including Trotskyism) is wrong, and, in thereof, your understanding of the how the social process of political processes work is wrong, and, in thereof, your understanding of what are beneficial ways of acting that are involved in the functioning of a beneficial political system of society is wrong.

  357. Daniel Bielak says:

    The main actions that need to be done are for leaders of Israel – officials of the government of Israel – to stop appeasing, and to start telling the truth – is for leaders of Israel to start telling the factual history and current reality of the situation to world leaders and to the whole world – and is, as part of that, for leaders of Israel to start verbally defending their people and their country against the campaign of lies that are part of a campaign to destroy Israel.

    The question is, what actions need to be done in order for that to happen.

  358. Daniel Bielak says:

    Yes, of course, world leaders are bigoted and are, to varying degrees, themselves involved in – are members of – the campaign of lies that that are part of a campaign to destroy Israel, and world leaders are so out of their bigotry – involving their ignorance of various kinds – and, in some cases, resulting in their continuously “forgetting”, to varying degrees, the factual history of the situation, to the degree that they know the factual history of the situation, and, in all cases, resulting in their holding perverse wrong views about the reality and nature of current events that they perceive that are current events that are involved in the situation.

    One has to protect oneself.

    Leaders have to protect their own people.

    Jewish people have to learn that only oneself can protect oneself.

    One has to verbally defend oneself in order to protect oneself. This is how the world works.

  359. Daniel Bielak says:

    And, yes, of course, some world leaders are themselves consciously involved in – are consciously members of – the campaign of lies that are part of a campaign to destroy Israel, and are so because of bigoted wrong views that they hold about, and because of antipathy that they, as a result, feel toward, the Jewish people.

    That being the case, the following is just as relevant as if that were not the case, and that being the case, the following is no less true than if that were not the case.

    One has to protect oneself.

    Leaders have to protect their own people.

    Jewish people have to learn that only oneself can protect oneself.

    One has to verbally defend oneself in order to protect oneself. This is how the world works.

  360. Incognito

    I feel I should make it clear that I bear no malice towards you at all. In a real way we are on the same side, the side of Israel, and our differences shhould be placed against that, and this will be a pattern repeated between many other people as we go along and as the situation will sharpen, as I am sure it will.

    Intellectually speaking I do the best I can and am always disatisfied but perhaps other people can come in and make up, because we are in need of working socially and not just individually

    The problem with Trotsky is tinged with tragedy which is being continued in many spheres of human life.

    You people on this site should be sympathetic.

    The problem is that the more time goes by it seems that the more this man is lied about.

    Now you Jewish people of considerable intelligence should be pricking up your ears at this, because of course you too are lied about, and this is picking up speed.

    I would draw your attention to a thread on Harry´s Place at present:

    The thread is based on the commemoration of the assasination of Trotsky (it is 70 years) by a small group in London (and i believe that trotsky would disown this group because it accepts the 2 state solution)

    The lies fairly take your breath away. But why?

  361. The url for this latest scandal of lies is

    http://hurryupharry.org/2010/09/22/trotsky-a-hero/

    There are so many lies it would be hard to know where to start, but one of the early ones is that Trotsky was an advocate of “thought control”.

    That fairly takes your breath away, because even though you are pro capitalist or pro Labour Parties, same thing, you would have to answer why this man if he was a thought controller, was tackling every subject almost under the sun and giving his opinion.

    Including issues in the art and literature world, where he held a firm position that while the working class should impose its dictatorship, in the field of art there should be total freedom of the artist; in economic and political matters dictatorship, in issues of art and literature anarchhy.

    Some of the lies are taken up in the discussion by one or two but the great majority are like sheep.

    But note they work in the general and when pressed to discuss the concrete, they are lost. the actual richness of Trotsky on fascism and WW2 is totally excluded, largely possibly because they do not know it. They are ignorant.

    On the issue of power, on the issue of dictatorship of the working class, and its party, and there necessarily has to be a party, in issues connected with raw power, and power always IS raw, you know leave aside the Marxist prognosis for a second, Jewish people could learn something very valuable here.

    True Jews are haunted by Moyshe dayan handing over the keys to the Temple Mount on the day after winning the 7 days war in 1967. It is as if Dayan was apologizing for having won.

    What should Dayan have done after that War:

    1. He should have been filled with the feeling that the Jews were FORCED once again to fight a war

    2. That measures should have been taken to end the possibility of a future war

    3. That the Jewish state should have ESTABLISHED ITS DICTATORSHIP inside that state

    4. That inside that state only the dictates of the safety of Jews, after 3500 years of antisemitism, prevail

    I believe Netanyahu will strike Iran

    But how to have a Jewish (not Marxist) leadership that will do the above.

  362. daniel

    Trotsky was a man of the working class which is the essence of Marxism and the analysis which Marx made of society

    At no point did Trotsky ever give up on that idea of leadership especially when things turned under Stalin, say from 1924

    Now you do not see society like that. That is OK.

    But all of your valuable work in how to make Jewish people first of all state truthfully their own history, that still has to be done, in your mind, and in my mind also.

    here there seems to be a philosophical difference between us.

    you say Israeli leaders should start doing this and answering back to the lies based on the truthful understanding

    And some may do this.

    But there are many things inside the lives of these Israeli Jewish leaders, often day to day things, which makes this very difficult for them to do, plus many are oldish people, and it is a fact of life that if youth are not involved in such an enterprise, then it cannot succeed, because the youth alone have got that quality which is most important, lack of cynicism.

    Plus you or me Daniel on this website saying this matters little in the broad scheme of things.

    only a party could make an impact on the political scene in a place like Israel that would be a substantive factor in changing the situation and future events.

    There are good people like Eltad. But not such a party.

    daniel let us on this site start here.

    let us put a Jewish party on the ground based on the elucidation of that history you presented earlier.
    I emphasise most categorically Jewish not Marxist.

    (It is not just the history which is important but also how the history informs the present practice which is important)

  363. Haaretz newspaper reported that 40 teenage girls spent three days in an established West Bank outpost in “spiritual preparation” for the “relentless battle on the right to settle the Land of Israel”.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/28/jewish-settlements-west-bank

    I think the group is called Youth for Israel.

    At the time of the expulsion from Gaza it was youth who travelled and carried the fight against Sharon and the US

    They tried to line up with the IDF and against the Sharon “secular” police who had been specially trained in hostility to the Jewish ideal.

    Daniel I would doubt very much if many of these youth know the history as you put it forward earlier.

    There is no doubt that Jewish people will fight and that especially young Jewish people will lead in so far as they can.

    Consequently a party of education can be built very quickly if there is an initial cadre and initially that cadre does not need to be very large.

    That is where older people and youth can merge very successfully.

  364. I placed “young Jewish settlers” into google

    Along with the above piece i looked down and saw a link to “young Jewish and left”

    Then the most disgraceful thing came up. A set of pictures all composited together, click on a photo and they appear to be young Jewish and traitors

    I looked at a few. Third along a girl brought me to Camp Kinterland and I looked at images all sweetness.

    Their program is culture, Sports, Fine Arts, Waterfront, Adventure

    I look in vain for anything to do with history or anything to do with the political issues facing Jews today. The title “kinderland” says it all.

    Children being taught by these people to avoid reality, to be taught how to be non political

    These young Jewish people are precisely what Daniel is talking about. In the absence of the true narrative of your people there will be substituted a lying narrative.

    The human mind cannot ever exist in a vacumn

    Some may turn to drink but even they may have a hazy narrative of the world to tell.
    That is what is needed, that a true and well rounded narrative is told so that young people do have the chance to learn and avoid these well laid traps which waste their time and their valuable lives

  365. Another picture brought us to an organization called “Birthrite unplugged”. Another trap awaits for Jewish youth in America

    They write among other things:

    Our Re-Plugged program is for Palestinian children living in refugee camps. In two to three days, we visit Jerusalem, the sea and the villages their grandparents fled in 1948. The children stay with families who are Palestinian citizens of Israel. They document their experiences with cameras and create exhibits in order to contribute to the collective memory in the refugee camp and to share their stories with people abroad.

    This experience is nearly impossible for most Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, who receive identity cards at age 16 which Israel uses to control their movement. As internationals we are able to move with relative freedom and so, unlike the children’s parents and grandparents, we can take them on this trip.

    In January-February 2008, Birthright Re-Plugged ran workshops for Palestinian children in refugee camps in Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria, and incorporated their photography and writing about their experiences and their family histories into our exhibitions.

    Birthright Unplugged has three exhibits of photography by children in living in refugee camps in the West Bank, Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria that are available to tour. To find out more: BRUP Exhibit Requirements (pdf file)

    Remember all of this Palestine Solidarity Campaign type antisemitism is being offered to these young people using the idea of “left” and “socialism”

    The site was
    http://www.youngjewishandleft.org/people_iframe.html

  366. It was
    http://www.youngjewishandleft.org/people_iframe.html

    So as far as I am concerned this is a very big problem, the word “left” and the word “socialism” is being used to lead Jewish children into antisemitism

    If that is not evil, given the history of the Jewish people, then nothing is evil.

    There is a vacumn, there really is a vacumn, in the education of children and youth

    It has the same motivation behind it as had Moshe Dayan rejecting the Temple and therefore rejecting Judaism.

  367. Eliyahu says:

    Incog, you think you know what the interests of the US are. They are rational and can be derived from reason, you seem to think. But I suggest that we take a different definition of interests. That is, the interest of a state –not necessarily of the people living in that state– is what the state does and does repeatedly. What it takes an interest in, so to speak. So if the US tries over and over to hand Lebanon to Syria, then that is a US interest. That is, Syria ruling Lebanon is a US interest. You may find that irrational or immoral or unjust. You may think that such a policy/interest is opposed to the highest, the paramount interests of the American people which may be to have Lebanon as independent and under a democratic regime ruled by Lebanese, not by Syrians or Iranians, surely not by the Assad dictatorship.

    But if the State Dept and White House and other foreign policy organs of the US govt repeatedly try to give Lebanon to Syria, then that is the US govt’s interest, however wrong or harmful to the US you may believe it to be.

  368. Daniel Bielak says:

    Felix,

    I suffer from, and am disabled by, severe OCD which is very painful to me and which makes it very painful for me to do actions (I feel that my actions are causing metaphysical harm to pepoepl) and which manipulates my actions, including writing.

    I am in a difficult personal situation because of OCD.

    Also, as part of my temperament, I am afraid of being disliked by people.

    Also, I am afraid of non-Jewish people disliking Jewish people – I am afraid of non-Jewish people causing harm to Jewish people. I feel guilty for not protecting Jewish people – from myself and from non-Jewish people who attack or who may attack Jewish people.

    I am constantly sleep deprived.

    I am socially isolated.

    I am very flawed. I have anger and sadism as part of my temperament. I also have empathy and compassion as part of my temperament.

    Felix, Jewish people are normal human beings. Jewish people – the Jewish people – are just a group of human beings – like Irish people – or like Japanese people – or like every other group of people. I just want Jewish people to be treated like normal human beings – I just want Jewish people to be treated like all other human beings – with normal human decency – by non-Jewish people – specifically by ethnically European culturally Christian-European people – especially by – specifically by – European people. As part of that, I want for Jewish people to be more mindful and to not act in ways that harm themselves – to not act in appeasing unskillfull ways. I want Jewish people to act in ways that are not harmful to themselves and I want for Jewish people to act in ways that are beneficial for themselves. More specifically, and most importantly, I want for leaders of Israel – officials of the government of Israel – to not act in ways that harm the Jewish people of Israel and I want for leaders of Israel to act in ways that are beneficial for the Jewish people of Israel. I want for leaders of Israel to protect the Jewish people of Israel.

    It is a wrong view to hold the view of seeing the world as there being a group of evil people – or there being groups of evil people – and there being a group of good people – or there being groups of good people – and holding the view that one needs to save the good people from the evil people and holding the view that one needs to save the good people from the evil people by using violence.

    Violence is never good. Causing harm to others causes harm to oneself.

    In order to protect oneself, and in order to protect others, one needs to do skillful non-violent actions. Specifically, and particularly in the case of Jewish people, in order to protect oneself and in order to protect others one needs to communicate skillfully – one needs to communicate honestly, accurately, clearly, effectively – one needs to communicate beneficially.

    It is good for people to – it is good for one to – strive to avoid doing evil oneself, and to strive to do what is good – strive to cultivate good – and to cleanse one’s own mind.

  369. incognito says:

    Eliyahu,

    I think it is you who are are somewhat confused.

    Incog, you think you know what the interests of the US are. They are rational and can be derived from reason, you seem to think.

    There are objective interests of the US as a state which normally are also in the interests of its population. One MUST use reason to figure them out. If you give that up, we’re grinding water.

    However, they should not be confused with the PERCEIVED interests by the elite, or by the population. Those can and often do deviate from the objective ones, either due to conflicts, or due to poor knowledge or ability to reason. And those deviations can cost dearly, all the way to decline and decay.

    I am not confusing them, you are: you seem to be saying that the elites’ perceived interests ARE the objective interests. And because of that you contradict yourself: otoh you admit that the US has tried this in the past and every time it failed and paid heavily. Could that happen if the two interests were one and the same? And if the price is US loss of power and influence, can that be its interest just because its elites do and think what they do?

    I have not denied that the US elites WANT to hand Lebanon to Iran and Syria because they perceive that to be in the US interest — that’s what appeasement of thugs policies have always been. What I am arguing is that this perception deviates from the objective interest due to BOTH divergence (elites are obsessed with stability and greed) and lack of knowledge and ability to reason (they don’t know and understand the enemy, fail to learn from experience and delude themselves).

    You may find that irrational or immoral or unjust.

    It so happens that my specialty in polisci was rational choice theory. There are 2 types of rationality which people usually confuse: of goals and of means. Your “morality and justice” refer to the former. I am using the latter: the policy is irrational because it will not achieve what the elites think it will achieve, but just the opposite.

  370. E.G. says:

    incognito and Eliyahu,

    Read this?

    Israel is on the front lines in America’s clash of ideologies
    The major difference between Netanyahu-Clinton and Netanyahu-Obama is an ideological one; with Obama, Israel sits at the fault line of the animosity between the Democrats and Republicans.

    By Amiel Ungar
    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/israel-is-on-the-front-lines-in-america-s-clash-of-ideologies-1.315402

  371. incognito says:

    e.g.,

    Yes. Trivial.

  372. incognito says:

    Eliyahu,

    I recommend you read Smith’s interview with Aumann for some theoretical backing for my position.

  373. Daniel

    I am touched by your situation.

    Just keep plugging away at what you are doing, writing for blogs, emphasising the need to understand history truthfully and keep in touch with my site if you can

  374. sshender says:

    A new GUI? Come on!!!! This blog needs new posts, not makeovers….

    Signed: A seriously upset reader

  375. Daniel Bielak says:

    Felix,

    Thank you for your kind words of support to me. Your kind words are a support to me.

  376. Daniel Bielak says:

    I like the new user interface layout of the site (I like the new user interface layout of the links on the site that are on the header of (that are at the top part of) the site), and I like the new site header image of the site.

    However, I would like – I think that it may be good for the site to have – the following things (which were present in the old layout of the site).

    O Smaller text font of the text of blog posts and of comments – so that more text fits in those text areas

    O Comment numbers

  377. Daniel Bielak says:

    E.G.,

    In previous comments that I posted on this post, I did not express well – I did not express fully – my understanding of the mindset of Jewish people to whom you have applied what I think is the accurate label “Alter-Jew”. The following is a more accurate expression of my understanding of the mindset of Jewish people to whom you have applied what I think is the accurate label “Alter-Jew”. (I do, in fact, as I wrote in a previous comment on this post, agree with what you have written about the mindset of Jewish people to whom you have applied what I think is the accurate label “Alter-Jew”. Also, although I think that the term “Alter-Jew” is accurate, I think that the term “Alter-Jew” may not be a properly effective term because the term “Alter-Jew” could be wrongly heard by many people as being “Altar-Jew” – and, in being wrongly so heard, would thereby convey a wrong meaning to those people. I think that the term “Alterna-Jew” may be a more properly effective term – but maybe not, because the term “Alterna-Jew” does not convey one of the meanings that the term “Alter-Jew” conveys, and because the term “Alterna-Jew”, unlike the term “Alter-Jew”, does not convey a suffiently negative meaning.)

    The Alter-Jewish (Alterna-Jewish) Mindset – The mindset of Jewish people who attack beseiged Jewish people

    A Jewish person who has severely succumbed to the Stockholm Syndrome that very many Jewish people experience, and that, I think that, especially very many ethnically Jewish-European Jewish people experience, and who, in combination with that, holds a very egocentric self-view which involves holding a culturally chauvinistic self-view that is promoted by some aspects of Jewish culture which are aspects of Jewish culture that involve the culturally chauvanistic aspects of the traditional religion of the Jewish people, thinks to himself or herself that it is Jewish people’s fault that the non-Jewish people who hate Jewish people and who are physically and verbally attacking Jewish people, and who, as part of that, are falsely accusing Jewish people of having commited crimes, and falsely accusing Jewish people of commiting crimes, and falsely claiming that they are attacking Jewish people as a just punishment against Jewish people as a punishment for the crimes that those non-Jewish people are wrongly and falsely accusing Jewish people of having committed, and for the crimes that those non-Jewish people are false accusing Jewish people of committing. That person thinks that because of the following reasons.

    O In thinking that, that person thinks that Jewish people – the group who they themselves are a member of – have the power to make those non-Jewish people stop hating Jewish people, and stop attacking Jewish people – and, as part of that, have the power to make those non-Jewish people stop hating himself or herself, and stop attacking himself or herself – by confessing to the crimes that those non-Jewish people are accusing Jewish people of having committed and of commiting, and by doing actions that those non-Jewish people who are attacking Jewish people are demanding that Jewish do, and by thinking that, that person feels relief from feeling the distress of feeling powerless to make himself of herself, and other Jewish people, not be hated and not be endangered.

    O In thinking that, that person thinks to himself or herself “I am so very noble – I am superior – because self-criticism is noble and because I am “self-criticizing”; and I am superiorly Jewish because to “self-criticize” is to be superiorly Jewish because self-criticism, which is noble, is one of the main aspects of Jewish culture, and because I am “self-criticizing”; and I am superior because being superiorly Jewish is noble” – and that person thinks that when it is in fact the case that that person is not engaging in self-criticism but is, in fact, falsely accusing other Jewish people of crimes – and in thinking that, that person holds the view that he or she is superior to other people, and holding that view feels pleasant to that person, and that person fears not holding that view.

    O In thinking that, that person turns the distress that they feel as a result of feeling hated and endangered by the non-Jewish people who are attacking and falsely accusing Jewish people, into anger, and that person directs that anger, and the anger that they feel as a result of feeling hated and endangered by the non-Jewish people who are attacking and falsely accusing Jewish people, away from being felt toward those non-Jewish people and toward Jewish people who are being physically and verbally attacked by those non-Jeiwsh people, and who are, as part of that, being falsely accused of crimes by those non-Jewish people. That person does so because that person feels deep profound fear toward non-Jewish people and because that person feels no fear at all toward Jewish people, and by feeling anger toward Jewish people that person feels relief from feeling distress, and from feeling fear, by feeling anger instead, and, in feeling anger towards Jewish people, that person verbally attacks Jewish people who are being physically and verbally attacked by those non-Jewish people and who are trying to physically and verbally defend themselves against those non-Jewish people, because by doing so, that person feels relief by expressing anger that he or she feels, and because that person thinks that by doing so he or she will cause the non-Jewish people who are attacking Jewish people to not hate himself or herself, and to not attack himself or herself.

    O In the case when that person percieves that there are non-Jewish people who are suffering, whose suffering the non-Jewish poeple who are attacking Jewish people are accusing Jewish people of causing, and who may include non-Jewish people who are attacking and accusing Jewish people, that person, like most Jewish people who perceive that there are those non-Jewish people who are suffering and who perceive the suffering of those non-Jewish people who may be attacking and accusing Jewish people, feels compassion for those non-Jewish people who are suffering and who may be attacking and accusing Jewish people, and, unlike Jewish people who feel compassion fo those non-Jewish who are suffering and who may be attacking and accusing Jewish people, the compassion that that person feels toward those non-Jewish people who are suffering, and who may be attacking and accusing Jewish people, strenghtens the wrong view that that person is holding that is the wrong view that the views that he or she holds are right.

    This detrimental mindset involves, and is constituted by, the following factors.

    O Ignorance (of one’s own mind, and of facts of events in the world)
    O Fear
    O The holding of an egocentric wrong self-view
    O Anger
    O Empathy

    These factors constitute the following factors which constitute this detrimental mindset.

    O Delusion
    O Malice
    O Sanctimony

    Expreiencing this detrimental mindset causes one who is experiencing this detrimental mindset to hold extremely evil wrong views and causes one who is experiencing this detrimental mindset to do extremely harmful wrong actions. Experiencing this detrimental mindset causes one who is Jewish to verbally attack beseiged Jewish people, and to, as part of that, falsely accuse beseiged Jewish people of crimes which the non-Jewish people who are physically and verbally attacking Jewish people are falsely accusing Jewish people of committing and of having committed.

    This mindset – the Alter-Jewish (alterna-Jewish) mindset – is an accutely malignant form of the form Stockholm syndrome that very many Jewish people experience – Jewish beseigement syndrome. This mindset, and all other forms of Jewish beseigement syndrome, are lethal to the Jewish people.

    The Remedy and Antidote – The remedy to this mindset and to all other forms of Jewish beseigement syndrome, and the antidote to the lethal effects of this mindset and to the lethal effects of all other forms of Jewish beseigement syndrome

    The remedy to this mindset and to all other forms of Jewish beseigement syndrome, and the antidote to the lethal effects of this mindset and to the lethal effects of all other forms of Jewish beseigement syndrome, is for beseiged Jewish people to be informed of the factual history and current reality of the situation that they are in, and is for beseiged Jewish people to be mindful, and is for beseiged Jewish people to be aware of the factual history and current reality of the situation that they are in, and to honestly, accurately, clearly, effectively communicate, with words and with images, the factual history and current reality of the situation that they are in to the world.

  378. Daniel Bielak says:

    Spelling Correction:

    I wrote,

    “…beseige…”

    which should be,

    “…besiege…”

    Correction:

    I wrote,

    “…unlike Jewish people who feel compassion fo those non-Jewish who are suffering and who may be attacking and accusing Jewish people…”

    which should be,

    “…unlike other Jewish people who feel compassion for those non-Jewish people who are suffering and who may be attacking and accusing Jewish people…”

  379. E.G. says:

    Daniel,

    Some time ago I posted a paper about the obsession of some, conventionally labeled “Left”, with/about purity. It’s about clesoul, conscience, hands

  380. E.G. says:

    Oops, I did something wrong… and there (above) is an incomplete, strange reply.
    Sorry, will try to do better later on.

  381. Cynic says:

    E.G.,

    What happened that you will only correct your “Oops” later on?

    By the way just discovered that Stephen Fry is part of the As-a Jew crowd JfJfP. You know, the crowd which has organised another blockade busting ship which left a port in Northern Cypress; yes, that part of Cypress that the Turks Occupied.
    Stephen Fry in a Stir – The strange double standards of the Israel- and Pope-bashing “intelligentsia”

    Some (admittedly by no means all) of its members – like Mr Fry himself – have tenuous links to Judaism, and some are “non-Jewish Jews” in Deutscher’s sense.

  382. incognito says:

    Some (admittedly by no means all) of its members – like Mr Fry himself – have tenuous links to Judaism, and some are “non-Jewish Jews” in Deutscher’s sense.

    Those are the worst, because they hate the possibility that the jewishness they convinced themselves so hard they’re unrelated to will be associated with them by anti-semites.

  383. incognito says:

    Two Decades of the Rushdie Rules
    by Daniel Pipes
    http://www.danielpipes.org/8913/two-decades-rushdie-rules

  384. E.G. says:

    Cynic,

    I was trying to correct “clesoul” into clean soul etc. and off it went.
    Advice: don’t press the Cypress !

    I still think these Fry nuts have a problem of constantly feeling stained. Part of the stain seems to be “regular” Judaism, and the rest of it has to do with Jews shedding blood. Maybe it’s got to do with the mis-translation of “thou shalt not kill murder”? Maybe they don’t really understand what survival means?

    • Cynic says:

      I think that a lot of it has been indoctrination into believing that it is their only way to be in with the “other”.
      Obsequiousness is a human trait that manifests itself when the spirit is weakened by a poor learning of one’s roots, which damages the integrity needed for a clean soul by encouraging hypocrisy and other impure behaviour.
      The dirt needs to be swept out with some appliance
      Another factor is the upbringing that these people have had that does not instill respect and consideration as a norm which precludes them from arriving at a contextual appraisal of situations thus encouraging grovelling.

      Cypress, yes, Café Press yes, but Cypress?
      Do tell please. Is that a keyboard maneuvre? Not an on board one I take it.
      Stains, yes they become a tad ugly when the nuts are ground too fine.

      • E.G. says:

        Cypress is what you typed on September 27, 2010 at 4:02 am.

        I’ve inferred the cleanliness/purity obsession from observing the many references to these notions in their discourse. I haven’t made a formal statistical enquiry, so I may well be wrong but my impression is that they often associate moral, ethics, justice with immaculate.
        Perhaps it’s a property of any orthodoxy, religious or secular. After all, the Commies were also obsessed by the impurity of non-communist ideas, and the Nazis by the purity of race.

        • Cynic says:

          E.G.,

          I typed Cypress but not press, so I wondered why the emphasis.
          By the way have you seen this video that seems to be doing the email round:
          בילבול ביצים ?

          • E.G. says:

            This is from the last elections!
            Of course I’ve seen it, at the time.
            Omelette is still sitting with the Gamba :-^/

            Why did you type Cypress? Isn’t Occupied Cypriot Territories more accurate?

  385. sshender says:

    Here is a transcript if Howard Jacobson’s response to the BDS movement back in 2007.

    In response to an article I wrote in the independent about the boycott last month, a boycotter wrote to the paper telling me I’ve got it wrong; the boycott wasn’t about trying to gag or silence Israeli academics – it was simply about not listening to them.

    A fine distinction, I thought, but it widened this distinction the more I thought about it for not listening is an even more petulantly brutal act than silencing – a brutal act performed, not least – upon yourself. Knowingly, purposely and on principle not to listen is to wage a sort of war on your own faculties. To deny yourself, if you were a reasoning person, one of the tools with which you reason.

    The surprising part is that anyone would admit to this, for the moment you announced that you stopped listening is the moment when you’ve announced that you know once and for all what you think. That is the moment when you cease to be a scholar or a teacher. A university that won’t listen does far more damage to itself than to the university it has stopped listening to. I’m not sure where the University of Paul stands on the boycott, but it owns a nice painting by Herbert James Draper of Ulysses resisting the Sirens. As you will remember Ulysses stuffs the ears of his crew with wax and lushes himself to the mast of the ship so that they won’t be able to hear the Sirens singing. In Draper’s paintings the Sirens don’t just sing acapella on the rocks, they slide up out of the water, and climb aboard the ship, naked and wet like the Pussycat Dolls with fish tails.

    It would be nice to think that the boycotters stopped their ears out of a similar inability to trust the impulses of their virility. But I doubt it. For to fear the Sirens’ singing is to admit you cannot ever be certain of yourself. And what is extraordinary about this whole business is how certain the boycotters are about absolutely everything. It is, of course, this spectacle of unwavering certitude – a certitude one normally associates with religious or ethnic hatred where unreason battens down the mind, but makes us smell a rat.

    We are assured anti-Semitism plays no part in it; how could the boycott be anti-Semitic when so many who support it are Jewish. Friends, if only it was not the case – but it is – anti-Semitism was never yet a prerogative of non Jews. Freud noted that too long a period of study had inclined Jews towards intellectual arrogance. Well, here is something else we can be arrogant about – we even hate ourselves better than anyone else.

    As for the familiar proposition that it is not anti-Semitic to be critical of Israel, like the idea that those who want Israel closed down are being… critical. Critical – a word we associate with measured arguments, cool analysis and fine distinction. I know about critical – it’s my job. I am a critic. Being critical is when you say the book works here, doesn’t work there. Good plot, bad characterization. Enjoyed some parts, hated others. What being critical is not is saying that this is the most odious book ever written, worse than all other odious books ever written, should never have been published In the first place, must be banned and in the meantime should not be read. For that we need another word then critical.

    So when we accuse the boycotters of bigotry, when we say they must be fired by animosities they don’t declare, and perhaps don’t even realize they posses, it is because we cannot otherwise understand the inordinacy of their language: Israel which is more fascist than the fascist, More Nazi than the Nazis, practicing an apartheid that exceeds the apartheid of South Africa and Israel that is guilty of every known crime against humanity and doubtless one or two more yet disclosed. Torture, assassination, ethnic cleansing, colonization, genocide, massacre, indiscriminate slaughter, and even when it grudgingly is seen to be retaliating, retaliates disproportionately. This is no country that ever was outside Hades.

    So let them tell us, if Jew hating is not at the heart of it, what is? In what furnace of the mind was this nation, evil beyond all others, forged? And why in its pitiless, unheeding malevolence does it so closely resemble the closed cosmos of the pariah Jew as it appeared to the medieval imagination?

    But look, let them not be anti-Semites. Let them love the individual Jew as much as they hate the Jewish agglomeration. That does not at once absolve them of any crime. You can be a bad man and not hate Jews. You could be a disgrace to the profession of teaching, and not hate Jews. We need a language free of issues of religion and ethnicity to describe the intellectual crime quite simply of picking on one nation state and loathing it above all others, and against all reason. Of simplifying history to fit a narrative that flatters your ideology of victim and oppressor. Of imposing a Manichaean view of good and evil on events that defy such a categorization, and can only be inflamed by it, and of shutting down every ingress of intelligence through which the arguments of those who think differently to you, or simply want to converse with you about it, can be heard.

    In the end, this is not about Israel or the Jews at all, it’s about the way we practice thought in this country. It is about the idea we have of a university – what constitutes the free play of ideas. It is about the closing of the English mind. The boycott is our Dunciad: “Thy hand, great Anarch! Lets the curtain fall. And universal Darkness covers all”.

  386. Daniel Bielak says:

    I think that there is a reason that a Jewish person such one whose is on of those Jewish people think the way they do – think what they think (that it is Jewish people’s fault that Jewish people are being physically and verbally attacked by, and, as part of that, accused by, non-Jewish people) – that is a reason that I did not mention in my previous comment about the Alter-Jewish mindset.

    O That person thinks that it is Jewish people’s fault that those non-Jewish people are physically and verbally attacking, and, as part of that, accusing Jewish people crimes for which those non-Jewish people are claiming to be physically and verbally attacking Jewish people as a just punishment and as just retaliation, because that person non-consciously thinks “It is Jewish people fault that non-Jewish people hate Jewish people because Jewish people think that they are superior to non-Jewish people” because that person thinks that Jewish people think that Jewish people think that they are superior to non-Jewish people, because there are chauvinistic aspects of the traditional religion of the Jewish people, which, is in some ways, are aspects that are a part of Jewish culture in general – and which, in fact, are chauvinistic aspects of Jewish culture that have been reinforced by the obscenely immoral, truly evil, malicious vicious way that the non-Jewish people amongst whom Jewish people have lived for several thousand years have treated Jewish people. By thinking that, that person is holding wrong views that are actually themselves aspects of the chauvinistic views that are aspects of Jewish culture which are chauvinistic views which view Jewish people as needing to be held to higher standards of behavior than do non-Jewish people need to be held to, and by thinking that, that person feels that Jewish people deserve to be attacked by the non-Jewish people who are attacking them, and by thinking that, that person feels relief from feeling the distress of perceiving the wrongness of the the physical and verbal attacking of, and, as part of that, the false accusing of, Jewish people by the non-Jewish people who are physically and verbally attacking, and, as part of that, falsely accusing, Jewish people.

  387. Daniel Bielak says:

    E.G.,

    I wrote my previous comment has to to with what you brought up and wrote about in your reply to me – the concept of “purity of soul” – “cleanliness of soul ” – the view that is held by those Jewish people (and a similar view that is held by non-Jewish members of what is conventionally called the political Left) the which is their holding the view that they need to have, and that they have, what they wrongly view as being “purity of soul” – “cleanliness of soul”.

    I think that, in my previous comment, I may not have quite rightly articulated what I think is the case, and I think that, in my previous comment, I may not have quite rightly articulated what is the case, but I think that, in my previous comment, I articulated somewhat accurately – somewhat correctly – somewhat rightly – what is the case, and I think that you, and other people who may have read what I wrote in my previous comment, may understand what I meant by what – with what – in what – I wrote in my previous comment.

    That chauvinistic Jewish view is similar to the chauvinistic Leftist view.

  388. Daniel Bielak says:

    I meant the following in what I wrote in the last line of my previous comment.

    The chauvinistic “purity of soul” – “cleanliness of soul” – view that is held by those anti-Jewish anti-Israeli Jewish people is similar to the chauvinistic “purity of soul” – “cleanliness of soul” – view that is held by anti-Jewish, anti-Israeli, anti-Western, Leftist non-Jewish people. However the anti-Jewish, anti-Israeli, anti-Western Leftist non-Jewish people, unlike the anti-Jewish , anti-Israel, Jewish people, hold bigoted antipathetic wrong views mainly about, and feel antipathy mainly toward, a group of besieged wronged traumatized people (the Jewish people) to whom they themselves do not belong and who are a group of people who the members of the group of people (ethnically European culturally Christian-European (Christian and post Christian) people, and ethnically European culturally pre-Christian people) to whom they themselves do belong have been persecuting and attacking and harming for several thousand years.

    O anti-Jewish, anti-Israeli, Jewish people – Empathetic, fearful, imbecilic, egomaniacal, resultantly malicious, people
    O anti-Jewish, anti-Israeli, non-Jewish people – Vicious, sadistic, imbecilic, egomanical, resultantly malicious, people

  389. Daniel Bielak says:

    Correction:

    O anti-Jewish, anti-Israeli, Jewish people – Empathetic, fearful, deranged, imbecilic, egomaniacal, resultantly malicious, people

  390. Daniel Bielak says:

    I wrote in anger the last things that I wrote in my previous main comment and in the correction comment to that comment, and I think that those last things that I wrote may not be beneficial and may be harmful. I apologize if those last things that I wrote are not beneficial and if they may be harmful. I think that those last things that I wrote may be unbeneficial harmful harsh speech.

  391. Cynic says:

    incognito,

    Yes, in the 1940s some Jews didn’t want a Jewish state or Israel to be created cause they thought that they would be packed off to there. They knew that their “hosts” didn’t like their scent and would be only too pleased to get rid of them but little did they realise the power of the scent of petroleum in those days.

    • incognito says:

      They still don’t want to be packed there, fooling themselves that 1940 cannot happen again. The more assimilated they are, the less they want to go and they either assuage their guilt by donations/activism, or the opposite — participating in flotillas.

  392. Daniel Bielak says:

    Off-topic, in a specific sense, but on-topic in a general sense,

    “Ven. Gavesako – What is ‘personality view’ (sakkaya-ditthi)”, (Video) A Dhamma talk by Theravada Buddhist monk (bhikkhu) Ven. Gavesako Bhikkhu; The term “dhamma” (which is a Pali word; and whose equivalent word in Sanskrit is “dharma”) means “constitution” – “the nature of a thing” – and means “doctrine”, and “truth”, and literally means “bearer” (having the meaning, “that which bears the essence of a thing”). The word “Dhamma” in the term “Dhamma talk” refers to the Dhamma that was taught by the Buddha.
    http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=dhammatube#p/c/6F2B8E65B7528B3F/17/bspOKV8iosY

    • Daniel Bielak says:

      Correction (the correct expression is correct and has different meaning and is beneficial):

      I wrote,

      “The word “Dhamma” in the term “Dhamma talk” refers to the Dhamma that was taught by the Buddha.”

      which should be,

      “The word “Dhamma” in the term “Dhamma talk” refers to the Dhamma taught by the Buddha.”

  393. andrew says:

    About Lieberman’s and Netanyahou’s differences, as voiced at the UNO.
    Once a peace treaty would be signed along the current lines, the following would very likely happen within a few years: 1) under open encouragements from the Arab world, the most violent elements in the Arab population of Galilee will demonstrate and ask that they should become part of Palestine; 2) the West will immediately follow suit, on the principle of self-determination. I am convinced that this has been the Arab plan, relative to peace negociations, for years, and that it may not be totally foreign to what some parties (say, the Europeans) hope for the future. I place no confidence (remembering what happened in Kosovo) in a simple delaration (as
    currently suggested by the US) that a peace treaty would close the door to any
    new demands from either (i.e., from the Arab) party.

  394. incognito says:

    Andrew is, of course, correct.

    And here is why Israel is losing and dooming itself:

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3961736,00.html

    It’s pathetic.

    • Daniel Bielak says:

      It is not just pathetic. It is far beyond describing it as merely pathetic. Israeli leaders are, literally, insane, and are, literally, imbecilic. The situation is surreal.

      Something must be done. The voice of sanity and reason needs to be voiced. It will be heard it if is spoken correctly.

      There needs to be an effort to talk to talk to Israeli leaders and to tell Israeli leaders the factual history and current reality of the situation that Israel is in, and, as part of that, and in conjunction with that, and simultaneously with that, there needs to be an effort to tell the Israeli people the factual history and current reality of the situation that Israel is in – the factual history and current reality of the situation that they are in.

      I think that even some readers here may not truly and fully comprehend how horrificly surreal the current situation is, and may not truly and fully understand how truly, literally, insane, and how truly, litereally, imbecilic, the the leaders of Israel, and the actions of the leaders of Israel, currently are, and I think that even many readers here may not understand that all of this is stoppable and can be remedied – by the telling of the truth – the factual history and current reality of the situation – to Israeli leaders and to the people of Israel and to the whole world.

      The horrifically surreal pattern of events of the current situation is stoppable and can be remedied – by the telling of the truth – the factual history and current reality of the situation – to Israeli leaders and to the people of Israel and to the whole world.

      Words matter.

      For the well-being of the Jewish people of Israel, and for the well-being of the whole world, it is now urgently necessary to tell the truth.

      • Daniel Bielak says:

        Correction:

        I wrote,

        “It will be heard it if is spoken correctly.”

        which should be,

        “It will be heard if it is spoken correctly.”

    • Daniel Bielak says:

      Words matter.

      The telling of lies, and the non-speaking of the truth, is what has brought the situation to what it is.

      Speaking the truth is what can make the situation better.

  395. E.G.

    There is a thread on Israpundit dealing with the Israeli Ambassador leaving Ireland by a Kevin Myers.

    I have placed 2 comments there dealing a little with the Irish and emphasising the issue of leadership.

    By coincidence I had just this morning placed 15 points dealing with the history angle, I will follow tomorrow with 15 points dealing with a progreamme to save Israel.

    These will then be amplified.

    In the form of WordPress pages at the side
    http://4international.wordpress.com/fight-against-antisemitism-15-points-in-the-study-of-jewish-history/

    Basically the point I make about the irish is it is possible to hate the Irish, but that does not solve anything.

    On the matter of history I have taken some of the points of Daniel on board

    The Israpundit url is

    http://www.israpundit.com/archives/28431

    • E.G. says:

      As much as an analysis or a forecast may be correct, it does not imply that the means advanced by the analyst or the forecaster in order to deal with the phenomenon at hand, getting it closer to a goal s/he believes is an improvement, are necessarily correct or appropriate.

      Leon B. had many talents, and that’s about all I’d share with him.
      In some ways, he was a post-Jew.

    • Cynic says:

      I think your 15 points should be reinforced with references.
      I did not know about Marx’s visit to the region and it would be nice to have some documentary evidence to drive home the point.

  396. In dealing with history should we follow the British school or this school

    Official morality is a bridle to restrain the oppressed. In the course of the struggle the working class has elaborated its own revolutionary morality, which began by dethroning God and all absolute standards. But we understand by honesty a conformity of words and deeds before the working class, checked by the supreme end of the movement and of our struggle: the liberation of humanity through the social revolution. For instance, we do not say that one must not deceive and be cunning, that one must love one’s enemies, etc., for such exalted morality is evidently only accessible to such deeply religious statesmen as Lord Curzon [4], Lord Northcliffe [5], and Mr. Henderson. We hate or despise our enemies, according to their deserts; we beat them and deceive according to circumstances, and, even when we come to an understanding with them, we are not swept off our feet by a wave of forgiving love. But we firmly believe that one must not lie to the masses and that one must not deceive them with regard to the aims and methods of their own struggle

    http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/britain/v1/ch01d.htm

    I go for that method, and not the “British method”, that is do not lie to the Israeli people, tell the Israeli people EVERYTHING about the Stuxnet worm and how the wonderful Jewish people have created a piece of software that is gnawing so persistently into the addled by conspiracy brain of the dwarf Ahmadinejad

  397. incognito says:

    Eliyahu,

    The left-right factor does matter, in the way that I argued:

    http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2010/09/027335.php

    • Cynic says:

      He, of Powerline, doesn’t seem to get it.
      the seemingly odd alliance between radical Muslims and left-over leftists
      They’re all flour from the same sack. Fascists! They’re all of the same psychopathology. Whether today’s leftists, Husseini, Hitler, Osama they all had/have the same objective: power and total control.
      They cannot let somebody with a different mindset go his own way. It is “offensive” psychologically and humiliating if permitted.
      For the moment the leftists are the Muslims “useful idiots” but when the time comes they too will suddenly not form part of that “alliance”. For the moment they are “the enemy of my enemy”.

      After an hour-and-a-half of speeches from 22 individuals, President Ahmadinejad then addressed the guests for approximately forty-five minutes. His remarks touched on the international struggle for peace and justice saying that “trying to build peace is the most important and comprehensive struggle that mankind can have.”

      What hypocrisy given his treatment of his own Persians, and of course the useful idiots bought into it.

  398. incognito says:

    One of the best explanations on the topic of this thread and something that I have been constantly arguing, including above in this thread:

    [MUST READ]
    Fear and Survival: The Tragedy And Threat That Is George Soros
    http://rubinreports.blogspot.com/2010/09/fear-and-survival-tragedy-and-threat.html

  399. EG You write 2 paragraphs

    As much as an analysis or a forecast may be correct, it does not imply that the means advanced by the analyst or the forecaster in order to deal with the phenomenon at hand, getting it closer to a goal s/he believes is an improvement, are necessarily correct or appropriate.

    Leon B. had many talents, and that’s about all I’d share with him.
    In some ways, he was a post-Jew.

    Unfortunately your first paragraph is not clear to me. It is better to speak in concrete terms.

    So, for example, could we talk as an example about the Iranian building of a nuclear bomb which threatens big numbers of Israelis, and perhaps many more non Jews in Southern Europe immediately, then ALL methods to stop that are called for.

    As regards whether Trotsky was a Jew or not a Jew, that is NOT what is important.

    What is important is the policies which he put forward when the Jews were under huge threat from Fascism.

    Why is this not better known and why do people like you who are in positions of influence not seek to tell the truth about this?

    • E.G. says:

      Analysis is one thing, setting goals upon one is another, and finding the means to achieve those goals is yet another thing.
      A good basis (analysis) does not guarantee that the other 2 “things” are good (i.e., correct, adequate).
      Indeed, I don’t think that all methods to stop the Iranian bomb are adequate.

      What are the policies Mr. T. put forward to save the Jews?

      Last but not least: how do you know of my position? What makes you think it’s influential?

  400. Cynnic

    While there are many aspects of nathan Weinstock I do not agree with, especially his assertions that there is a “Palestinian nationalism”, (I believe that this is nothing more than an Arab form of antisemitism) he did cover the visit of Marx to Jerusalem.

    The point that I make in

    http://4international.wordpress.com/2008/11/14/in-1954-karl-marx-wrote-about-jews-in-majority-in-jerusalem/

    is that Marx acted in an empirical fashion, and simply reported truthfully what he saw.

    Thank you for looking at the points made in that page, but they are meant as a skeleton, onto which I plan to build a body of work, and try to force the pace to do this with some urgency.

    By the way I am mystified why this visit of Marx to Jerusalem has been steadfastly ignored by all Jewish groups that I know of, you would think that it would be number one item in fighting against the SWp et al who afflict the Jewish people so much at present.

    And it is not hard to find either that Karl Marx in his writings mid-century had dealt rather well with the issue of Islam

    “The Koran and the Mussulman legislation emanating from it reduce the geography and ethnography of the various people to the simple and convenient distinction of two nations and of two countries; those of the Faithful and of the Infidels. The Infidel is “harby,” i.e. the enemy. Islamism proscribes the nation of the Infidels, constituting a state of permanent hostility between the Mussulman and the unbeliever. In that sense the corsair-ships of the Berber States were the holy fleet of Islam.”

    http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1854/03/28.htm

    You will never find Robert Spencer, pamela Geller or other important writers on Islam today refer to this.

    The reason is that they know of it but decide to exclude it for ideologicakl reasons.

  401. incognito says:

    More on topic and the pertinence of the left-right factor:

    Miliband Family Values
    By David Pryce-Jones
    http://www.nationalreview.com/david-pryce-jones/248315/miliband-family-values

  402. Daniel Bielak says:

    Felix,

    The following is my understanding of Marxism.

    Marxism – the ideology developed by Karl Marx

    Marxism is the name of the ideology that was developed and propagated by Karl Marx. Karl Marx was an ethnically Jewish-German man who lived in the 1800′s and who was the son of an ethnically Jewish-German man who converted to Christianity. The ideology that Karl Marx developed and propagated can be accurately expressed as the following.

    “There exists in the world a small group of malevolent ignoble people in the world who are the cause of the suffering of the majority of people in the world who are the good noble people in the world. For the well-being of the good noble people in the world who are the majority of people in the world, the good noble people who are the majority of people in the world need to prevent the members of the small group of malevolent ignoble people from having any influence in society, and, if necessary, from, participating in society, and, if necessary, from existing in society, and must do so by any means necessary, including murder.”

    The ideology that Karl Marx developed and propagated is structurally similar to traditional Christian-European anti-Jewish bigotry, and the ideology that Karl Marx developed and propagated is explicitly anti-Jewish. Karl Marx, in his writings of his ideology, and in his personal writings to his friend and colleague Friedrich Engels, explicitely refered to the culture of the Jewish people as being a culture of greed and usury, and refered to the culture of the Jewish people as being the most evil ignoble culture in the world, and refered to Jewish people as being the most malevolent ignoble people in the world, and explicitely refered to individual Jewish people by using malicious racist epithets.

    The ideology of Karl Marx is an inherently anti-Jewish ideology that is a set of wrong views that is a perverse derivation of the principals that are the main, and most beneficial aspects of Jewish culture, which are the principals of egalitarianism and aversion to injustice.

    In the late 1800′s and in the early 1900′s many Jewish people became adherents and proponents of the ideology of Karl Marx and many Jewish people became members and leaders of the political movements that were based on the ideology of Karl Marx – the political movements called Socialism, Bolshevism, Communism, etc. Those Jewish people were attracted to those political movements because those Jewish people viewed those political movements as being agents that promoted, and that would establish, egalitarianism, and that promoted, and that would establish, opposition to injustice, in the culturally Christian-European societies where those Jewish people lived, and those political movements appealed to the anger that those Jewish people felt toward the governing classes of Christian-European society whose members had been persecuting and oppressing Jewish people for many centuries, and those Jewish people viewed those political movements, in being joined by those Jewish people, as being a way for themselves to become accepted as fellow human beings by the non-Jewish ethnically European culturally Christian-European (post-Christian) people among whom they lived, in the society of those ethnically European culturally Christian-European people. Those Jewish people did not see the wrongness of the totalitarian nature of the ideology of Karl Marx, and those Jewish people did not see the wrongness of the totalitarian nature of the political movements that were based on the ideology of Karl Marx, and many of those Jewish people non-consciously overlooked the inherent anti-Jewish nature of the ideology of Karl Marx, and most of those Jewish people, in accordance with most of those ideologies that were based on the ideology of Karl Marx, became fervent opposers of the existence of the Jewish people as being a group of people, and some of those Jewish people, as leaders and members of those political movements and as members of the Communist regime of Russia, which was a regime whose political ideology was based on the ideology of Karl Marx, became fervent persecutors of Jewish people who identified themselves as being members of the Jewish people and who defended the right of Jewish people to exist as a group of people.

    Karl Marx, like Theobald of Cambridge, and like Paul of Tarsus, was a Jewish Jew-Hater, and the ideology that Karl Marx developed and propagated, like the ideology that Paul of Tarsus developed and propagated – Christianity – which is the ideology that Theobald of Cambridge adhered to and propagated, is an inherently anti-Jewish ideology that is a set of wrong views that is a perverse derivation of the principals that are the main, and most beneficical, aspects of Jewish culture, which are the principals of egalitarianism and aversion to injustice.

    The ideology of Karl Marx – the ideology that Karl Marx developed – is a totalitarian ideology and is a supremacist ideology.

    The ideology of Karl Marx – the ideology that Karl Marx developed – is a set of wrong views.

    Explicitely Anti-Jewish Writings, and Other Explicitely Racist Writings, by Karl Marx

    The following are some explicitly anti-Jewish, and other explicitely racist, excerpts of writings that Karl Marx wrote. The following excerpts are listed on the web site “Marx & Friends in their own words” by John Jay Ray (http://marxwords.blogspot.com). Although I disagree with some of the views that John Jay Ray holds, I completely agree with the views that John Jay Ray holds about Karl Marx and about the ideology that Karl Marx developed and propagated – Marxism – and about the political ideologies and political movements that are based on the ideology of Karl Marx – the political ideologies and political movements Socialism, Communism, etc.

    In “On the Jewish Question”, originally published in 1844, Karl Marx wrote the following.

    “What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money….Money is the jealous god of Israel, in face of which no other god may exist. Money degrades all the gods of man – and turns them into commodities…. The bill of exchange is the real god of the Jew. His god is only an illusory bill of exchange…. The chimerical nationality of the Jew is the nationality of the merchant, of the man of money in general.”

    In “The Russian Loan,” published in the New-York Daily Tribune on January 4, 1856, Karl Marx wrote the following.

    “Thus we find every tyrant backed by a Jew, as is every pope by a Jesuit. In truth, the cravings of oppressors would be hopeless, and the practicability of war out of the question, if there were not an army of Jesuits to smother thought and a handful of Jews to ransack pockets.

    …the real work is done by the Jews, and can only be done by them, as they monopolize the machinery of the loanmongering mysteries by concentrating their energies upon the barter trade in securities… Here and there and everywhere that a little capital courts investment, there is ever one of these little Jews ready to make a little suggestion or place a little bit of a loan. The smartest highwayman in the Abruzzi is not better posted up about the locale of the hard cash in a traveler’s valise or pocket than those Jews about any loose capital in the hands of a trader…The language spoken smells strongly of Babel, and the perfume which otherwise pervades the place is by no means of a choice kind.

    …Thus do these loans, which are a curse to the people, a ruin to the holders, and a danger to the governments, become a blessing to the houses of the children of Judah. This Jew organization of loan-mongers is as dangerous to the people as the aristocratic organization of landowners…The fortunes amassed by these loan-mongers are immense, but the wrongs and sufferings thus entailed on the people and the encouragement thus afforded to their oppressors still remain to be told.

    …The fact that 1855 years ago Christ drove the Jewish moneychangers out of the temple, and that the moneychangers of our age enlisted on the side of tyranny happen again chiefly to be Jews, is perhaps no more than a historical coincidence. The loan-mongering Jews of Europe do only on a larger and more obnoxious scale what many others do on one smaller and less significant. But it is only because the Jews are so strong that it is timely and expedient to expose and stigmatize their organization.”

    In other articles Karl Marx wrote the following.

    “What is the worldly raison d’etre of Jewry [Judaism]? The practical necessity of Jewry is self-interest.”

    “What is the worldly religion of the Jews? It is the petty haggling of the hawker.”

    “What is his worldly God?” “It is money.”

    “So in Jewry we recognise a contemporary universal anti-social phenomenon, which has reached its present pitch through a process of, historical development in which the Jews have zealously co-operated. And this evil anti-social aspect of Jewry has grown to a stage at which: it must necessarily collapse.”

    “The Jews have emancipated themselves in a Jewish fashion. Not only have they mastered the; power of money but – with or without the Jews – money has become a world power. The Jews have emancipated themselves by turning Christians into Jews:”

    “Money is the most zealous God of Israel and no other God can compete with him. Money debases all human Gods and turns them into goods. Money is the universal value of everything.”

    “The God of the Jews has become secularised and bas become a World God. The bill of exchange is the real God of the Jews.”

    “Jewry reaches its climax in the consummation of bourgeois society – and bourgeois society has reached its highest point in the Christian world.”

    In a letter to Freidreich Engels in 1962, Karl Marx wrote the following about Ferdinand Lassalle, a Jewish man from Breslau in Silesia who, as a young man, had led the workers of Dueselldorf during the revolt of 1848, and who had been imprisoned for doing so, and who, in 1962, was a guest of Karl Marx in London, and who, at that time, in 1962, expressed views that he held which were different than those that Karl Marx Held.

    “It is now perfectly clear to me that, as the shape of his head and the growth of his hair indicate, he is descended from the negroes who joined in the flight of Moses from Egypt (unless his mother or grandmother on the father’s side was crossed with a nigger). Now this union of Jewishness to Germanness on a negro basis was bound to produce an extraordinary hybrid. The importunity of the fellow is also niggerlike.”

    In an article in the New York Tribune, 4 January 1856, Karl Marx wrote the following.

    “This loan is brought out under the auspices of the house of Stieglitz at St Petersburg. Stieglitz is to Alexander what Rothschild is to Francis Joseph, what Fould is to Louis Napoleon. The late Czar Nicholas made Stieglitz a Russian baron, as the late Kaiser Franz made old Rothschild an Austrian baron, while Louis Napoleon has made a cabinet minister of Fould, with a free ticket to the Tuileries for the females of his family. Thus we find every tyrant backed by a Jew. as is every Pope by a Jesuit. In truth, the cravings of oppressors would be hopeless, and the practicability of war out of the question, if there were not an army of Jesuits to smother thought and a handful of Jews to ransack pockets.

    …the Hopes lend only the prestige of their name; the real work is done by Jews, and can only be done by them as they monopolise the machinery of the loan-mongering mysteries by concentrating their energies upon the barter-trade in securities, and the changing of money and negotiating of bills in a great measure arising there from.

    Take Amsterdam for instance, a city harbouring many of the worst descendants of the Jews whom Ferdinand and Isabella drove out of Spain, and who, after lingering a while in Portugal, were driven thence also, and eventually found a safe place of retreat in Holland. In Amsterdam alone they number not less: than 35,000, many of whom are engaged in this gambling and jobbing of securities… Their business is to watch the monies available for investment and keenly observe where they lie. Here and there and everywhere that a little capital courts investment there is ever one of these little Jews ready to make a little suggestion or place a little bit of a loan. The smartest highwayman in the Abruzzi is not better posted about the locale of the hard cash in a traveller’s valise or pocket, than those Jews about any loose capital in the hands of a trader.

    …the loan mongering Jews derive much of their strength from these family relations, as these, in addition to their lucre affinities, give a compactness and unity to their operations which ensure their success.

    …This Eastern war is destined at all events to throw some light upon this system of loan-mongering as well as other systems. Meanwhile the Czar will get his fifty millions and let the English journals say what they please, if he wants five fifties more, the Jews will dig them up. Let us not be thought too severe upon these loan-mongering gentry. The fact that 1855 years ago Christ drove the Jewish money-changers out of the temple, and that the money-changers of our age enlisted on the side of tyranny happen again chiefly to be Jews, is perhaps no more than a historical coincidence.

    …The loan-mongering Jews of Europe do only on a larger and more obnoxious scale what many others do on one smaller and less significant. But it is only because the Jews are so strong that it is timely and expedient to expose and stigmatise their organisation.”

    Karl Marx referred to both the father and son of the wealthy banking Jewish Bamberger family from which he borrowed money as “Jew Bamberger” or “little Jew Bamberger.”

    On the web site “Marx & Friends in their own words” John Jay Ray writes the following.

    “In 1845, in The Holy Family, Marx claimed that in his articles in the Deutsch-Franzoesische Jahrbuecher he had ‘proved that the task of abolishing the essence of Jewry is in truth the task of abolishing Jewry in civil society, abolishing the inhumanity of today’s practice of life, the summit of which is the money system.’

    In 1849 an article in the Neue Rheinische Zeitung (of which Marx was the editor) criticised the notion that Jews living in Prussia’s Polish provinces should be regarded as Germans. The article declared that these Jews were ‘the filthiest of all races.’ ‘Neither by speech nor by descent – but only by their greed for profit – can they be looked upon as relatives of the Germans in Frankfurt.’

    …[Marx] wrote to Engel’s in 1875 that he had got into conversation with ‘a sly looking Yid’ on a journey from London to Rotterdam. He was clearly delighted to be able to report that his loquacious Jewish travelling companion had been the victim of some sharp practice in a business deal. And in his old age when on holiday in Ramsgate, Marx declared that there were ‘many Jews and fleas’ at the resort.”

  403. incognito says:

    More collapse:

    Obama Administration Tells Israel: Make Us Look Good For Election and We Will Reward You (A Little Bit)
    http://rubinreports.blogspot.com/2010/10/obama-administration-tells-israel-make.html

    Why Is He Sending Them?
    Charles Krauthammer
    http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/248433/why-he-sending-them-charles-krauthammer

    ‘Obama’s Wars’: The gang that couldn’t shoot straight — or shut up
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/29/AR2010092905607.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

    • Cynic says:

      Collapse? Yes, but look where it started:
      The FBI is hosting some bad actors.

      Clearly, Abudayyeh is very concerned about such matters. That’s why, for example, he strenuously objected in a 2006 interview to the American description of “Hamas, Hezbollah, and the other Palestinian and Lebanese resistance organizations as ‘terrorists.’” Instead, “the real terrorists are the governments and military forces of the U.S. and Israel.”

      Sounds like an ideal “outreach” partner, no?

      By the way, it is sentiments like those that landed Abudayyeh at the Arab-American Action Network, where he is currently executive director. Why does that get you a White House briefing? Well, it probably helps that the AAAN was founded by President Obama’s good friends Mona and Rashid Khalidi. That would be the Columbia professor Rashid Khalidi, the guy who used to be Yasser Arafat’s mouthpiece.

      Did I mention that the AAAN got started with seed money from the far-left Woods Foundation — whose board members at the time included former Weather Underground terrorist Bill Ayers and his friend, a Chicago community organizer turned pol named Barack Obama?

      There’s nothing like outreach.

      Seems like the worms got to the core and have now tampered with the seeds. So it is to be expected that taquiya now emanates from the Whitehouse as well.

  404. Incognito

    Your reference to the article on the Milibands by David Pryce-Jones

    It is important now to find out who this man Ralph Miliband was but going on your total opposition to entertain any discussion on the issues of Social Democracy, Stalinism and Trotskyism, likewise as far as I can see siomilar in E.G., then this is not possible here anyway.

    The genius of the Jewish people have developed a piece of software called the “Stuxnet Worm” and I hailed this on my website. I saw what you wrote Incognito. You referred to it as a “circumsized worm”. You think this is funny eh? I do not. I see this sort of smart assery on every antisemitic site in the world, eg indymedia.

    I really do not intend to lower my standards of life by writing on the same site as you. If you crop up somewhere under another name somewhere perhaps you can let me know

  405. incognito says:

    e.g.

    see what i mean?

  406. incognito says:

    I really do not intend to lower my standards of life by writing on the same site as you.

    Great. Since I was here first, why don’t you go away.

  407. incognito says:

    Includes some comments about self-hating jews:

    CNN’s Rick Sanchez Loses Job Over Antisemitism But Reveals The Secret of Its Resurgence
    http://rubinreports.blogspot.com/2010/10/cnns-rick-sanchez-loses-job-over.html

  408. E.G. says:

    Apparently, some see Alter/Post-Jews as an existential threat to Israel:
    http://www.almasryalyoum.com/en/opinion/israel%E2%80%99s-existential-threat

    Accused of being traitors to Israel, self-hating Jews, or pawns of global anti-Semitism, these “Jews of conscience” continue to move forward unabated, expanding the horizon for mutual understanding in the exilic prophetic tradition. From the Chomskys and the Ellis’ to the Moskovitzs and the Feuers, from Waco to Winnipeg, they are the throbbing heart of a Jewish movement that speaks of their people’s outrage at the blatant dehumanization being wrought in their name and in the name of their faith and heritage. They are the Jewish Palestinians—the only true existential threat to Israel’s Zionist logic.

  409. Daniel Bielak says:

    Very good panel and conference

    David Horowitz Freedom Center – Restoration Weekend – 2009

    03 The Middle East Cauldron – November 20, 2009

    Frank Gaffney
    Michael Ledeen
    General Paul Vallely
    George Gilder
    Questions and Answers

    Israel you are not alone. There are people, not in the government, in the U.S., people who are prominent people (politically conservative prominent people) and private citizens (I think, mainly politically conservative) who understand what is happening and who care about Israel and who understand the situation in the world and the situation that the United States is in and the situation that Israel is in and and who want to make the situation better.

    Videos

    http://www.davidhorowitztv.com/restorationweekend/rw2009/274-03-the-middle-east-cauldron

  410. Daniel Bielak says:

    To clarify,

    I advocate doing only non-violent actions. I advocate not doing violent-actions.

    I advocated doing the actions that George Gilder and Michael Ledeen advocate doing towards the end of the video of the Q&A session of the conference to which I listed a link to videos of.

    Those essential actions that need to be done – which are essential non-violent actions that need to be done – can be done only by members of the government of the United States (and also by members of the governments of EUropean countries.) However those actions are not being done because, in order for those actions to be done, members of the government of Israel need to do essential actions – which are essential non-violent actoins – that only members of the government of Israel can do, and which are actions that the members of the government of Israel are not doing.

    The reason that the members of the government of the United States and the members of the governments of Euroepan countries are not doing those nessesacry actions and the reason they are doing exactly opposite actions – extremely harmful actions – is that they, and the populations of the United States, and especially, the populations of European countries (who are populations whose public opion forms the actions of the members of the government of those countries) believe an obscene perverse false untrue narrative that is made up of obscene perverse lies in which they believe – yes, they truly belive – a narrative of their being “The Evil All-Powerful Alien Jews (Israeli Jewish people)”, and their being “the Powerless Victimized Innocent Vulnerable ‘Palestinians’ (‘Palestinian’ Arab people) Who Are Being Persecuted By the Evil All-Powerfull Alien Jews (Israeli Jewish people)”, and there being “The Justifiably Enraged Muslim Noble Savage Warriors (members of violent terrorist militias of the genocidally anti-Jewish modern Islamic SUpremacist political movement) Who Are Avenging the Persecution of the Powerless Victimized Innocent Vulnerable ‘Palestinians’ by the The Evil All-Powerful Alien Jews (Israeli Jewish people)”, and there being “The Tought No-Nonsense Justifiably Angry and Indignant Leaders of Iran (the members of the genocidally anti-Jewish Islamic-SUpremacist regime of Iran) Who WIll Put the Evil All-Powerful ALien Jews in Their Place”.

    The populations of Europe and the United States and the members of the govenments of European countries and members of the government of the United States believe that obscene perverse false untrue narrative because they have been indoctrinated with those lies, with visual lies – visual lies of ommission, and blatant visual lies, and with verbal lies, verbal lies of ommision, and blatant verbal lies, by the members of the news media of Western countries, and they have been able to be indoctrinated by those lies because they are completely ignorant of the factual history and current reality of the situation and because they are utterly ignorant about the nature of the society of Israel, and, mainly in the case of the populations of Europe and the members of the governments of European countries, because they believe a narrative about the world that is a narrative that is a normal, normative part of culturally Christian-European (Christian and post-CHristian) societies, especially the societies of European countries, which is a narrative which is an obscene perverse wrong self-view in which they think “The Jews Are Evil; And (Therefore) We Are (I Am) Good.”

    The only remedy to the problem – the only way that the situation can be made better – is for the leaders of Israel – the members of the government of Israel – to become aware of the factual history and current reality of the situation and to communicate the factual history and current reality of the situation to the members of the goverment of the United States and to the mebers of the governments of European countries and to the whole world.

  411. Daniel Bielak says:

    Correction:

    I wrote,

    “I advocated doing the actions that George Gilder and Michael Ledeen advocate doing…”

    which should be,

    “I advocate doing the non-violent actions that George Gilder and Michael Ledeen advocate doing…”

  412. Daniel Bielak says:

    Correction:

    I wrote,

    «…”The Tought No-Nonsense Justifiably Angry and Indignant Leaders of Iran (the members of the genocidally anti-Jewish Islamic-SUpremacist regime of Iran) Who WIll Put the Evil All-Powerful ALien Jews in Their Place”…»

    which should be,

    «…“The Tough No-Nonsense Justifiably Angry and Indignant Leaders of Iran (the members of the genocidally anti-Jewish Islamic-Supremacist regime of Iran) Who Will Put the Evil All-Powerful Alien Jews in Their Place”…»
    </blockquote

  413. Daniel Bielak says:

    I apologize for all of my other grammatical mistakes that I made in my previous comment.

    More accurately stated, and maybe more correctly stated,

    I apologize for all of the other grammatical mistakes that I made in the previous comment that I posted.

  414. Daniel Bielak says:

    To clarify,

    General Paul Vallely is retired from the military.

    I should have specified,

    Ret. General Paul Vallely

    Or,

    General Paul Vallely (Retired)

    Also,

    The essential non-violent actions that I advocate and that I referred to as being advocated by George Gilder and Michael Ledeen were, in fact, non-violent actions that were enunciated only by Michael Ledeen.

    There are other non-violent actions that need to be done (by the government of the United States and by the governments of the countries of Europe). There is a whole set of non-violent actions that need to be done.

    First and foremost, in order for those actions to be done, the essential non-violent action that needs to be done is for the members of the government of Israel to become aware of the factual history and current reality of the situation that Israel is in – the racist, intendedly genocidal, Arab, Islamic-Supremacist, German-Nazi, and colluding Western, overt and covert, military, terroristic, diplomatic, and propagandic, continuous, currently 90 year old, ongoing war against the country of the Jewish people – and to communicate the factual history and current reality of the situation that Israel is in to the members of the government of of the United States and to the members of the governments of European countries, adn to the whole world.

    It may seem, to Israeli Jewish people and, in particular, and esppecially, to leaders of Israel, unrealistic and naive and impossible. It is neither unrealistic nor naive nor impossible. It is necessary.

    • Daniel Bielak says:

      Correction:

      I wrote,

      «…the racist, intendedly genocidal, Arab, Islamic-Supremacist, German-Nazi, and colluding Western, overt and covert, military, terroristic, diplomatic, and propagandic, continuous, currently 90 year old, ongoing war against the country of the Jewish people…»

      which should be,

      «…the racist, intendedly genocidal, Arab, Islamic-Supremacist, British, German-Nazi, Soviet, and colluding Western (U.S. State Department and U.S. CIA*; and Western academic and Western journalistic), overt and covert, military, terroristic, diplomatic, and propagandic, continuous, currently 90 year old, ongoing war against the country of the Jewish people…

      …*The bulk and core of the membership of the CIA was formed, soon after the end of World War II, with the recruitment, by then head of the CIA, Alan Dulles, to the newly formed CIA, of several thousand German former Nazi officials.»

      To understand the British governing class’s war against the Jewish people, read the The Rape of Palestine, by Howard Ziif (which was published in 1938 and which was banned by the British Government.). British government officials believed in the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” – they believed in a world-wide Jewish conspiracy to take over the world, and they feared and hated the Jewish people. In the 1920′s and 1930′s, the Jewish leaders of the Jewish liberation and national self-determination movement, when they were told about these things and about the mindset and intentions and actions of British officials referred to the information that was told to them as being an absurd fairy tale and refused to believe the information that was told to them, which was information that to anyone with normal abilities of social perception who were in the situation that Jewish people have always been in, and especially to people who where in the situation that they, the leaders of the Jewish liberation and national self-determination movement, were in and who had, like themselves, witnessed the actions of British officials in the British Mandate of Palestine, would have been obvious.

      Jewish people, and especially the leaders of the country of the Jewish people, Israel, need to wake up and join the real world, and need to start to speak up for themselves, and need to start to communicate honestly, accurately, clearly, effectively, and need to, thereby, protect themselves.

      The world runs on communication.

      “Overcome the angry by non-anger; overcome the wicked by goodness; overcome the miser by generosity; overcome the liar by truth.”

      – The Buddha

      • Daniel Bielak says:

        Correction:

        I wrote,

        “The Rape of Palestine, by Howard Ziif”

        which should be,

        “The Rape of Palestine, by William Ziff

  415. Daniel Bielak says:

    The Remedy

    The remedy is for Israeli Jewish people to join with, and to speak the truth to the world with, good-hearted loyal Israeli Arab people, and, most importantly, is for Jewish Israeli leaders to join with, and to speak the truth to the world with, good-hearted loyal Israeli Arab people.

    Salma Abdallah, Israeli Arab (Israeli Muslim Arab)

    Salma Abdallah interview with Laurie Roth, (Audio) * Very Important *
    http://www.shoebat.com/audio/salma.mp3
    Or
    Part 1 of 2: http://www.therothshow.com/demos/salma1.mp3
    Part 2 of 2: http://www.therothshow.com/demos/salma2.mp3

    “Israeli Arab Muslim Woman Speaks Out – Salma Abdallah”, by Nonie Darwish; includes a letter by Salma Abdallah
    http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=18441701390

    Ishmael Khaldi, Israeli Bedouin (Israeli Muslim Bedouin Arab), was deputy consul of the Consulate General of Israel to the Pacific Northwest in San Francisco, is author of autobiographical book A Shepherd’s Journey: the story of Israel’s first bedouin diplomat

    “Lost in the blur of slogans”, by Ishmael Khaldi; a rebuke to the organizers of, and participants in, the libelous racist genocide-inciting anti-Israeli now-yearly event called “Israel Apartheid Week” – which is an event of mass-propagation of obscene perverse lies that vilify the country of the Jewish people, and which is a rally of incitement to genocide against the country of the Jewish people – that is organized by Muslim Brotherhood front-groups and Western Leftists on the campuses of American colleges and universities, and which is participated in even by professors of those colleges and universities, which is sanctioned by the administrators of those colleges and universities, and which is facilitated by, and which occurs as part of the same effort of which a part of is, the propagation of lies that vilify the country of the Jewish people that many professors at those colleges and universities engage in as part of their classroom proceedings.
    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/03/04/EDRP168GMT.DTL

    “MENSCHLife TV Interview – Khaldi Part 1 of 2″, (Video) Ishmael Khaldi, interview with David Grossman, March 2010 * Very Important *
    Part 1 of 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjM8EX8SJyg
    Part 2 of 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6FIF0bnn4g

    “Israel: Nakba, Ethnic Cleansing and Palestinian Resistance” (modified mirrored version), (Video (length: 3min 45sec)) video clip (posted by YouTube user JoniversityMirror) that is a slightly shortened copy of a video (posted by YouTube user Joniversity) that is constituted mainly of excerpts of a talk called “Israel Through the Eyes of an Israeli Muslim” given by Ishmael Khaldi at the Commonwealth Club of California in San Francisco, California, in 2007 * Very Important *
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e417OcLaBS4

    “Israel Through the Eyes of an Israeli Muslim”, (Video (length: 1hr 5min 4sec)) Talk by Ishmael Khaldi, deputy Israeli Consulate General; the talk was given at The Commonwealth Club of California in San Francisco, California, in 2007 * Very Important *
    http://fora.tv/2007/05/31/Israel_Through_the_Eyes_of_an_Israeli_Muslim

    The Web Site of Ishmael Khaldi
    http://www.ishmaelkhaldi.com/

    Muhammad Khaldi, Israeli Bedouin (Israeli Muslim Bedouin Arab), father of Ishmael Khaldi

    “A visit to a Bedouin Arab home”, (Video) “A 3 minute 45 second chat with Muhammad Khaldi in Khawalid, a Bedouin Arab village in northern Israel, and his son Ishmael Khaldi, who is the deputy consul of the Consulate General of Israel to the Pacific Northwest in San Francisco.”
    http://vimeo.com/1687151

    Khaled Abu Toameh, Israeli Arab (Israeli Muslim Arab) journalist

    “What Does ‘Pro-Palestinian’ Really Mean?”, by Khaled Abu Toameh
    http://www.hudson-ny.org/921/what-does-pro-palestinian-really-mean

    “Israeli Arabs: Not ‘Fifth Column’”, by Khaled Abu Toameh
    http://www.hudson-ny.org/945/israeli-arabs-not-fifth-column

    “For Israel’s Arabs It Is Not Apartheid”, by Khaled Abu Toameh; In this article Khaled Abu Toameh rebukes and refutes Arab Israeli members of the Knesset who commit treasonous acts, including, going to countries outside of Israel and in those countries spewing lies that vilify Israel, and who are never rebuked nor punished by the bodies of the government of Israel, and, in this article, Khaled Abu Toameh says that Arab citizens of Israel are happy living in Israel and are happy being citizens of Israel and says that Israeli Arab people want to feel fully part of Israeli society, and in this article Khaled Abu Toameh criticizes and admonishes the members of the government of Israel for allowing unequal infrastructure investment, and public service needs, such as education, between the Jewish population of Israel and the Arab population of Israel by the Israeli government, and write the following. “The best way to undermine radicals like this Knesset member is by offering the Arab citizens equal services and full rights. Yes, Israel is not an apartheid state. But Israel must wake up and start dealing seriously with the problems of the Arab minority before it is too late.”; I think that what Khaled Abu Toameh is trying to communicate to Israeli Jewish people and to the members of the government of Israel in his criticism of, and urging of, and recommendation to, the government of Israel may be right, but it needs to be said that considering the racist intendedly genocidal Islamic-Supremacist continuous ongoing war that the Arab states and the leaders of the organizations of the racist intendedly genocidal anti-Jewish so-called “Palestinian” movement have been waging against Israel since several decades before Israel was officially established as a country, the granting of the equal rights to Arab citizens of Israel that are granted to the Arab citizens of Israel is very good – extraordinarily good – is an example of goodness that is not, nor that has ever been, parallelled nor surpassed by any other nation that exists, nor that has ever existed, in the world.

    “What About The Arab Apartheid?”, by Khaled Abu Toameh
    http://www.hudson-ny.org/1111/what-about-the-arab-apartheid

    “The Palestinians’ Dirty War”, by Khaled Abu Toameh
    http://www.hudson-ny.org/1143/the-palestinians-dirty-war

    “The Palestinians: The Real Traitors”, by Khaled Abu Toameh
    http://www.hudson-ny.org/1343/the-palestinians-the-real-traitors

    “Palestinians in the Arab World: Why the Silence?”, by Khaled Abu Toameh
    http://www.hudson-ny.org/1422/palestinians-in-arab-world

    “Arabs and Muslims Run to Israel”, by Khaled Abu Toameh
    http://www.hudson-ny.org/1433/arabs-and-muslims-run-to-israel

    “Israel’s Partners for Peace: What They Say in English vs. What They Say in Arabic”, by Khaled Abu Toameh
    http://www.hudson-ny.org/1539/palestinians-english-vs-arabic

    “Will Abbas, Too, Order Hamas to Carry Out Terror Strikes?”, by Khaled Abu Toameh
    http://www.hudson-ny.org/1582/abbas-hamas-terror-strikes

    • Daniel Bielak says:

      Prof. Landes,

      Please do not post the long comment (with the very many links) that I submitted and which is awaiting moderation, and to which this comment is a reply to (and please remove, or, if it is not posted after I submit it, please do not post, this comment).

      I posted several subsequent comments containing most of the content of the long content. I did so because the long comment was not posted by the automatic server immediately after I submitted it (I presume because the number of links it contained was above a limit) and was, instead, held in waiting to be moderated.

      I prefer the content in the several shorter comments that the content in the long comment, and I do not want to have multiple instances of content that I posted posted on the blog here.

  416. Daniel Bielak says:

    Salma Abdallah, Israeli Arab (Israeli Muslim Arab)

    Salma Abdallah interview with Laurie Roth, (Audio)
    http://www.shoebat.com/audio/salma.mp3
    Or
    Part 1 of 2: http://www.therothshow.com/demos/salma1.mp3
    Part 2 of 2: http://www.therothshow.com/demos/salma2.mp3

    “Israeli Arab Muslim Woman Speaks Out – Salma Abdallah”, by Nonie Darwish; includes a letter by Salma Abdallah
    http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=18441701390

    Israeli Arab Muslim Woman Speaks Out – Salma Abdallah

    by Nonie Darwish – Arabs For Israel on Thursday, April 24, 2008 at 8:19am

    Born in Israel, to Palestinian parents, she attended a Catholic school and grew up in a vibrant mixed cultural and religious neighborhood populated by Christians, Muslims and Jews – all Israelis. In this mixed community of immigrants hailing from many countries of both Europe and the Middle East, Salma learned basic values, humanitarian lessons and survival skills.

    Some of her closest confidants were, on the one hand, Jewish Holocaust survivors, and on the other hand, Arabs who originated in Jordan and Egypt. In this dynamic human cauldron, growing up as a Palestinian Arab in the cultural melting pot of Israel, Salma learned the complexities of interpersonal relations and coming to terms with being a bi-racial product of the Middle East.

    Living in two cultures, as a young person she gained vital lessons on how to face life realistically and courageously. Welcomed in Jewish homes, she was also cared for and protected by Jews. From this early experience she concluded that co-existence was not only possible but desirable, if a diverse Middle East is to work. “This takes compromise and sacrifice – but it will be worth it in the end, ” said Salma. “We have much to learn from each other.”

    According to Salma, “democracy is possible in the Middle East, but this will require much experimentation and considerable time to adapt it to the Arab experience and mind-set. It is something that I believe in strongly and feel that it can work. I saw how Israeli’s created a vibrant democracy, even though hardly any of them had come from countries where democracy was known or practiced.”

    Some 25 years ago Salma’s family relocated to the U.S.. she studied Spanish and also psychology, because she wanted to gain a better insight into people’s mentality as well as get closer to the community in which she lived. “I went to college with the daughter of the PLO ambassador to the UN at the time. He was a very nice and objective man, and I never heard him or his family condone violence. I also never heard them condemn it.”

    As a proud Muslim woman, Salma believes that coming to terms with realities is of utmost importance today. She councils her Muslim community to accept the existence of the State of Israel and see the positive values that derive from its being a part of the Middle East. She also encourages Muslims to take responsibility for mistakes made in the past and not to blame others, like Jews, Israelis, Americans and so forth. And finally she advises them to deal with the problems within their communities and to take responsibility for improving their own culture, education and community life.

    Salma takes this message of empowerment to mosques, churches and synagogues, as well as to high schools and college campuses, and to many diverse organizations and public forums. She brings her hope for peace and coexistence, and her belief in the future, to TV and radio audiences, and is often interviewed in leading newspaper and publications. She is a person who lives with faith in a better future for all.

    What Salma says about Israel and the Conflict:
    –”We are very happy being Israeli Arabs”
    –”Israel has so much freedom of speech even more so than even in America”
    –”Islam the way it is being taught in the Middle East is wrapped in arrogance and is medieval”
    –” When Islam is all you have and the way it is taught, it becomes easy to hate when you have no pride in your own life”
    –”The [Arab Leaders] made all this money because of the Palestinian issue which they created”
    –”The Arabs asked us to leave Israel/Palestine in 1948 and promised our retun in 15 days so they could destroy the Jews”
    –” Who are we kidding ourselves, we never had a Palestine nation or a country”
    –”Israeli Arabs are the only Arabs that have any rights anywhere in the Middle East”
    _____________________________________________________________
    Here is her story in her own words:
    It never really occurred to me that my life was special in any way. In fact, for most of my younger years I felt pretty ordinary. I was born and raised in Haifa, Israel. As a young girl I lived in a diverse neighborhood. My next door neighbor was a Holocaust survivor. Two doors down lived the Rabbi of the Elyahu Hanavi Temple and his wife, while on the other side lived an elder Christian Arab woman and her three sons. All the children played together and the girls were always in charge. We simply out numbered the boys and that was a logical enough reason for us to be the leaders.

    Golda Meir was a role model for many young girls and I was no exception I was fortunate to meet her as a 9 years old when she was Prime Minister. She was as strong as she was as gentle. She perfected the art of being powerful while maintaining her womanhood and being a mother figure for us all. Not too many women can achieve this while ruling a nation.

    Although young Arab girls are always told that they must behave in a certain way, Israeli society around me did not dictate it. We knew when to be proper and when we had the freedom to be ourselves because gender equality was a way of life in Israel. Freedom of expression, a consummate democratic ideal was also part of our daily lives. I remember protesters chanting in Arabic and complaining about the economic conditions in Israel. Many Arabs would sit at the dinner table and discuss issues such as the West Bank problem, the 1948 war and what lead up to it and the way they felt about the government. Some opinions were favorable and some were not.

    After moving to the US and meeting Arabs from a different world than mine, I realized how privileged I was. Unfortunately, the Arab women I met didn’t have the strength of an Israeli woman’s will. We have strong opinions and the stubbornness to pursue it. Israeli women, especially those from Haifa, are very focused on their goals. We know what we want and we know how to achieve it. No, it is not the Mediterranean Sea water that influenced our perseverance, it was the freedom of choice that living in Israel provided.

    In meeting Arabs in the US, I was appalled at the lack of independent thinking. The women were not without opinions but were completely content to have someone dictate to them how to think. I knew that I would have a hard time accepting that attitude.

    I looked for more Arab girls like me. But my search was to no avail. They stared at me as if I had six heads, every time I brought up the subject of a woman who can think outside the box.

    I also discovered Arabs do not like to discuss Politics outside the box either. It is unheard of to stray away from the herd. Independent thinking is frowned upon. I started doubting myself. Is something wrong with me? What makes me the way I am? For example, why do I not hate Jews? Why, despite issues that need to be addressed to create more equality for Israeli Arabs, do I insist on speaking favorable of my Jewish neighbors as well as Israel? My opinions were too radical for Arab political thought, and most certainly for Arab women. For me to express these thoughts as a woman is almost blasphemy. I was told over and over again that I must not have such strong opinions and should never voice them.

    So what made me so objective? I guess I never really thought about it until people started asking me this question. “What allows me to speak so freely of the good and the bad on both sides of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.” Palestinians from all over the world have contacted me and told me that they wanted to say the same things but didn’t really have the courage to speak out. They thanked me for being an inspiration to them. I was surprised that I received such a positive response to something that was largely denied by other Arabs. What I said was … The Palestinian refugee problem and the escalation of the Palestinian situation is largely the fault of the Arab world and not Israel.

    I am asked repeatedly by Palestinians where do I get the courage and the strength to make statements like this. I had to think deeply about this question. Is in genetic? Maybe? After much self examination and comparing myself with other Arabs, I came to a stunning conclusion. I am not an ordinary Arab woman. I am an Israeli Arab woman. I am one of only 1,000,000 privileged Arabs who have the opportunity to live in a democracy in the Middle East. Can things be better and is there room for change? Of course!!! But in a democracy change is possible! That is why I am who I am today. I have opinions and the convictions to voice them. And I have will and the knowledge to use it! After all, I had an extraordinary life and extraordinary experiences that formed and informed me.

    Salma Abdallah

    Comments

    Zahava Miriam Zer baruch

    hashem! thank u for speaking out for all of the arabs who are afraid to do so for fear of death or other punishment.

    may u live to 120!
    April 24, 2008 at 12:26pm

    —-

    Uri Silberman

    Good on you! Keep up the good work and continue spreading your all important message!
    April 26, 2008 at 5:10pm · Report

    —-

    Hila Halwany

    you should be our prime minister!
    July 30, 2008 at 11:40am · Report

    —-

    Shlomo Dror

    I applaud every individual from the Mid-East, Muslim or Christian, Arab or other, who can speak in terms of respect for others, interest in dialogue, dedication to peaceful reconciliation.
    Why aren’t there more people willing to speak up?
    September 23, 2008 at 6:11am · Report

    —-

    Dov Joselowitz

    You are 1 in 1,000,00
    December 19, 2009 at 9:41am · Report

    —-

    Ariel Ben Kohen

    A voice of obvious intelligence combined with sound reason. We should all aspire to attain this level of understanding and objectivity.You Miss Abdallah are as much an insperation as Golda wasMay you and your house be blessed with a peace beond measure. ay we all begin to honestly seek this same peace.
    January 8 (2010) at 12:40pm

    —-

  417. Daniel Bielak says:

    Ishmael Khaldi, Israeli Bedouin (Israeli Muslim Bedouin Arab), was deputy consul of the Consulate General of Israel to the Pacific Northwest in San Francisco, is author of autobiographical book A Shepherd’s Journey: the story of Israel’s first bedouin diplomat

    “Lost in the blur of slogans”, by Ishmael Khaldi, published in the San Francisco Chronicle, Wednesday, March 4, 2009; In the article, Ishmael Khaldi rebukes the organizers of, and participants in, the libelous racist genocide-inciting anti-Israeli now-yearly event called “Israel Apartheid Week” – which is an event of mass-propagation of obscene perverse lies that vilify the country of the Jewish people, and which is a rally of incitement to genocide against the country of the Jewish people – that is organized by Muslim Brotherhood front-groups (mainly the Muslim Brotherhood front-group the Muslim Student Association (MSA)) and Western Leftist student anti-Israeli political organizations on the campuses of American colleges and universities, and which is an event that is sanctioned by the administrators of those colleges and universities, and which is an event that is facilitated by, and which occurs as part of the same effort of which a part of is, the propagation of lies that vilify the country of the Jewish people that many professors at those colleges and universities engage in as part of their classroom proceedings.
    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/03/04/EDRP168GMT.DTL

    “MENSCHLife TV Interview – Khaldi”, (Video; in two parts; Parts 1 and 2) Ishmael Khaldi, interview with David Grossman, Toronto, Canada, March 2010
    Part 1 of 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjM8EX8SJyg
    Part 2 of 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6FIF0bnn4g

  418. Daniel Bielak says:

    “Israel Through the Eyes of an Israeli Muslim”, (Video (length: 1hr 5min 4sec); and Transcript) Talk by Ishmael Khaldi, deputy Israeli Consulate General; talk was given at The Commonwealth Club of California in San Francisco, California, May 31, 2007; * Very Important To View and Listen to *
    Video: http://fora.tv/2007/05/31/Israel_Through_the_Eyes_of_an_Israeli_Muslim
    Transcript: http://fora.tv/fora/fora_transcript_pdf.php?cid=1091

  419. Daniel Bielak says:

    The Web Site of Ishmael Khaldi
    http://www.ishmaelkhaldi.com/

    Muhammad Khaldi, Israeli Bedouin (Israeli Muslim Bedouin Arab), father of Ishmael Khaldi

    “A visit to a Bedouin Arab home”, (Video) “A 3 minute 45 second chat with Muhammad Khaldi in Khawalid, a Bedouin Arab village in northern Israel, and his son Ishmael Khaldi, who is the deputy consul of the Consulate General of Israel to the Pacific Northwest in San Francisco.”
    http://vimeo.com/1687151

  420. Daniel Bielak says:

    Khaled Abu Toameh, Israeli Arab (Israeli Muslim Arab) journalist

    “Israeli Arabs: Not ‘Fifth Column’”, by Khaled Abu Toameh
    http://www.hudson-ny.org/945/israeli-arabs-not-fifth-column

    “For Israel’s Arabs It Is Not Apartheid”, by Khaled Abu Toameh
    http://www.hudson-ny.org/1102/for-israels-arabs-it-is-not-apartheid

    “Israel’s Partners for Peace: What They Say in English vs. What They Say in Arabic”, by Khaled Abu Toameh
    http://www.hudson-ny.org/1539/palestinians-english-vs-arabic

    “Will Abbas, Too, Order Hamas to Carry Out Terror Strikes?”, by Khaled Abu Toameh
    http://www.hudson-ny.org/1582/abbas-hamas-terror-strikes

  421. Eliyahu says:

    Here is a link to Nidra Poller’s article on how Charles Enderlin’s new book justifying his role in the al-Durah hoax is being protected from hostile reviews [by limiting distribution of review copies] and how there will be no book launch news conference at which unsuitable questions might be asked.

    http://www.newenglishreview.org/custpage.cfm/frm/73973/sec_id/73973

  422. Daniel Bielak says:

    I’ve made a YouTube channel which – with text, and with videos posted on YouTube by other YouTube users – presents the factual current reality of, and much of the factual history of, of the current situation.

    The following is the address of the YouTube channel.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/DanielBielak
    or
    http://www.youtube.com/user/danielbielak
    or
    http://www.youtube.com/danielbielak

    Dan

  423. [...] are self-degrading. Such a designation for Jews whom some call self-hating, the alter-Juifs, the  scourges, gets at a key element of their behavior. Rather than identify their driving emotion – [...]

  424. Isaac Haskiya says:

    Who cares about all this empty talk. Whatever you call them it´s nothing that cannot be cured by 39 lashes! Not 40!

  425. This is one of the best and most psychologically penetrating articles i have read in the Augean Stables up to now.

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